Bob White

Ed...the BSA program and its training and resources ALL teach and support servant leadership. While you are correct that the scout must lead and the scoutmaster must approve, it would be nice if the scoutmaster was teaching the Boy Scouting Method of Youth Development in the way the Boy Scout training and resources do, and that the scout be evaluated evaluated on the use of the Boy Scout Method of Leadership Styles, after all it is the "Boy Scout Program" right? It is not an unreasonable expectation.

gwd-scouter, could you explain something to me? You wrote "He told them if he was elected he wouldn't make them do anything and we would make all the older Scouts do everything." What exactly do the scouts in that troop think the role of an SPL is, and where did that get that idea from? How does an SPL "make" anyone do somthing? and What sort of things in that troop does he make them do?

I think what we have here is a failure to communicate. "I dont think a first year experience as a patrol leader in a patrol of same age scouts encourages positive growth in a boy." Then help me out. Does that mean you think a first year scout as a patrol leader in a mixed aged patrol is better experience? I am glad you agree that the scout should learn from a more mature Scout. The BSA agrees and so when we follow the BSA program we team the Patrol Leader of the New Scout Patrol with a Troop Guide who helps the new scout learn what a ptrol leader does and how a patrol works and how the PLC operates. Think of it as the new scout getting to lead using leadership training wheels rather that having to stand around and watch somebody else ride the bike on their own. Certainly you must agree that learning by doing is more effective than by just watching, and that being introduced to a new skill with an experienced person working with you is less stressful than being thrown into it on your own after watching from a distance? You give me too much credit for these being "my methods". Using the Troop Guide in this manner is not my method it's the BSA's. So how is the BSA's way of scouts learning from by doing with an older youth leader not a good program element? And how is it related to lecturing the scout? "Any responsibility is stressful" I disagree, it is only stressfull if you are not prepared for it. What exactly do you think a scout sees as fun about stress? I'm not being defensive but I am tired of being misrepresented. I am more than happy to explain how and why we I have done things in relationship to the scouting program. But you should be courteous enough to ask what it is I do, and ask what I think, rather than consistently "tell" me. Because you constantly misprepresent me, and that is a very unfair way to discuss a topic? "As far as the topic of THIS thread goes. Do you agree that according to the BSA program...The PLC determines the qualifications for being an SPL and that the youth elect him, and the SPL slects all other youth ledership posions at the troop level. And that the Patrol determoines the PL requirements and elects the patrol leader, then the patrol leader selects all other patrol positions. And if you do agree then would you recommend to gwd-scouter to use that method?

Not to burst the bubble, but since this was a parent of a NEW scout... isn't it possible that she did not know if adults went camping with the scouts or not? I mean if I had not been in scouting and had my 10 year old son say he was going camping with some scouts I would have asked the same question, and it would have nothing to do with the patrol method, or the youth leadership etc.

Is a scout unit the place for any age drug addicted person to be? NO! NO! NO! That youth or adult addict needs help. They need real, serious, professional help. I am not saying not to get them help or not to be concerned for them, and please get them as much help, and be as deeply concerned as you choose to be. But they need mental and phycical medical care that the BSA program and its volunteer leaders are not trained to give in a scouting setting. Nor should a leader, regardless of how caring they may be, use that emotion to expose other peoples children to real personal danger in order to satisfy their personal feelings of caring for the addicted individual. ONLY after the youth or adult is clean and sober should they be considered for membership. Eamonn, you have seen the results of drug addiction, and I would not be surprised to find you have been trained in the effects of addition on the addict. What is the #1 most important thing in an addicts life? His safety or well being? If that were true they wouldn't be addicted. Other peoples well being? If that were true there would not be such a high crime rate related to addiction. Would learning and practicing scouting values be high on an addicts things to do list? of Course not. They have one and only one thing that is important to them and that is feeding the addiction. There is NO PLACE around other peoples' children for an addict to be, while still under the control of the active addiction. There is no logical comparison between a person who chews gum in class with a person addicted drugs,

"Seeing-eye dogs are trained servant leaders." That is the only thing you have said about servant leadership that I do not disagree with. What you seem to fail to appreciate though is that the dog did not naturally come by this skill. He or she was taught to do it. And animals that have not been taught will not know how to do it as well if at all. In addition not all service animals are able to do it as weel. Not that they do it badly, but they are not all as good at it as others. And not everyone has the skills to do the teaching. Youth and adults are no different when it comes to those facts. "But can a leader be taught caring? That's a whole different dynamic not being addressed." Absolutely they can be taught. Caring people can be taught how to use that to lead others. And people who do not lead well can be taught how adopting a servant leader attitude can improve their leadeship abilities. It is absolutely a teachable skill set approach to leadership. "So we have Life Scouts working on their Eagles that the only time they show up at meetings is when they need their fellow scouts to help on their project, or when they need something signed off, or when they need, they need, they need... These are not servant leaders WHAT??? Of course it's not but then these aren't leadership situations youare describing. When a scout is in the testing phase on an advancement requirement,. let's say he has to using lashing to build a usable camp gadget" is he using serbvant leadership? No because he is not leading someone else, he is doing something unrelated to a leadership role. Id he building the gadet to help another scout advance. He better not be. How do you use a servant leadershp approach when you are not in a leadership situation. Sorry but I do not see a relationship between your example and BSA's use of servant leadership. If a scout has not learned how to actively serve in a leadershipo position after 7 years, then WHY was he advanced? That is not a fault of the BSA programs or of the servant leadership model. That is just a leader not understanding the program. "One can go through the process of teaching these boys leadership and for the most part it may help groups in some cases, but it also feeds their selfishness and in some cases emboldens them to dominance over others to accomplish this." If that is the result you are getting then you are doing it wrong. "Explain to me how such teamwork can be accomplished in a situation where the Eagle candidate falls into this type of situation. Waiting until the patient is in his deathroe is no time to finnaly ask for a doctor. No one can help with a situation that wqas created over 7 years and now the scout is aging out. That leader has waited to long to ask for help. But the BSA can help them with the next 7 years. If this is result that a leader is getting they need to realize they need to change, because if they keep doing what they have done they will keep getting what they have got. If the leader thinks they have followed the program they need to understyand that they haven't, and the only thing that will get them the results that you can get through a scouting programn is to start actually using the scouting program.

jblake I think eagledad and I were refering to having a perfoming level patrols, not just the stucture in place. And I agree it can happen faster than 18 months, I just don't think it takes any longer than that. In many of the cases I was referring to what took the most time was retraining the adult leaders, the kids fall into the ptrol method almost immediately because it addresses characteristics that are natural to the charatcter of kids. But the Patrol method ids not a natural way for adults to think or relate to young people and it takes loger for them to adapt. Why by Eagleda's experience it takes so much longer than ours I do not know.

I think you have formed a very erroneous view of things. I have never ever written anything that supported teaching skills by lecturing...EVER. Yes, it is true we have different approaches, and evidently a far different rate of effectiveness in our aproaches. On average mosts boy stay in the program less than 5 years. If it takes 5 years to get to the a solid patrol program working then your scouts are NEVER going to see it happen. For one thing I do not see where the BSA program supports "waiting for the scout to be ready to lead". They have 7.5 years to learn and practice leadership skills and the sooner they start the more they will learn. We start teaching leadership skills when they come to their first meeting. They don't realize that is what is happening, but that doesn't stop them from starting the trek. Rather than try to make scouts "stressed" we make them curious. Both gets them to a point where they WANT to learn the skill, I just prefer to engage their natural curiosity rather than test their stress level. In relation to the topic of the thread, I always understood that the PLC could set the age and skill requirements (or not) for the SPL, and the Patrol could set the age and skill requirements for Patrol leader. After that the program and all of its training and resources say that the PL selects all other patrol positions, and the SPL selects all the other youth troop positions. So that is what I always followed, and that is what I have always taught. The only exception the BSA makes is for JASM, and that required my approval as the SM. I do not recall ever having to say no to an SPL's choice. So you tell me EagleDad...What part of any of that is contrary to the BSA program?

I think all you can require if you choose to do so is that a scout have a correct uniform. But since iot is not YOUR uniform you don/t get to decide what correct is. The uniform belongs to the BSa and they say that any official uniform remains offical and that official parts can be mixed. As with the last uniform change, with time the majority of members will vabe a complete current uniform (accept for the units that do not know what a correct uniform is), and there will be a few who will continue to wear older uniforms tioll they die of fade away. So I do not think you should try and demand that people buy new uniforms. Be patient and as the current uniform wears out,becomes difficult to find, or new scouts join, you will see the situation resolve itself.

Most coins have a flip side and this one is no different. While at first glance this might seem a luxury for many adults this is a feature that makes it possible for them to go to camp, which means it makes it possible for more scouts to go camp. As an example I will be volunteering 10 days away from home to go train scoutleaders this summer. Service that I would have had to turn down if it were not for the fact that the camp has recently added WiFi access so tat I can keep in touch with my business responsibilities while I was at camp. By making it possible for adults to have vital communication resources available it makes goping to camp for the scouts easir to say yes to. You can have all the scouts you need wanting to go to camp, but if you don't have features and services that get the adults to conme to your camp then the scouts will not get there. Why do you think that Disney has stuff for adults to do and not just for the kids? Because they understand that it is the adults who bring the kids and so you need to market to both groups in order to maximize attendance. I enjoy roughing it to but life just does not allow me the kind of tine to be out of touch with others as it used to. I sometmes have to take work with me and when to opportunity is right I get my work done. IOf I could not do that then I would not be able to give as much time to the program as I do, I am sure there are a lot of other adults in the same situation. You can have these features for the adults without adversely effecting the program for the scouts.

Marktrail Since your Den is doing great I will guess that you are asking this question as the Assistant Cub Master. So the first thing I need to know is why are you doing two job, and if you had to pick one which are you going to do, the den role or the assistant Cubmaster role? Because if you are going to do the ADL job then the problem you are sharing isn't your problem, and I would recommend that you let those who are responsible make worry about it. If you are going to do the ACM job instead then I would offer that you need to wait for the Cubmaster and Committee Chair to decide what they are going to do, and then see what parts of their plan you can help with. as teh ACM developing the so;ution to this problem is not your job and you need to take the load off your own shoulder and give to those whio are actually responsible for finding the solution. This is a great example why the BSA says "one person-one position" As a den leader you should have your full attention on the Den you serve.

"However, it does reference one important issue that may make a difference. This author states that servant leadership won't work when tasks need to be done. The author is incorrect. He treats Servant Leadership as a method equlivalent to directing, coaching, persuading and delegating, When if fact Servant Leadership is a phiosophy (appraoach) within which the styles of leadership (directing, coaching, persuading and delegating) are used. Your anonymous author has a flawed understanding of what servant leadership refers to. A Scoutmaster who tells a Scout to go get him some water because he is thirsty is using the directive style within a master/servant leadership model. he is telling the follower what to do in order for the follower to benefit the master and his needs. A Scoutmaster who is observing the same scout and is more focused on the welfare of the scout rather than his own needs sees the scout is showing signs of dehydration. the scoutmaster gets some water and tells the scout to come sit down and drink some water, is also using the directive style of leadership but within the philosophy of servant leadership. He understand s that the welfare of the scout is directly related to the scouts ability to get the job done. He sees leadership as a balance between "getting the job done" and "keeping the group together". In Scouting a servant leader uses leadership skills to help his followers learn and grow and succeed, rather than for his or her own comfort or recognition. The use of such incorrect sources could explain your confusion or the confusion others have on this topic.

I doubt that you have enough data from the relatively few posters on this forum to determine that the problem exists to this large of degree throughout the program. I do agree that it seems to be a real problem with many posters on this forum. But isn't that a main reason that the forums exist, for people with problems to seek solutions. If so then naturally there is going to be a large percemtage of posts that reflect units that are not following the program or having trouble following it. I do agree though that while I have helped others deal with these issues they are not problems that have been an issue in any of the troop I have served in. I believe this is the case mainly because we knew these could be hurdles to a good program and we did the worj=k needed to avoid them from developing. In a few cases, what some see as problems are things we just accept as normal human behavior and so we don't get quite so worked up over it and others seem to. Instead do the training or counseling need to improve the situation and moving forward.

"Every strong boy run troop goes through these same phase. That is why most experienced leaders who have mature boy run programs will tell you it takes about five years to get to a place where the boys truly take over." My experiences do not support that view. I have seen and experienced a number of troop programs that went from adult run or chaos where no one lead, into a boy run troop and using the Patrol Method in about 18 months. Its not that hard to get the scouts to take leadership it's just a meater of not making ANY decision for them and asking them what they plann to do next rather than telling them what to do next. As for jblakes comments of "the scouts are just learning what it takes to folow the Scoutmasters directives." I don't see it that way at all. It would seem to me that the BSA helps the Scoutmaster form a vision of delivering scouting to youth. The Scoutmaster through coaching ang mentoring helps the Junior leaders to see leadershiop methods of the BSA, and the Leadership helps the scouts to see the benefits and use of the BSA program to have fun and learn at the same time. So the scouts aren't really doing what the Scoutmaster is directing them to do, they are sharing in the vision of scouting from the boys on down to the national Council.

"It doesn't say anything about a leader having to follow the whims and dictates of the followers." Where exactly did you get that idea from>? No one has posted any such thing. So far every time you post on this topic you change the premise. The only person who has said that servant leadership is about following the dictates of the followers is you. And that is totally erroneous to what servant leadership is.

Actually Stosh if the scoutmaster is delivering the program correctly it is the BSA's Patrol Method, it is the boys' Patrol, and it is the charter organizations troop. What you describe in your your last post may exist in soe troops, in fact I am sure it does. What you do not acknowledge is that it is not what the BSA teaches or supports that causes or promotes that attitude or environment, What you describe has nothing to do with the BSA program but is in fact caused tby the absence of the use of the BSA program Methods by the adult leaders. A team does not require someone to bark out commands to get the job done and nothing in the BBSa suggests tat it does. Nor does the BSA program teach adults or youth to lead that way.

Because they might not know of the activity. Would you rather they learn about it after their son is dead or injured, or before. Again, we help educate scouts and parents about responsible behavior and dangerous behavior in other areas, why not this one. Ignoring it, or ignoring the seriousness of it is hardly seems the responsible thing to do. But it is choice of each unit as to whether they want to address it or how to address it. There certainly is nothing in the BSA program that requires that a unit take action or not, since it happened outside the sphere of scouting.(This message has been edited by BoB White)

I tnink what we lack today is the sense of a community moral compass. The have always been individuals in nearly ant society who did not care for their felow man and even went out of their way to harm them, just as we have today. The difference is that as the population has grown so has the number of people who ignore the value that many know communities emberace, the Golden Rule. As a result, our sommunities are less not because there still are not individuals who have a definable moral component, but because it has been allowed for people without it to dictate changes in ordr to comfort them for their lack of a moral structure. In trying to be all things to all people we have lessened our national character.

Here I sit in my garage on a rainy day, waiting for buyers to search through our treasures at a garage sale. While I am out here with my laptop I can do some business, send some e-mails, post on a few forums, prepare for an upcoming leadership training course in July, study some readings for my lector duties next week, and all from the comfort of a camp chair in a garage in the rain while I wait for the sun and the customers to come out. Even Baden-Powell couldn't do that with a new set of semaphore flags. Not everything new is bad.

I agree with TAHAWK's comments regarding the First Amendmendment and the fredomof/from Association. I think it is important to note that you have a second false premise to your argument. David, what you state as being the Mission of the BSA is incorrect. The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is "to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law". That is considerably different from you thought it was. Our Mission is not about what youth do after Scoutings, it is about what we do while they are in Scouting. We prepare them, we instill scout values. That is our mission. We hope that through these actions that more young people will be able to make ethical choices. With both of your premises false it would be impossible for them to lead to a correct conclusion.

Neckerchiefs are, for most Boy Scout aged persons, too small for slings, too costly for hankerciefs (I haven't seen anyone under 60 carry a hankerchief in many years now that tissues are common), Signal to who? Who really thinks that if they went to a hilltop and sent semaphore that by some miracle of fate there would be someone else on another mountain top in the distance at that exact moment who just happened to be looking your direction, and just happenes to know semaphore? Even if there were he would probably just get on his cell phone like you should have done to begin with and call for help. Baden-Powell I am sure never expected for the skills of scouting to stay anchored in the knowledge of the early 20th century and never change. He seems to have been a lot more progressive thinking than that. I was a scout in the 60s and the only people I ever saw whittle neckerchief slides were senior citizen leaders, spats and tourniquets are part of our past too but we don't have a need for them anymore either. Scouting heritage is its values, the uniform changes about every twenty to thirty years. If you really like neckerchielfs then wear them . That's what "optional" means. But lets be honest they are little more than decoration, only because there are better things available today to do the things they were used for 100 years ago. When they switched to red shoulder tabs some people complained, when they switched to green tabs now some complained (some are the same ones who complained about the red). It is a no win situation for the designers. You cannot create a uniform that will please everyone, it is just too large of a group. Besides, that is not the purpose of a uniform anyway.(This message has been edited by BoB White)

As for the changes to the current uniform those questions would habv to be asked of the folks who served on the committee. As for the change in the neckerchief being optional, that happened decades ago. How you would discover the exact reason for that I would have no idea. I will offer this however, it seems most scouts and adults given the choice no longer choose neckerchiefs. They serve little functional purpose and those they did serve have largely been replaced by modern products that do the job better. As an example when neckerchiefs where first used a primary purpose was as a bandage. Given the choice between a dirty neckerchief and today's prepackaged sterile compress, which you choose? Would you use a neckerchief to bandage a sprained ankle or an ACE Bandgage? Another use was a a signal flag. To signal who nowdays? If you needed help are you going to move to high ground and send semaphore or make a cellphone call? Neckerchiefs have lost their original function simply due to the passage of time and technology. Just as compasses in the near future will be replaced by GPS units and the Yellow Pages by the Internet.

The point Ed is that huge committees as suggested by some posters are not always a good thing. More important than numbers are the abilities of those involved. As for GW's comment on everything that comes from the Vatican as being infallible. I do not know GW's religious training. but there is nothing in the teachings or belief of the Catholic Church that says everythng from the Vatican is infallible. Perhaps his Jesuit friend will be able to straighten him out on that. Ask him about ex cathedra. OGE I am sorry that you do not care for the term whining. But when adults complain about the performance of a uniform they have never worn, or even seen worn first hand, then they are either precognitive or whining. It is the complaining behavior without a shread of evidence that is counterproductive to the topic, and not the identification of the behavior itself. Since you do not fault them for their opinion I will trust that you will not fault me for mine.(This message has been edited by BoB White)

No one said they should talk about the incident. We said they should discuss the danger of an activity being practiced by youth of this age. We do that all the time in scouting.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

You avoid the point of the discussion ed in that the method of leadership he used was one of servant leadership he coached and mentored those who followed him for the purpose of their benefit and not his own. While I do not disagree with the theology of your post it has nothing to do with the topic of the thread.(This message has been edited by Bob White)