Bob White

You might consider not asking for money for two things in one night. Rather than do FOS the same night you tell how much summer camp will cost or how much that high adventure trip will cost. Pick a COH when you aren't seeking other funds. The thing that makes the biggest difference is the attitude of the unit leaders. If you don't appreciate the good things that happen when the council has a healthy financial base then chances that you will be able to help achieve a successful FOS contribution from the unit is doubtful. FOS is not a fact of life in every council. It is however a fact of life in the vast majority. Depending on the local resources it can be a very large chunk of a council's annual budget or just frosting on the cake. Either way your local scouting community deserves your financial support.

Along with youth and adult recognitions a court of honor is an excellent time to share important Unit information with parents and scouts alike on a quarterly basis. As a Scoutmaster I routinely had guest speakers at our COH, local juvenile court judges, paramedics, State Representatives, Military officers, Mayors, police and fire fighters. We had 4 scheduled meetings a year when we had parents undeided attention and we made the most of that opportunity.

If no one actually commands anyone then why would you want to call it a "chain of command"?

My apologies to Beavah for misattributing that quote to him. It was in fact Jblake who said it, and I apologize for the error. On the other hand Beavah, no one is blaming the scoutmaster. Stateing who has responsibility for facilitating the program is not the same as blaming someone. Blaming suggests that they did somthing wrong and you are assigning fault. Saying that the Scoutmaster is responsibile for training development is simpling identifying the primary role of the scoutmaster. There is no blame involved. Whether the SM does a good job or a bad one he or she is still the person responsible for the task. And yes Basic training does cover the Patrol Method. In fact New Leader Essentials discussess the Patrol Method. The are numerous resources available to now or experienced Scout leadrs to help them understand and utilize the Methods of each program, the thing that doesn't seem to be sinking in with some folks is that it will usually take more than one resources to understnd the big picture and it can take a lot of practice to get good at it, depending on what skills your already have or how quickly you learn them.

I am not aware of any rule requiring District or Council meetings to be open to anyone other than Committee members and invited guests. On the other hand I have never heard of anyone not being allowed to attend who was not a member, unless there was a concern that their presence would disrupt the meeting.

"Once your group reaches performing doesn't mean you should just sit and watch, then you as a leader are no longer needed why even have a leader? And there is no fun in it. Going over the troop/patrol with harder tasks in the same area helps them form even once reaching the performing stage. Always stay with your group as a leader or a member you shouldn't be just standing on the sidelines. Michael you might want to discuss that with a mentor or one of your NYLT faculty. You have some innacuracies in or perhaps misunderstanding of the team dynamic model. As an example as the leader its important to know that forming takes place, and you need to know ways that you can hlepo a team move throughthe storming and norming fazes. You also want to know wwhat causes a group to recylcle to the forming or storming stages BUT it is certainly not something that as a leaderfd you would want to purposely induce. As a side bar, simply increasing the skill level of a task for a performing team is unlikely to revert back to the forming stage, more likely it would only go to a norming stage until it moved back to a performing one. A group normally only reverts back to a forming stage when a change takes place within the membership of the group. Again, having a local mentor to discuss these things with could be very helpful to you as you practice and apply these concepts.

I believe that are refering to Pre-Trial Intervention. A service that some communities have that offer alternative rehabilitative services for first time offenders. It is a court service and not a scouting service. If the court has such services available and wishes to use them that's fine, but it has nothing to do with the responsibility of the the unit to the boy or the boy to the unit. As for reporting it to the Council, in the case I mentioned we did that because it was a council event and not a unit event. There are specific situations mentioned in the Guide to Safe Scouting where the council must be informed but they were not included in OneHour's post. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Certanily recognition is a big part of of a coh but it is also an opportunity for a group meeting with the parents 4 times a year to share major troop communications. Youth Protection, Summercamp promotion, annual program plan, popcorn kickoff, certainly health and safety concerns are an acceptable issue. Of course each unit can choose how effective they want this opportunity to speak with the parents and scouts as a group to be.

"I never said anything even vaguely like that" Sure you did beavuh, You wrote "Being an effective leader has very little to do with being an effective patrol leader. Once the boy turns 18, there's not going to be much demand for one's patrol leader skills. " That is more than just "vaguely like that". Now that may not be waht you meant, but it is surely what you wrote. The leadership training in the past was effective at the time because it taught the best information available at that time. It wasn't that long ago that the existence of atoms was just a theory and so that is what was taught at the time. Then times changed and the atom was split so the instruction changed. Wood shaft golf clubs were used by everyone because at the time that was the best technology there was. But times changed and I doubt anyone will argue that todays technology gives the golfer a greater advanctage than the old one shafts. There are countless examples of that, and the area of leadership is no different. The skills taught today are different than 40 years ago because we no longer live 40 years ago. We develop and learn and things change. To say that TLT does not give a scout all the skills they need is to say that elementary school doesn't give you all the skills you need. Of course it doesn't it was never meant to, it is a beginning not an end. The BSA is does not have the ultimate responsibility to teach leadership in the unit you serve, that's the scoutmaster's job. The BSA provides resources, and they provide lots of them. It is up to the local unit leader to get the job done.

You should check with your local council scout executive. It was my understanding that these rules are in regard to unit trips and not to individuals driving to troop meetings. The automobile rules listed in the Guide to Safe Scouting are re-printed from the Tours and Expeditions Guide which is related to unit trips and to individuals going to scouting events outside of the unit level.

I see this as a learning opportunity. Schedule a court of honor. Then have as surprise guest speakers an emergency room doctor and a police officer. Have each give graphic detailed reports on the dangers of hood surfing, then inform the parents that it has come to the troops attention that there are scouts in this unit who participate in this activity. Let them know that you are deeply concerned for their safety and about the choices they are making. Suggest that each parent go home after the meeting and have a serious discussion with their child about this, and not to think that "it can't be my son" because then they will find out for sure when the call comes from the police, or the emergency room...or the coroner's office.

It's hard getting on a District committee? I must say that I have never heard that before. My family once relocated 1000 miles from our home, We flew out one weekend to house hunt and by lunch on the first day I was asked to be the District Roundtable Commissioner. I honestly don't think there is anything easier to accomplish in scouting then getting on a district committee.

The training given the scout at NYLT (the replacement of JLT) is done in variety of ways including practical application. Yes, scouts learn a lot by observing but what some leaders fail to understand is that the scouts are not just watching the older junior leaders, they are primarily watching how the adults lead. This is why in scouting the most important training is done through coaching and mentoring, It's a subtle series of observation followed by a pat on the back. Sometimes it's a nudge forward and sometimes its a small nudge to the side to get them back on track. But by and large how you treat junior leaders will determine how they treat those they lead. Leadership development is not taught by the BSA at any level as being "take this class and go lead". The group instruction teaches general concepts. The activities of the troop, patrol, team, or crew, provide the application and practice opportunity. The observations and evaluations by the adult leader resuting in coaching and mentoring is the bulk of instruction. Leadership development is constant and neverending. And it is your leadership ability and action as the adult that will have the greatest affect on the scout.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Whether or not a new leader could "pull off" such an event would depend on the skill set of that individual. Just because he or she was newly registered tells you nothing of their experience or abilities in event planning or in event administration. Would it be a good ticket item? Mmmm maybe but probably not. The District camporee is under the control of the District activities committee. Since there is no guarantee that the commitee would select this particular person to be the event chairman or even choose his specific unit as host then using this as one of his or her ticket goals would not fit the SMART guidelines of goal setting since the participant has no control over it. If the participant were a member of the district activities committee and had a goal of using the skills he has learned to chair a camporee then that would be different, as it would be relevant to their role in scouting and attainable since they are on that specific committee. The goals you set should to be specfic to your role in scouting. Let's say you were an Assistant Scoutmaster for New Scout Patrols. What is your vision of success in that position? What would be some specific goals you would like to achieve in that position? Make them specific, measurable, achievable, relevant to your position, and a have time table for achieving it. Example: I will work with the troop guide to develop a written 12-month plan to teach, practice, and test the requirememnts for Tenterfoot to First Class, and I will have the plan written by January 1,2009. That could be 1 goal within the ticket. But again you might be in troop that already has a written plan like this and so then it would not be a good ticket item. It all depends on your specific role and the specific needs of the group you serve.

In my area as a youth scout in the 60's it was as described. Still the fact is that you are a member of the councuil regardless of what towmn within the council you live. It simply is not cost effective to have a different shoulder strip for every town that has a unit.

First, let's remember that Leadership Development Method and the Patrol Method are two separate but related methods used as tools to achieve the aims of scouting. The leadership skills a scout learns are derived from the adult leadership's use of the Leadership Development Method. Those skills can be easily practiced and applied when a scout leader employs the Patrol Method of operation within the unit. I would strongly disagree with Beavah that the leadership skills a scout learns cannot be applied outside of scouting. In fact I think horse hockey would be putting it mildly. Anyone who feels that what they are teaching scouts will become useless the moment the youth leaves scouts is either teaching the wrong thing, or teaching it wrong, or perhaps not teaching anything at all. The fundamentals of the Patrol Method are quite simple. Small groups of scouts of similar ages and interest, under the leadership of a member of their group that they select, gather to learn and practice the skills and values of scouting. The fundementals of developing leadership are just as simple. The elected or selected youth leaders under the coaching and counseling of adults learn the elements of servant leadership and how to lead small groups to get a job done while maintaining the structure of the group. They practice these skills while participating in patrol and troop activities. That is pretty darn simply to understand. Doing it can be very simple as well, or it can be very difficult. Like with any other activity different people come to scouting with different skill sets. Some will understand these methods and be able to function effectively with very little assistance. Some will require a little training and a little practice. Some a lot of training and a lot of practice. Others will never get. It depends on the individual NOT the program. This is why charter organizations need to select and recruit the right people for the job. Wanting to be a scout leader, or being willing to be a scout leader, is not enough. Like any other job you need to select someone capable of doing the work.

Actually they were called "Community Strips" and they existed because the community was the council. Then as communities merged into larer councils they became council patches. In some areas where the council population is wide spread, sometines encompassing an entire state, it would not be cost effective for the members to have community strips, customized to each town within the council. Besides the purpose of the patch is not to show the town the scout lived in but the Council in which he or she represents. If you think there is a clamor because of something as benign as a sleeve pocket, imagine the tempest that would result if you tried to do away with decorative council shoulder patches or OA pocket flaps. The reason the emblems are not made of the same material as the shirt is that they would be difficut to embellish with either embroider or silk screen and they would be even more difficult to sew on. Be careful thinking that was old was better, steel buttons held on by cotter pins that had to be removed and then reattached before and after washing, colored ribbons to represent patrols that were easily damaged or lost, emblems that were made of felt, merit badges with unfinished edges that had to be hemmed over when sewing, knee socks with garter belts..ahh the good old days. They weren't nearly as good as some people would lead you to believe. Some of us posted in the past that the people who complained about the current uniform would complain about whatever the new would be as well. It hasn't even hit the market and those same people are complaining about it. That proves the real problem is not the uniform. Let's try to remember what the purpose of the uniform is in scouting.

I was not harsh to Eamonn, we simply see this differently. Venividi is spot on, and I am not playng God I am playing Scout Leader. I am not judging his right to a heavenly reward, I was one of the people involved in determining what was best for the scouts entrusted to me. A person does not just go from being a person of values and suddenly decide "hey I think I'll bring marijuana on a scout outing". Lets be real about this. This youth abandoned his scouting values the moment he made the decsion to get the dope. Just the same as a youth with membership in scouting who decides to shoplift quit being a scout not when he got caught, but when he made the decision to walk in the store and steal from the owner.

I don't think anyone disagrees that a strong program helps drive membership growth and that membership growth brings benefits at many different levels. BUT Sven, you pointed out yourself that program happens at the unit level. If your goal is to help improive program so that scouting membership grows I would recommend you get on the Roundtable or training staff.

There are far more do-dads for the Scout uniform today then there were 40+ years ago. Is the BSA to only get rid of the ones YOU don't like?

"Maybe I'm a little guilty of trying to do everything possible to save every Scout?" That would depend I suppose on your definition of a "Scout".

perhaps the best model to represent how scouting works is the structure of the United Nations. Independent entities with a wide variety of history, politics and culture working together for a common good, some countries with a little more say than others. Of course the difference is that in scouting we actually get things done.

I am tickled by people who wanted a more "outdoorsish" uniform that is light weight AND durable but they still want to hang as many do dads on it as they can. I think it would be wrong to assume that all the adornments of the past uniform will be retained on this new design. It would appear from what we have seen so far that this will be a lower key, more subtle uniform look. It is very possible that the adornments of the past will either be changed in size and appearance or perhaps dropped completely in favor of this more untilitarian design.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

hmmmm dangerous chemicals and 7 year olds in close proximity....sure sounds like a dandy idea! I am sure your intentions are not to frighten small children or to possibly injure them but simply to stage a memorable ceremony. While the visual effect might seem noteworthy the risk seems too high. Why not bring up the scouts and parents and YOU reach in the pot for them. The kids will still enjoy the effect and the ceremony but you take all the risks. Seems a fair compromise.

Actually If you wish to be accurate with the business comparison and with the contents of the BSA's Troop Committee Guide the Charter organization representative is the CEO of Scouting for the charter organization. (The Scoutmaster is more like a division manager). John in KC is correct in stating that the chain of command as suggested by MichaelOA is not accurate, and for the most part is truly not a part of the official program as it is designed. Scouting is designed like a government with specific roles that work together for a common cause. Sone of these position hold checks and balances over others in specific circumstances. Yes, there are some positions that have specific authorities over others, but a chain of command model does not apply itself well when explaining relationships of positions in Scouting. Michael you are not finding a chain of command anywhere because scouting is not designed to be administrated in that fashion. What specifically led you to seek a "chain of command"?