Bob White

Without a social security number you will not be able to register with the BSA. While I am sure the BSA understands your concerns they have the welfare of millions of other peoples' children to consider. I am told there will be no exceptions. This rule has been in effect for several years, and at first they allowed some veteram scouters to remain registered without the additional information. That is no longer the case and any scouter whose Soc.Sec. is not on the BSA data base must supply it or their membership will end. All new applications must carry this information or the membership will not be accepted. It is a personal choice and each person must do what they believe is best for themselves.

Okay Sven, I am gonna presume based on your last post that you did not read the resources you asked for a week ago. There is only 1 way to get on the executive board and that is to be elected by the council body. That's it, the one and only way. Your a young man still learning about life as an adult, can I offer a small buit of advice. Wanting does not always mean getting it now. A week ago you knew pretty much nothing about the structure of the council or the duties of the various levels of the council body. And in the last week without reading the information of attending any council meetings you now think that you know more about what makes for a good council committee than scout executive. Does that sound like a reasonable attitude to you? If you really were interested in serving on the committee you would have learned more about it and been able to bring more to the table than just the attitude that they need you there. Your experience is much better suited to unit service than to the executive board of a council. But again you are still very young, you still have about 3/4 of your life ahead of you, and who knows what skills and resources you will develop in the years to come. PATIENCE! (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I am sorry to hear of your sons disappointment. I do not think you are a crabby parent just someone who wants the most for his son. I do however think it is a misplacenment of anger to blame an entire program for the inaction of some local volunteers in your community. There are over a million other scouting volunteers who never had the opportunity to know or help your son, and to assume that they they have never helped anyone like your son in their own communitiy is extremely unfair and untrue. I hope your sone learned some positive skills and values that will benefit him him entire life, and I hope that for your own well being you are able to eventuially put your disappointment into perspective when it comes to the rest of the the scouting program.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

The SM has NO authority over the CC. The SM has no say in the approval or removal of the Committee chair. You can only be removed by the person or persons who approved your membership.

Yes, the girl would have to be registered in Girl Scouts, But since we are a coed unit, and we provide a special ceremony for our male sailors who earn Eagle (all have done so registered soley as Sea Scouts), the Quarterdeck has decided that we will hold an identical ceremony for our female sailors that earn the Girl Scout equivalent of the Gold Award.

Again with makin up the contents of other people's posts. You make it very difficult to have a clear conversation when you post things implying that others said things they never did. I never said she was doin it all wrong, I said the BSA program had a way to do it differently that would use more elements of the Patrol Method. And I offered her specifc steps to get there. It was not my solution it is the BSA's solution and it works really well for units that use it. She has your solution and she has mine and she is free to choose or changeher mind later. That does not give you the right to continuley misrepresent what I or others have posted. She was using the methods you told her to continue using when she had the problem, so there is no logical way that continuing to use those methods will resolve it or keep it from happening again. Since she will have to do something different to get a different result, then why not help here use more elements of the Patrol Method and Leadership Development Method since that is where the problem is? Certainly to be effective in the role of the commissioner you have to know the program and its resources pretty well if you are going to be able to share them with others. Of course if you are just going to say 'keep doin what you are doin', then you wouldn't have to worry about knowing any of it. (This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Acco You had 1 correct answer, don't feel bad Beavah had 1.5 There is no place on an adult membership application for the Scoutmaster to sign. However every adult application must be approved by the Committee Chair. Does the SM have the authority to approve or remove any adult leader? NO Who is responsibily for ensuring leadership is secured and trained? The Troop Committee (see the first bullet in the Troop Committee Guide under Troop Committee Organization and Responsibilities. There ar only two registered but non-payiong positions on scouting. The Tiger Cub Partner a merit badge counselor. Can the Committee Chair remove the Scoutmaster...Yes, with the knowledge of the Charter organization representative or the Charter Instituitional Head. Does the Scoutmaster have any authority over the CC? NO. Who owns the unit and who is appoved by the Charter organization head to oversee the operation of the unit? The CO owns it then sselects the CR and CC to operate it. They selct and approve all other adult positions to assist in the operation. The committee works for the committee chair. The program ia specifically structured that the chair gives assignements to the committee members and they report their progrees at the monthly committee meetings. The "committee" has no group authority to do anything they support the needs of the unit at the direction of the chairman. IF you follow the prescribed program. as I said the SM does not answer to the CC as in a military sense and theprogram supports a partnership relationship beteen the various adult roles, however when puch comes to shove (as it sometimes does) the CC and the CR each has authority over the Scoutmaster that the scoutmaster does not have over either of them. While some may not like that fact, it is a fact none the less. As for your new dynamic...there are NO registered but unpaid memberships in a troop. So I do not see how that becomes a factor in your question regarding the scoutmaster answering to the CC. You were perhaps refering to the new ScoutParent initiative. Scoutparent is not a registered membership position. It does not require an adult application. The parent merely checks a box on the YOUTH application stating that they are willing to help.

What I made quite clear was that you fabricated every point you brought up, and purposely misrepresented everything that was actually posted that did not support your personal opinion. It was a dishonest way for you to discuss the topic. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

yeh, here be da problem Beavah. If everything was good with gwd she wouldn't be askin for help now eh? She had a mixed patrol and she had a good junior leader settin da example...(just like you said she should) and she did not get the result she was expecting so she asked for help. "keep doin what your'e doin" is not advice that will bring about any change will it now? Organizin' da troop into more than one patrol, Havin a workin SPL and PLC Usin' the PLC to make decisions like on requirements for the SPL Coach'n and Mentor'n da junior leaders to be able to do these things Startin the learning and practicin sooner.. These are all actual elements of the BSA program and you didn't suggest or support any of them. And all of them would provide the unit with a more youth lead program. "keep doin what your doin" does not solve existin problems don'tcha know." (brief pause while I adjust my accent) To get changes you have to make changes. Using more of the elements of the patrol method seems to work for a lot of troops isn't there a good chance that they would work for her? Good Commissioners know and support the methods of the BSA Scouting program. They know and share the best practices, Methods, and policies of the BSA, and they give actual measuarable steps that a person can follow to solve a problem. Sorry Beavah, but hen it comes to problem solving "keep doin what you're doin" is not anything like actual commissioning.

Acco40 Who signs the adult leader membership applications? the Scoutmaster or the Committee Chair. Does the scoutmaster have the authority to approve ANY adult membership in the unit? Who is charged with securing and training the scoutmaster? Who owns the unit and who is appoved by the Charter organization head to oversee the operation of the unit? The Scoutmaster may not "answer to" the CC in a military chain of command sense. But the CC has authority over the scoutmaster that the scoutmaster does not have over the CC.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

No one ever said that a week away from work wasn't nice...it's just not always possible. I would rather the scouts get to go to camp and the leader spends some time each day at work without leaving camp, then for the scouts to have to miss camp because the leader cannot be away from work that week. It would seem to be a win/win situation. Leaders who did not like the idea of leaders from other units needing to do some work while at camp could always choose to not be concerned about something that did not effect them or other scouts.

Remember what I said about misrepresenting people's posts so that you can obscure the actual point or support your own opinion based on a false premise. Here is a great example... "The reason is that most parents and kids don't want to voluntarily spend their time bein' lectured to by the Scoutmaster. No post has ever recommended a lecture by the scoutmaster at the coh. "folks should Praise in Public, and Reprimand in Private." No post has suggested a public reprimand. "Rightly or wrongly as parents they figure they're better equipped to take da keys away from Johnny Scout and have an intense "family discussion" or mete out consequences than da guy that only sees the kid once a week for an hour." No post has suggested that anyone in throop should or could take keays away or mete out consequences. " Only thing I reckon that encourages is lower attendance at a Court of Honor, or people comin' late or leavin' early to avoid the dull stuff." No post ever suggested that the presentation should be dull. "It's far easier to organize a lecture to a whole group about rules, eh? Not a single post talked about rules or lecturing on rules. " The SM doesn't need to show either personal courage or personal love and concern to another individual, but can still feel like she's "done something". Taking sopecific action to help keep paremts of scouts informed of dangers That direclty relate to their children is not "feeling" like youare doming something it IS doing something. "A Scout is Brave" There is nothing cowardly about educating scouts and parents. Is having a speaker on fire safety cowardly? Is the DARE program cowardly? Is the gospel reading at your church on Sunday cowardly? All are ways that we educate and care for people. A scout is also Trustworthy but Beavah's post was a litany of misrepresentations designed to bolster his point of view by addressing opposing points of view that he created out of blue, and that do not exist in the thread. No poster in this thread supported any of the points that he made up. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Program-wise it has been a tough Spring. Extended cold temperatures and rain has delayed us from getting boats prepared and in the water. Last year we were sailing by mid-March, this year we are still not in the water yet with the bigger boats. Advancement wise 3 of the sailors have finished their Eagle Rank this year with two more working on their project write ups, and two others finishing their Girl Scout Gold Awards. Then we have a scout and leader going to Sea Base and a Scout and Leader heading to Philmont. Along with some other special activities...if we can get the rain to stop for a few days.

Doesn't the number of adults you need really depend on the program level you are working in rather than percentage to youth? A Tiger Den (100%) Packs not nearly that high (30%) Troops less (you can operate almost any size troop with 7 to 12 adults the percenatge will depend on the number of youth you have) Crews hardly any (5 to 8 registered adults are plenty for almost any size crew) but again the percentage will depend on the size of the youth membership. Point being the number of adults need is really related to the program level more so than percentage to youth. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Surely you understand the program elements of the BSA's Boy Scout Program, The "Troop" is a gathering of Patrols, not "the Scoutmaster". Patrols are boy led, the troop is led by the SPL and the PLC. The primary role of the scoutmaster is to teach and develop the youth leadership. The fundamental concept of the Patrol Method and the Leadership Development Method is that the adult does not do anything that a scout can do himself. Do you feel the scouts are unable to make a decision on the requirements they want for the SPL? This is VERY basic stuff when it comes to the Boy Scout program and the Patrol Method "Yeh either prevent the possibility by creatin' an age-based program where adults and older boys really run things for NSPs and mid-level patrols (preventing the frustration), or yeh build a mixed age program where kids understand da challenges of leadership and mature lads aspire to it. You fail to acknowledge that gwd HAS a mixed age program and still it did not work. And they HAD an older scout to observe in the role and that did not work either. You also did not mention a third choice, follow the Boy Scout program Methods to coach and mentor the scout. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

If that time is under the control of then troop then you had better have the required adult leadership present or you would be liable for the behavior. Do you really intend to follow all the scouts home? If not then your authority ends once the meeting is over and the scouts have left the activity venue. Is their accident insurance still intact until they arrive at their destination? Yes, but the BSA is not the primary policy, and it is unlikely that the it would ever come into application since the victim's family insurance and then the drivers insurance would be primary. As far as what the news stories would say... I could not care less. The concern should be for the welfare of the youth beacuse after becoming aware of the dangerous behavior that took place AFTER the meeting was over and the scouts had left.

Hi gwd scouter My point is that what units with more than one Patrol do as far as setting requirements is not relevant to your situation as you do not have a PLC, or an SPL really. It's not about using the method "ideally". It is about using it effectively. My recommendation would be to look at the program methods and not at the unit size, and see how you can follow the program as effectively as possible. Consider these adjustments. Have the scouts elect an SPL, then have them divide themselves into two patrols and elect patrol leaders. Once they have organized into two patrols the SPL and the patrol leaders can meet as the PLC and start learning how to lead the troop, and if they choose to they can set requirements for the NEXT SPL election. Then with the help of the troop committtee make a strong recruiting effort to bring in at least 3 or 4 more scouts before the winter, and then some new scouts in the February cross over. Within a very short time (less than a year from now) you can have three Patrols in the Troop, with three patrol leaders, a Troop Guide, an SPL, and a 5 person PLC to lead the troop. Or, as EagleDad has suggested you can keep doing what you have been doing. Just remember that if you keep doing as you have always done then you will keep getting what you have always gotten, and your leadership situation will never change.

John Lisabob wrote "While not at a scouting function..." So we all agree then that this was AFTER the meeting and not during the scouting event?

Yes FScouter, but I was courteous, kind, and helpful in my response offering not a personal opinion but a local scouting resource that he could turn to for assistance.

My point on the event happening outside the sphere of scouting is that it is not behaviour that the troop or scouting has authority over, that does not mean that they cannot have influence over it. If you see a scout outside of a scouting event not wearing a seat belt you have no control over that. You have influence in that you can counsel him about it, but you cannot control that action outside of the the program you lead. During a scout activity you have the ability to control that situation and insure that the scout wears a set belt or not travel with the troop. One is outside the sphere of scouting, one is inside the sphere of scouting. Why just let one scout's parents know about the dangers of hood surfing? Would you only discuss the dangers of drugs with scouts you thought used drugs?

Eagle Dad writes >>I'm not being defensive but I am tired of being misrepresented.

You could read the thread again ed to get that information. If you are still unsure there are some books on the topic you might consider reading, or you might ask your local Boy Scout Roundtable commissioner to spend some time on the topic at an upcoming meeting.

gwd, somethngs to consider. Would the size of the troop keep you from being able to use the methods of the Scouting program. By not following the program could you negatively effect the growth of the troop? You are correct that with only one patrol the lead scout s a patrol leadewr and not a senior patrol leader. An SPL leads the Patrol Leders Council and you do not have one. The PLC determines the age abd rank requiremnents for troop offices and you do do have a PLC. With such a small troop, setting restrictions for offices could severely hamstring the unit program. Scouts will possibly be in the same leadership position for YEARS until other scouts become eligible let alone interested in the jobs. It would seem that just because other units set restrictions that does not mean it should be a priority in the troop you serve. Do the other troops have more than one patrol?

Hi Eamonn I am having trouble keeping up with you. Has the BSA not constantly been making efforts to expand the service base of their membership. Lots of BSA resourcxes are now available in Spanish, There is the ScoutReach program, The socccer program, an emphasis on inclusiveness at the highest level of leader training. Are they not continuing to do more each year. I guess I just donh't know exactly what you would want the BSA to do for drug addicts or pushers. I agree these are serious problems, but can the BSA really be expected to be the cure to every social problem? You asked what a scout is, has anyone said it had to be a cute rich white kid?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

The current official uniform is designed as a ceremony uniform and the action uniform for outdoor activities. The committee working on the new uniform, apparently responding to a number of people wanting to return to a single uniform that could serve two diverse applications of both formal and utilitarian, have designed it with materials that can be more durable (cotton canvas) or more light weight and faster drying (supplex nylon).. We will see how that works. Personally I would rather see units get scouts enthusiastic over wearing the uniform rather than "make them" wear it.