Bob White

"I think we have to try to remember that for an average parent, the understandin' of the difference between BSA National, separately incorporated BSA Councils, and wholly independent Charter Organizations and unit-level volunteers isn't well understood." AhoyDave is this the problem? IS beavah correct in saying that you do not know the difference between the BSA and a unit volunteer? I ask because you said thta you were in scouting for many years and you even said you knew what was taught in the training courses? "There's no specific training on autistic/asperger's youth. There's no BSA commissioner trainin' specific to inclusion issues of autistic/asperger's youth. There's no BSA professional expertise or trainin'. Unless da CO or local council sets it up, there's no provision for a standing consulting body of medical & educational professionals to assist unit leaders or districts confronted with inclusion issues. Unless da CO or local council sets it up, there's no clearinghouse for support resources. etc. You are joking right? There is no specifc training on Muscular Dystropy either...or on Tourettes, or on visual or audio impairment, or on Spina Bifida, or on Downs Syndrome, or on any of the HUNDREDS of other possible individual and symptomatically unique problems that a scout aged youth could have. How on earth could anyone logically or thoughtfully expect that the BSA would have a specific training, or a specific program, or specific resources, for EVERYT possible health condition there is. To try and cast blame on the BSA for that is outrageous. You want a call to action...get trained! if you are a unit leader and have a scout with a specific problem, communicate with the parent and learn how you can best serve that scout. Take some responsibility for your job as the "leader", and if you need more resources call upon the parents and the unit committee for help. God gave parents and volunteers hearts and brains, stop blaming the BSA national office if you do not bother to use either of them.

"I think a good SM and program does some version of what NJ, BobWhite, and OGE have all suggested - they set expectations for positions, train kids, and do their bit to mentor." Speaking for myself the suggestions is not mine, it is the right way to do it because that is what the methods of the BSA program are, I merely shared them on the thread. Do them because that is the scouting program, not because which poster, or how many of us, shared it.

Gunny My post was in response to the original question and to the obtuse comments by another poster. BW

Dave doesn't want to point fingers but he does and he points only at the BSA. He wants the BSA to change, HE doesn't weaht to consider changing, he doesn't want leaders to change, or charter organizations to change, HE WANTS the BSA to change. And here is what he bases that on..."In leader training, no time is spent on how to accomodate special needs kids but instead lessons on how to be firm with their parents about how they may be too disruptive and interfere with the troop operation. That is an absolute fairy tale, and anyone who has actually taken Scout leader training knows it. There is nothing in any BSA training that even approaches what Dave accuses the BSA of. Dave I am sure has no knowledge of the scouts used in the photos he has seen and believes them fals only because they do not reflect the scouting he has been a part of in his local community. To assume that none in the hundreds opf thounds of units across the BSA never do a program that is different or better than the one in your local community is incredibly tunnelvisioned. Can some units do more absolutely, are there leaders who are simply not going to have the skills to serve scouts with special needs? of course, heck we have our leaders now who don't have the skills to serve scouts that don't have special needs. Can charter organizations doe more. Absolutely, they can look for and be open for opportiunities to serve special need scouts and make sure that their leaders have the knowledge and resources to serve them. Bit all of that is available right now, and all of those issues have been addressed by the BSA. The BSA has made training and program help available to units and leaders, they promote inclusion f special needs scouts at nearly every level of the program. So since we are not going to point fingers maybe Dave will stop pointing to the BSA and look locally (really local) like at his community, and inwardly, to seek changes that will help scout units serve all scouts better.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Greenleaf wrote a book on servant leadership a mere 2000 years or longer after it was originated. Servant leadership is based on the Golden Rule and on identical philosophies found in numerous cultures, religions and philosophies. How far away from a patrol another patrol camps has nothing to do with how a scout leads or learns to lead, nor is a troop's decision whether or not to do patrol cooking, nor is how far you hike. To suggest they are related is pure silliness. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

ASM #1 should be thanked for his input, but unless he gets trained or retrained and shows he actually understands the Leadership Development Method and the Advancement Program his opinions should not be given credibility. His opinions are not in keeping with the policies or Methods of the BSA Boy Scout Program. Serve actively is explained in the Boy Scout handbook. BE CAREFUL! "Actively serve in a leadership position", and "be active in your patrol or troop" are two different requirememnt. Bear in mind that not all scouts have the same resources of time, and a good adult leader will realize that each scout's level of activity will vary. It would be very difficult to say that a scout who got his job done was not active. (This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Hi NJ I do not know what training the three leaders have completed or how much experience they each have, but they are a little right on the topic and a lot astray. The requirement referred to by the ist ASM in your story does not exist. Nor is there a requirement that a scout make a meaningful contribution. That is far to subjective for a measurement. The troop level junior leader training gives you a very easy tool. During the training course each scout gets a wallet card that has his office's general duties on one side, and on the other the scout can write three goals for his term. These do not have to be "meaningful", but they should be specific, measurable, attainable, relevant to his position and have a specifc time for accomplishment. Where I think the troop leadership is missing the big picture is that purpose of the junior leadership positions is not the goal of scouting it is a Method of scouting. Youth leadership is a tool used in the scouting program to help develop citizenship and mental and emotional fitness, so that we can affect the mission of scouting which is to help young people make ethical choices based on the Oath and Law. Just putting scouts in leadership positions and then waiting to hear from others how they did is not what adult scout leadership is about. If the goal of your leadership team is to follow amd deliver a strong scouting program then I would make the following recommendations. 1. Take or revisit Scoutmaster Leader Specific Trainingg. 2. Use the troop level junior leader training course and the leadership wallet cards that are included. 3. Have the adult leaders take an active role in coaching and mentoring the junior leaders throughout their tenure in office. 4. Regularly review the scout's activity and their progress toward their three goals that they set for their term in office. 5. Be prepared to reinforce good leadership skills as displayed by the scout or to counsel the scout back on track so that they learn and retain the skills of leadership, and can apply them to their next leadership opportunity. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I think I disagree with you on your understanding of Servant Leadersip jblake but I am not sure because I cannot follow the meandering of your pots. here is what I mean. "Sorry, but my definition of servant leadership is not a series of skill sets that can be learned as easily as tying shoes and making beds. What your definition is is irrellevant since the training, resources and program elements of the BSA are not based on your opinions. If we are to have a reasonable discussion we need to be using the BSA's view and not each individual opinion of 1.2 million volunteers. "The parent that constantly has to remind their child to say "thank you" will eventually teach it to parrot back the right answer regardless of whether or not that child ever learns to be appreciative. This is unrelated to the topic since the parent is neither teaching or using servant leadership in this case. "Often times I see the BSA training used in this fashion. "If you do this and that, you will get a measurable result thus." Nowhere does the BSA teach that nor have they at any time in the past 40 years, and doubtfully prior to that. "However, simply instilling "leadership" skills in a non-caring person can in fact create a overbearing bully, who previously didn't have the appropriate skill sets to manipulate and dominate over those around him." An unsupportable and unprovable presumption. The Scout Law is not a learned skill set, the Oath is not a learned skill set,... That is right they are not...they are values and not skills. There is nothing in the BSA that claims them to be skills. One can go through the motions over and over again and eventually teach our boys to say "thank you" on command, but in no way is Scout Spirit a measurable metric that can be held up against a task and ultimately conclude an objective result. Irrelevant, since nothing in that statement is related in any way to the topic of leadership, and nothing in the BSA suggests that the Sout Spirt does that or can do that. "The TG that mother-hens his boys around, getting them to the activities of their first camporee, keeps them on task at summer camp challenges and sits in on their first few BOR's so they don't feel overwhelmed are all leadership skills of servant leadership that can't be put into a curriculum syllabus and handed out at a training event." Those are not leadership elements of servant leadership, those aren't even the responsibilities of a Troop Guide. None of those behaviors are even suggested anywhwere that I am aware of in the BSA. Can you show where any training or resources of the BSa say ANY of those things? "When the new boys begin to care about their patrol and their program as much as their leaders do, then real servant leadership has a chance to take hold......If caring comes first the desire to learn skills to help others will fall into place rather quickly. This is the closest you cam to showing an understanding of a portion of servanyt leadership. You woiuld have been better to just have posted this paragraph alone...minus this next sentence. If one doesn't have caring first, maybe one had better stick with the parrot-method of teaching. Totally unrelated to the topic. Nowhere does the BSA suggest, teach, or support using rote learning for teaching leadership. So much of the post is unrelated to to the topic that it is hard to tell what you understand about servant leadership and how the BSA teaches it and uses it. Based soley on your post it would seem yo have a lot of very strong opinions on a lot of very unrelated things.

I sincerely doubt God is in your corner on this one. "I was an instructor for committee training long ago, long before the new "Committee Challenge." There was no committee specific training in the BSA prior to the introduction of troop committee challenge.

I agree that the problem is at the local level. Dave seems hell bent to blame the national council for reasons that neither he or beavah make very clear. The randon blame on others is emotional not logical. Bith for instance sight scouters like me as the problem, yet neither have had the courtesy or the interest to even ask me if I have had any experience with scouts with special nees or what those experiences were. I posted not my opinions but the contents of the National Autism Society and they are both arguing with "my view" when they should be contacting the NAS if they don't like what the site says. Dave's opinion is limited by his anger, and facts of the BSA's continuing efforts to help support and serve scouts with special needs are ignored. Beavah would jump in on any discussion whether he has an ionterest of knowledge in it just to have the opportunity to argue. Whatever the specific cause of Autism is is irrelevant to the scouts eligibility for optional advancement tracks. If the scout is incapable of completing the standard requirements due to a permanent condition he is eligible to apply for an optional advancement plam. If the scout is able to meet the requirements but needs special assistance or guideance and he is not getting that from his unit or unit leader...CHANGE UNITS! Not all volunteers have the skills to deal with "normal" kids, so do not expect that there will be ample volunteers in any unit to be able to work effectively with a special needs youth. Dave you chose not to be a scout leader for your son...YOU CHOSE...no one kept you out, if you could not seek or obtain cooperation from the local unit leader that is not the BSA's fault. They do not own the unit, the leader works for the charter organization not the BSA. The BSA makes all kinds of information and suport available but it is up to the leaders and parents to make use of it. Not all families of special needs scouts share in your negative experience, and not all leaders are as unskilled in helping and serving special needs youth as the leaders in your community evidently are. I wish things had gone differently for you son. I wish you could see where the problem really occurred.

"is marginally short of thievery of our annual fees I cannot urge you enough that if you feel that your $10 annual fee is is anywhere near theivery PLEASE DO NOT PAY IT!

Knowing that the technolgy exists you should also now that does not mean they have a compatable infracstructure ofr software to do it. And it certainly does not rationalize your rudeness or namecalling whether you put in in print or say it to someones face. I am sure if you had posted that Ed was an "idiot" and a "blundering fool" as you did about the employees of the BSA it is unlikely that he would have given you his instant support the way he did. It was a rude and unwarranted attack. Don't you agree?

Good choice Michael I am sure you will make a fine Troop Guide. Remember you role is to walk wit them or behind them and not in frontg of them. Your goals to be an Eagle Scout is a great one. It is one that you alone can control and take measurable steps towards. But remember that the same is mnot true of becoming OA Reresenative or Junior Assistant Scoutmaster. You have little control over obtaining these two positions, While you are welcome to offer yourself to serve those that select you are not required to choose you. It is best to set goals that you control trather than goals that are controlled by others. Perhaps if you learn that lesson now at your young age you will not have the same frustrations at 20 that another poster has in his eagerness to be on the council executive board. Best of luck in your new position Michael. BW

AhoyDave In another thread you disagreed with me on the eligibility of someone with Autism to use the optional advancement programs available through the BSA because as you wrote..." Autism is not physical nor retardation." As I am not a parent of an autistic child I will not disagree with you. However, I will allow the Autism Society of America to disagree with you. According to them "Autism is a complex developmental disability that typically appears during the first three years of life and is the result of a neurological disorder that affects the normal functioning of the brain, impacting development in the areas of social interaction and communication skills" AND "it is generally accepted that it is caused by abnormalities in brain structure or function. Abnormalities in the brain function or structing Dave, That would seem to fit both the long term disability requirements for the optional advancememnt programs of the BSA. To try and argue that the BSA is unfair to your son because due to his condition he cannot meet the existing requirements BUT then say he cannot use the optional programs because he has no special needs is illogical. To say that the BSA has done nothing to help these scouts is UNTRUE. They have developed optional advancement programs, created training and information regarding scouting for youthe with diabilities, they encourage leaders to welcome disabled youth and adults in to the program. I am sorry your son has this disablitity, and I am sure that he faces challenges every day because of it. While there may be some people and some organizations that fail to recognize his abilities or make him unwelcome because of them, the BSA is not one of those organizations. I believe you are not able to see that due to your general and understadable anger you are exhibiting. It is unfortunate that you did not seek to learn more about the options available to your son earlier in his scouting career, and that the scouters in your local community did not do a better job of realizing your needs and helping your son with the BSA resources that were available. But the errors of the local volunteer scouters was not caused by lack of resources or information available to you or them through the BSA. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

John-in-KC posts "idiots, blundering fools, can't see common sense if given to them on a 24K platter" That is not a rant, that is just bad manners. There is nothing helpful,friendly, courteous, cheerful, and certainly nothing brave about that outburst, since John can be fairly confident that the people he maligned will not answer in their own defense. Had that post been directed at a foum member it would likely have been edited or removed. John might even risk being banned for such an attack. But as long as it is toward a BSA employee I am sure John feels quite safe in his behaviour as insulting BSA employees seems to be considered a right by many volunteers, perhaps even a duty by John and a few others. I wonder who has contacted the national office to seek a solution, or ask if any of John's wish list was in the planning stages, or if they can even be done. I would bet that John certainly did not. That so many on this forum need to revert to name calling in order to present their views on a topic is truly sad, and it is a misrepresentation of the values of the Scouting community as a whole. Because of this I would hope that John would reconsider his outburst and remove his post voluntarily. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

News coverage has a way of reporting more bad news than good because bad news is usually more intruiging to the reader and is usually out oif the ordinary. Good deeds are usually done much quieter and and attract far less attention so even though they happen more you hear about them less. When good news is reported more than bad that is the time to worry, because it means the good is less common than the bad news.

If that is the case then go ahead and register because you will recieve a packet of information from the course director with everything you will need to know prior to attending the course. Including information on the ticket.

Thanks for the links and articles Acid Test but you have probably gone to a lot of work to tell us things we already are aware of. Any registered scouter knows that we needed to supply our Soc. Sec. number and we all knew the potential risks invollved. We all had free will to make our choice...and we chose to register. You have the same choice. No one is forcing you to be a scout leader. But if you chose to be one then you must to meet the same applicant requirements that everyone else has. Each person needs to make their own decision. By the way, statisticall speaking, more identities are stolen each year from people by relatives or "friends" then by any other method. Your greatest risk is not by registering with the BSA.

There is no chain of command in Boy Scouts! As you can see Michael there is great disparity in how even the adults leaders view and understand the scouting program. A lot probably depends on how and when they were trained, as well as by each individuals understanding of the program. Think of scouting in a comparison to the govenermental structure of the US. We elect a State Represetative from our local area to represent us at the state level. He is not our boss, we do not work for him. He respresents or needs and interests to others who then then vote on a decision. All communities are then bound by that decision. Will all communities agree on that same decision? No, but as a society we agree to follow the decision of the representataive government. Sound familiar? In scouts we call it the PLC The representation flows both ways. He represents us to the government and he represents the decisions of the government to us. The same as a Patrol Leader. A patrol leader is someone you elect to represent your patrol's needs and wishes to the Patrol Leaders Council. They make decisions that the entire troop agree to follow, through the representation of your Patrol Leader. Is the Senior Patrol Leader the boss of the PL? No. Nor is the Governor the boss of the state representatives or senators. The role of the SPL is to help coordinate, teach, and develop the patrol leaders for the benefit of the entire troop, just as the role of the Patrol leader is to coordinate, teach and develop the patrol for the good of the whole patrol. The Scoutmaster is not the boss of the SPL. The Scoutmaster is there to help the SPL develop a vision for the succeess of the troop and to teach and develop the leadership skills in the junior leaders through coachoing and mentoring. Depending on the size of the troop these goals can big too big for one person, so the SPL may have assistants who act on his behalf and do the same job but to a select sub group. For instance one Assistant SPL might work in support of the troop officers while the SPL works to support the PLs. The Scoutmaster might have an assistant to work in support with the ASPL that works with troop officers while the SM works with the SPL. There is no real chain of command...there is a system of support. This is how the BSA program has been designed for many years. I remember that as a scout in the 60's this is how I was taught the unit operated. This is how I was trained as a junior leader in my troop. When I became an adult leader in the mid 70's this is how the program was taught. When I became a scout leader trainer in the 80s this is how the program was taught. And it is still taught this way today. At the unit level there are various underlying layers of support leading up to the individual patrol. A leaders role in scouting is not to command a group or individual. His job is to help them learn and succeed. He is not their boss or commander he is a friend, coach, and mentor. The Scouting program is not a unique approach to leadership it is however a unique approach for allowing youth the opportiunity to lead themselves through a representative government. It is a model for good citiizenship, and as a citizen in the US no one is your boss, you live in a partnership with others in your community, some are there to help you and you are there to help others. It is a representative republic, there are checks and balances as in our own governmental system, but there is NO chain of command when you follow the Methods of the BSA program.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"Interesting discussion. I was an instructor for committee training long ago, long before the new "Committee Challenge." How is that posibble? There was no committee specific training in the BSA prior to Troop Committee Challenge. Beavah While your post is loaded with your personal view on things there is nothing in it supported by the the BSA. For instance who the "real force is" in a organization has nothing to do with the BSA charter concept or unit structure. When a lawsuit is filed against a corporation or organization it is filed against one or more or its corporate officers.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

As a scout leader I am sure you understand the advancement policies that the same for every EVERY scout and scouter that the scout must complete the requirement as wriiten. You also must know that if the scout has a permanent physical condition that does not allow him to accomplish a requiirement that you can obtain an exception from the national advancement committee. All it requires is a physicians letter explaining the nature of the condition and the requirements that are effected. NAd that there is also advancement options for scouts with mental challenges. What more would you want the BSA to do? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Svendzoid, You would plan to disrupt and possibly postpone the election process (a meeting of the council body as a whole that only happens once a year), just to try and get yourself on the executive board? And you think this will endear you to the membership how? I really hope you will reconsider not only your actions but your motivation. If you were on the board would you vote for someone who behaved that way?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Acco There is no position in scouting called a CO, just as there are no registered without registration fee positions in a troop. CO (charter organization)is a thing and things do not have authority. The IH, CR, and CC are the people that represent the CO and THEY have authority over the adult membership positions.

The committee should certainly have input, but the fact is they have no authority. That lies with the IH, CR, and CC only. They represent the chartering organization. Their signatures are the only ones recognized by the BSA for adult memberships. That is the real world. The goals is for everyone to play nice together and do their jobs, but when it comes to not doing their job the Scoutmaster has no athority in the matter. And if the CR and CC choose to remove, replace, or reassign, any registered adult in the unit then there is no other registered adult or committee in the BSA that can prohibit them. And THAT is real world as well.

Beavah When asked what specifically she could change you and EagleDad both encourgaed her to just continue as she is doing. Now lets look at this .."You think that restructuring her troop into two age-stratified patrols would be better, and by comparison, my notion is "keep doing what you're doing." Show me where in any post to gwd I said "age stratified patrols". I never did. I never even suggested it. I said let the scouts organize themselves into two patrols. I do think if left to the scouts to select their patrols most would be similar in age and interests. It seems adult leaders when deciding who should be in patrols that tend to mix the ages. When I chose my friends as a boy they tended to be about my age and did things I liked to do. Adults tend to try and make patrols "look even", and that is not what patrols are about.(This message has been edited by Bob White)