Bob White

NOWHERE does the BSA say that a unit should have a campout a month, That again is an error in your knowledge of what the Scouting program is. The suggestion made by the BSA is that a scout unit should do an "outdoor activity a month". That can be a day hike, an outdoor troop meeting, a day at a local pool or any number of other outdoor activities. What that activity is should be determined by the decision of the PLC. There is nothing magical about 300ft that cannot be accomplished in 100 ft or 299 ft or any other distance allowed by the topography of the camp location. The Patrol method simply support s the patrols being as independent as possible. There was no rant. I took you argument point by point and addressed it using the actual Boy Scout Program. You are welcome to try and counter my points using the same technique. Just because I and thousands of others understand the program it does not make us apologists, just trained and practiced. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Sven You should understand that there are over three hundred independent councils in the BSA and that their District and Council boards change constantly and have since the inception of the council structure about 92 years ago. While the attitude experienced by Awesome1 may be indicative if his particular community it is by no means a sought after standard in all councils nor is it a recommended practice from the BSA. Not all people follow the scouting values at the unit level or at the council level. These are still just ordinary people and not all people are pleasant. Being a member of the BSA makes you eligible to serve at any level, but it is not a guarantee that you will be asked, approved, invited, or even elected. You offered your help and so far there are no takers, That does not mean you have to stop asking or that they will never invite you. It's a little like fishing, you dangled the bait but that does not guarantee you will get a bite. A good fishman knows how to be patient, improve you bait, try different waters, go after different fish, or simply wait and go fishing another day. You cannot make the fish like you just by insisting or complaining. I don't think your goals are crazy, I do however think your approach is...unusual. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

No one said directing was not one of the stuyles of leadership or that it did not have appropriate applications. That has nothing to do with servant leadership. Was Moses having the Israelites follow what he said in order to enrich himself or did he lead the isrealites in order that they would benefit. Your understanding of the new testament is just as shakey it would seem. Was Jesus' purpose as a leader to enrich himself or to benfit those he lead? Servant Leadership. You will also see that Jesus only rarely used the directed leadership style. In fact if you follow the development of the Apostles as a team you will see not only the Storming, Forming, Norming and Performing stages of team development, but you can see the transition in leadership style that Jesus uses with them as he goes from Directing, to Coaching, to Pursuading, to Delegating, matching his leadership style to the stage of development of the team. Its really quite interesting. But of course in order to see those changes you would need to understand the concepts that define them. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

That's just being argumentative, and ignores the obvious point of the post, but if you really want to take that approach, I would not register a Lone Scout who I knew was a drug pusher... would you?.

"No, they get in each other's way because it is nine trying to do a job for three." NINE! before it was just 6, now you've decided to add three more scouts to the scenario. No matter, because you don't know that is what will happen. You have chosen to think the worst of the scouts before they have even attempted the task. Not the attitude a good leader would ever take. You need to realize that as long as they are working together for a common positive goal it's a good thing. Teamwork requires practice and this is how patrols practice. If they are squabbiling and do not get the fire built then they learn that by not working together they do not get as much accomplished. Thats not a bad lesson to learn. I however have confidence that if the scouts all wanted to do a job together that they will do just fine, and either the SPL or I will be willing to stand in the shadows and watch so that we can be ready to congratulate them for the job they did, or later the SPL can coach the PL on how he can get the job done better in the future. You really do not get the whole youth leadership and Patrol Method thing. While I an willing to bet I probably have more unit leadership experience than you it is irrelevant to the issue. A leader with only two years experience that understands and follows the program is a better leader and will do a better job of achieving the mission of scouting than someone who does not understand the program or has not followed it for decades. Tenure is not as important as ability.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Your are right to be concerned about the health of scouts in your care at temperature extremes whether too hot or too cold. Here are some things to help keep the activities fun and safe. * Know what the health dangers are for high heat conditions and know what symptoms to watch for. * Have the first aid equipment on hand for the various heat related health issues and have enugh for more than one victim. * Have your staff at all the program areas trained to watch for signs of heat related illnesess and have the respond to them immediately. * Be procative... remind scouts and parents to apply sunblock frequently. Have cooling stations available where people can get shade and a place to rest. A childs pool with chairs seated around it allows people to soak their feet in cool water to help reduce the effects of the heat. Misting stations can be a great fun way to help people beat the heat. * Be careful, it is possible to drink too much water even on a hot day. A good rule of thumb is if your are sweating and not having difficulty urinating then you are hydrated normallly. Drink when thirsty. * Don't sweat it if you see people sweating it is the body's way to cool itself. The concern is when it's hot and they aren't sweating that it is the most dangerous. That can be caused by dehydration or by an extremely dry climate. * Be careful not to over-exert the kids or the adults. Allow plenty of time for relaxing and cooling down between activities. Hope this helps. BW

When I was a scoutmaster, by the time a scout was approaching his Eagle Rank I already knew him pretty well. My goal in the scoutmaster conference was to help him reflect on what he has meant to the troop and what scouting has helped him accomplish to this poiint. I wanted him to discover how special this accomplish was and allow him time to really appreciate the trail that got him to this point. I rarely asked can questions, each boy was different and so my approach was unique to each scout. It was a conversation and not a question and answer atmosphere. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Platoon Punishment? Who is being punished? Discipline at a court of honor? Who suggested the scouts be disciplined, and by what authority since it happened outsdide of scouting. We counsel scouts all the time about activities that are common among youth at their age and stage of developement. We talk about the dangers of drug usage, sexual abuse, alcohol use, tobacco, Internet use, fire arms, fireworks, etc.. But you think safe driving is off limits as a topic? How is that logical?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

So if you look at the lives of the people I mentioned who practiced servant leadership could you please explain how they were followers and not leaders?

hmmm.... would I knowingly grant membership in a scout unit to a drug pusher??? That's a tough one. I would have to say....NO. And I am confident I say that with the complete support of every parent, committee member, and charter organization member of any unit in any town that I have ever lived in. Would a boy have to be white, cute, clean faced, combed hair, and well dressed to be granted membership in a scout unit where I was a leader? No, and I am confident I say that with the complete support of every parent, committee member, and charter organization member of any unit in any town that I have ever lived in. What is a scout? A Scout is a registered member of a pack, troop, team, crew, or ship who tries to learn and live by the values of the Scout Oath and Law. After the young man STOPS selling drugs and other illegal actions, then he can seek membership in the unit I serve, but there is no way that anyone can rationalize that a person who sells illegal drugs is trying to live by the values of scouting.

GW this is such simple situation you bring up, and that's great because it helps show how simple the Patrol Method and Leadershiop Development Method are. So the whole patrol wants to work together as a team and put up the flag pole...and you see this as a problem? Patrols are supposed to want to work together GW, thats what teams do. So what is the worst that can happen? They get the job done faster because of the team work and then they all go do the fire ring. Good patrol leadership would have a duty roster of things that needed to be done and the patrol members would have deecided in advance who would do what. Performing patrols pitch in to get whatever work needs to be done without the need for a duty roster so that they have time to do other things together. Leaders understand that the majority of the work is done BEFORE and AFTER the activity so that during the activity they can observe evaluate and adjust. Take for instance a situation directly our oif the content pf the Scoutmaster Specific BASIC Training Before the Troop meeting the Scoutmaster meets with the SPL to review the agenda and see if the SPL needs anything prior to the meeting beginning. The meeting is then run by the SPL and the PLs and the Scoutmaster is in the background observing and evaluating. The Scoutmaster only speaks during the meeting at the end for the Scoutmasters's Minute. Then AFTER the meeting the SPL and the PLS gather for a quick reflection on what went well and what they can improve on nect week. The scoutmaster as couch/Mentor does his or her most active work before and after the meeting. Duroing it he observes and evaluates. so that outside of the meeting situation he can coach and mentor the junior leaders. We train the patrols leaders to do the same thing with the patrol. Most of their work for a campout should already be done before they arrive. Then they observe, evaluate, and adjust. They coach and mentor the members of the patrol to helps them work together for their own benefit. Notice, no telling or directing and No Chain of Command.

It's me I am so curious, what scout leader tarining have you attended? New Leader Essentials, Scoutmaster Specific, Wood Badge? 1. You don't have to convince the parents of anything, they are not the scouts. Your responsibility is to understand and deliver a scouting program to youth. 2. There is no such thing as a First Class First Year Program. There is a First Class Emphasis Program which is a planning program and not an advancement program. You wrote "Whether you believe this or not is immaterial. This I have made up my mind on." Ah yes! The old "my mind is made up don't confuse me with facts" defense. Not a good attitude if you ever hope to learn more than you think you already know. 3.How does a PL get a patrol outing on a troop calendar? One way is to represent the needs and wishes of his patrol at the PLC. Another option would be to not put in on the troop calendar but on a patrol calendar since it is only for his patrol and not the entire troop. You see its really not that hard to do. You say "There is no room for additional campouts" Who made that your decision? are you a member of the PLC. There is room for whatever they make room for. Who is dictating to them how many campouts the troop nust have? It seems you do not have a good understanding of the basics of the troop leadership structure or of the purpose and responsibilities of of the PLC. You wrote "I mean the 300' rule held up as some standard barer of a patrol system seems weak when the "troop" planned the event, they all drove together and will assemble together at 9:00 AM for opening ceremonies." HUH? First: There is no such rule in scouting nor is this "standard" taught in any current BSA program. It is a personal preference of a poster from a time long past. Good luck finding a variety of camp locations where that is always possible. Some parts of the country may still have aenough wilderness area available but in most places you will not have the luxury of that much space especially if you have more than just a few patrols. Secondly: While the troop PLC may have planned the event, the patrols are still separate functioning entities, They should be able to camp wherever the topography and the rules of the property they are on allows them. Thirdly:What does being 300ft apart have to do with how they got there or what time assembly is? That is an awful lot to be wrong about in just one sentence. That should tell you something about your current understanding of the program and the danger of your "my mind is made up" approach to being a "leader". 4. The standard time for patrols to meet DURING THE TROOP MEETING is 20 to 25 minutes. That does not mean that the patrol is not allowed to meet or communicate at other times. It is their patrol they can meet and plan whenever they want. I really don't see where you understand the Patrol Method at all. The problems you point out are not problems with the Scouting Methods they are problems with the unit you serve not utilizing or not understanding the Methods of the program. Ozemu While I appreciate your empathy with It's Me, I think it is important to recognize that you are in a different program and that you are not trained in the program methods of the BSA. Without you knowing what he is supposed to know it would seem impossible for you to compare what he is writing with the actual BSA program. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

So much misundwerstaning oand corruption of or concepts going on. first congrats top Brent and Avid for their understanding of the topioc at hand. Someone define "Conceptual Bankruptcy" please. No one, not even the BSA, says group indtruction is the most effective tool. it is simply one step in the learning process. It is one tool of many. Tell me. in a carpenters tool box what is "the most effective tool"? The purose of the SPL and PL handbook is not just as a learning aid on leadership styles, it also contains infornation on ubnit organization, unit operations, program planning, and job overviews. Judging the effectiveness of the leadership training be what page the words "leadership style" appears on is as silly as when another poster based a books effectivenes on how many time a word appeared. Whoever wrote the critique on "servant leadership" has the wrong definition of it to begin, with so the critique is flawed from the beginning. In a "master/servant" model, the servant reacts to the commands of the master for the benefit of the master. In a "servant leadership" model the leaders purpose is to help the people he or she leads to succeed and grow. A servant leaders concern is the welfare of those they lead rather than for their own glory. It's Me, do you believe that concept to be "conceptually bankrupt" as the author you quoted does? If so I would like you to explain what you see as the flaw in the lives of Moses, Jesus Christ, Ghandi, Mother Theresa, and the scores of other people in a multitude of cultures, that based their lives on servant leadership.

Certainly different situations require a different style of leadership, but telling or directing is certainly not the only one available to you, nor is it the right one for every situation. If the rattle snake patrol wants to put up a flag pole in their patrol site why should that keep the sqirrels from putting one up in their own site as well? OHHH I SEEE. You aren't using the Patrol Method and so your choice of not using the scouting methods has creatd a problem which you now want to resolve by "telling" the scouts what to do. Your problem is not the chain of command, its the lack of understanding of the Boy Scout Methods and their application. As far as cleaning the fire ring whose fire ring is it, the rattle snake's of the squirrel's? Oh thats right no patrol method. So it was the "troops" fire ring. You mean that the troop leader who decided to do a troop fire did not have a duty roster and a plan already arranged with individuals or a patrol who agreed ahead of time to clean the ring? Where is the leadership in this troop? The problems you suggest are not caused by the BSA leadership model, they are caused by lack of knowledge and lack of use of the BSA leadership model. Michael 1. There is no chain of command in Boy Scouts troop operation. 2. There is only one troop elected position SPL, and one elected patrol position PL. All other positions are selected by the SPL or PL. You do not "run " for JASM. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Wilton God so loved the earth that he sent as saviour his only Son....and not a sub committee. Can you image a uniform subcommittee of 1.2 million people? It simply is not practical. Too many cooks spoil the broth immediately comes to mind. As I said even if 9 out of 10 people who where this uniform like it that will still leaves thousands whining about it. NO ONE can design a uniform that will please everyone. It is so funny that people talk about how great the pre-1981 uniform was but they forget that it was not the perfect uniform. Its not that there was no one who disliked it ...there just was no Internet at the time, so the disgruntled across the country could not rally in print to complain about it to each other. There is probably the same percentage of people who dislike the current uniform as the one before it, it's just that technology now allowed them a larger audience. As proof we already have people complaining about a uniform they have only seen a few pictures of. In fact these same people were complaining about the uniform before it was ever even seen. That alone shows you that it is not the uniform it is simply the nature of some people to complain.

Why have a guest speaker unless they have a meaningful message to share.

Ed did you NEVER have instruction in the work you do outside of the job site....ever? Beavah, You don't expect a baby to walk the day it is born do you? How about the second day? The third? Hopefully you understand the developmenyt of a child and you you understand the stage the child goes through before you can expect it to walk on its own. Teams are like that, they rarely are able to function well right from the moment that are put together. As a leader it is helpful to understand why that is and know what you can do as the leader to help them learn to walk as a team. This is not classromm gobbilty gook, this is useful stuff and you see it happening all the time you just don't understand what is, what it means in the development of the team, and how as a leader you can affect it. As a scout leader you have this patrol that has been together for two years and is functioning great. Good cooperation among the members balanced skill level, good morale. Then you add a brand new scout to the patrol. You notice a significant drop in the patrols ability to get things done, there are complaints about the scout, the scout is unhappy, scouts in the patrol who normally get along and having disagreements. Some leaders might think initially that the problem is the new scout. Actually there is no "problem" per se. What is happening is team dynamics. The membership of the team has been altered and it is natural for the team to react to that. They are going through a forming and then a storming stage where they are adjusting to this new element. It often leads to disagreements while each person learns to adjust to this new member and the member to his role in the group. There are things you can do as leader to help the team get through this stage easier and get back to being a performing team. But you cannot help if you do not understand what is happening. This is why troops who routinely inject New Scouts into Experienced Patrols commonly complain about not being able to get the patrol method to work well. It's not that the patrol method doesn't work, it is that the leaders do not realize that every time the patrol make-up is altered it will diminish the ability of patrol for a period of time. Then just as the patrol begins to get to the perfoming stage again the troop injects another New Scout and again the teamwork of the patrol is altered and must go through the normal phases of team development again. The real issue of patrol leadersip is not "What to do with Joe who keeps Fudging ion the meal cleanup". Leadership realizes what causes these kinds of issues and takes steps before the situation arises to avoid them. What YOU evidently want is to teach scouts how to react to situations when leadership did not take place. You want the Patrol Leader to know how to MAKE JOE BEHAVE. The BSA is teaching the youth and adult leadership how to get the job done in a way that gets Joe to cooperate fron the beginning and not even have the problem you suggest. Some of this instruction is done in group instruction, but very little of it. Most is done through the coaching and mentoring by trained adult leaders. To fucus on just the group instruction portion is very short sighted.

oops yes, the Jasm

So it would seem that you agree the difference is in the people.

You erroneously assume that that there is no volunteer involvement in the process and that only professional staff is involved. Next you assume incorrectly that no field tests were done simply because you were not informed of the results. Most program related changes in the BSA are the results of work done by Volunteer committees. the Deatails of which are implented by the national staff. The BSA had a committee that has spent years working on the new design. At philmont in 2003 we were told of some of the testing going on with the zip off pants and trying materials such as Supplex nylon. The BSA also looked at feedback and comments from volunteers across the country regarding changes they would like in the uniform. As for the size of the neckerchief, the neckerchief has not been a functional size for anything other than a decoration for over 40 years, now is an unusual tinme to bring it up. Understand that one could possible design a uniform that would please the over 1.2 million people that wear the Boy Scout Uniform. Even if they managed to please 90% of us that would still leave 120 thousand people whining about it. I would hope that volunteers understood that we wear the uniform, not because it some brilliant piece of fashion, but because it represents that we are joint members of a specific organization whose values we accept and emulate.

again Michael, The requirement for Junior assistant Scoutmaster is t be at least 16 years old and to be selected for the position by the Senior Patrol Leader (with the advice and consent of the Scoutmaster). Since you are not eligible for that position because you do not meet the age requiremennt teh perhaps you should consider the Troop Guide position. It is unfortunate that your Scoutmaster is making that decision rather than the SPL. You role as Troop Guide is to work with the First Year scouts, helping them to learn the basic skills of Tenderfoot to First Class and teaching them some basic leadership skills and troop operations so that at the end of the first year they will be prepared to either become an experienced patrol under their own leadership or to be absorbed in to existing experienced patrols. It is a very important role in a growing troop and one worthy of your consideration.

The best way for the OA to promote itself within the troop (remember the OA is not a troop function or troop activity)is for the OA members in the troop to exhibit good skills and charatcer as they serve in their troop roles. It is not the troop's job to make the OA more visible it is the OA's job to make the OA more visible in the scouting community.

jblake most of your examples are not related to leadership skills of patrol leaders but simply bad scoutmastership in the troop. Nowhere does the BSA teach or even suggest that the behavior you are sighting is considered to be leadership. While in makes for a wordy rant it is so disjointed in premise that a logical conclusion is not possible. Kudu your example of Little League relies soley on accepting your abilities as a fortune teller, and I do not believe that is a credible skill to base you conclusion on. You have no way of accurately forcasting what little league might have become 40 years after your premise. Your conclusion asks that we accept without a shred of evidence what you beieve could have happened but didn't. Again, a fine wordy rant but with no actual credible substance. Rather than deal with what used to be according to what you have pieced together from the past, or from you think might happen in the future, let's look at what actually exists today. And what actually exists are a plethara of available resources, on line, electronic, human, and print, from which adult leaders can learn the program methods of the BSA. The fact that the BSA has leaders that understand the Patrol Method and Leadership Development Methods along with the other Methods of Boy Scouting proves that. There there are lots of young people each year who improve in leadership skills each year through their involvement in scouting. Lots of troops use the patrol method. Some better than others, some more than others, some longer than others, but that has always been the case. Keep in mind that LOTS of scouters do not post on Internet forums, this or any other ones. That doesn;t mean that they know or use the methods of scouting less than some of those that do post. Would the BSA membership and Boy Scout Program benefit from more units Using the Patrol Method? Absolutely! But if there is ample information out there for some to learn it then there is ample out there for all to learn it. It is much easier to show evidence of quality resources than to show evidence of quality leader selection by units. You must admit that Units with good leaders are far more likely to employ the Patrol Method than units with poor leaders. The training resources are numerous. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Ease of production is not the issue, higher costs due to lower production quantities, higher cost do to lower demand, higher cost do to inventory control. You would not be doing the pocket book of the volunteers any favor by going from a few hundred council strips to thousands of different community strips.

Your mistake Michael was in thinking that anything posted on Scouter.com or any unofficial website is accurate simply because it is on the internet. Posts on scouter.com do not determine what the Scouting program or its elements are. It is an open forum where anyone can post anything regardless of its accuracy. You need to develop a better personal filter. One thing that will aid you is that the BSA makes several resources available to you so that you can know and learn the actual elements of the BSA programs. Your scoutmaster was right, and who ever said that the the Scoutmaster chooses the JASM was incorrect according to the official program of the BSA. If you look in your own Boy Scout Handbook it will tell you that the JASM is 16 or 17 years old. If you look in the Senior Patrol Leader Handbook or the Scoutmaster Handbook you will find that the SPL must be at least 16 years old and is appointed by the Senior Patrol Leader (with the advice and consent of the Scoutmaster). You will get far more accurate information from the readily available resources of the BSA, including your own Handbook, then you will find from ANY Internet forum.