Bob White

And always keep in mind that just because some have a different interpretation it doesn't mean that everyone is right. And just because a majority believes in thing doesn't mean the minority is wrong. Sometimes you need to be able to discuss different opinions have the the opportunity to consider the evidence to determine what is right and what is wrong.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

A business decision based on a combination of population density, geographic boundaries, and financial feasability. Or, if it easier to comprehend... it is conspiracy determined in clandestined chambers by unamed cloaked figures who ride in around in top secret black stealth helicopters who base their decisions on the personal information accessed through the misuse of your personal social security number. Whichever you chose to accept.

John Not all topics are going do be of interest to all forum members. There are many, many threads where some people choose not to participate. Why should this thread be any different? People interested in this thread should be allowed to pursue the topic under the same conditions that any other topic should be pursued, with courteousy and thoughtfullness. It seems interesting that some of the same posters who do not want to see their posts inhibited by moderators are prefectly willing to see an entire thread shut down simply because they are not personally interested in the topic themselves. If someone cannot constructively participate in the thread then let their posts be removed, or let them choose to participate in a different thread which does interest them. But why should those who want to discuss this scouting related topic not be allowed to?

Bobwhite, while yours is a good suggestion, bottom line is still the same - the award is based on my judgment, correct? No, not in the least. First, it is not an award is is a designation that can be worn by any youth or adult who meets the requirements. Secondly, it is soley dependent on the individuals ability to meet the requirements, not on the approval of a scoutmaster. If you are not capable of testing him then it would stand to reason that you certainly cannot certify that he can meet the requirements. I think finding someone who is fluent in sign language to do the certifying makes perfect sense don't you?

It is not the BSA's project. It is only the BSA's recognition. The project belongs to an organization that is outside the sphere of scouting. Anyone can lead a service project for anyone they wish without the permission of the BSA. For it to be applied for advancement the BSA requires that the plan go through specific steps within the BSA. But that does not make it the BSA's project, only the BSA's recognition. The BSA cannot tell the candidate that he cannot do the work for the benefit of the organization that the project belongs to. All the BSA can do is tell the candidate whether or not the work can be applied toward his BSA advancement. If you look back at the merit badge example I supplied there is no difference.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"FScouter - I know the requirements (I have a 2008 advancement book). However, I'm not qualified to judge if these requirements are met. So, I'm going to guess by the previous posts that I can use my "scoutmaster" judgment and purchase the strip for a Scout I feel is qualified? " I would think a more appropriate decision to make since you realize that you are not qualified to judge the scout would be for you to find someone is is qualified. Teach them the requirements and how to test them and have them determine of the scout has the need skill level.

Schiff, Certainly you must realize that the candidate can do the project without the approval of the scoutmaster, troop committee, or district. If the candidate is doing a project for another organization no one in the BSA can tell him he cannot do it. All the BSA can tell him is whether or not he can apply it toward his rank advancement. Their approval is not for the project itself but for being able to apply the work toward the BSA advancement. The Scoutmasters approval does not make this a troop activity. The District advancement committees approval doe not make it a BSA activity. The fact that he is a scout does not make it a BSA. The Project belongs to the benefitting organization, It is led by a youth volunteer who happens to be a Boy Scout and is applying the experience toward his rank advancement. When a scout participates in a team sport for a BSA merit badge his participation must be approved by a merit badge counselor in order to apply for the advancement...however that does not make his game a scouting activity, nor does it make it appropriate for him to wear a scout uniform while playing. He is not playing as a scout. He is playing as a member of the team and applying his participation to his Scouting advancement. It is an activity outside the sphere of scouting JUST LIKE an Eagle Candidates Service Project.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Gunny While all of your statements are true none apply to the project being outside the sphere of scouting. There are numerous other statements you could make about Eagle advancement which while true could also be unrealted to what the BSA means by "outside the sphere of Scouting". Please read my example in my previous post. What I did was no different than the candidates role in an service project, but since it was outside the sphere of scouting it was not an appropriate activity for me to be in uniform. Nobody said a 17 year old should not be able to read this. What I posted was the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual is not written to guide youth it is written for adult leaders. Please do not read more into that than exists. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

By the references being incorrect I meant that they do not refer to "Sphere of Scouting" they refer to other aspects of the project. As for being confusing to a 15 or 17 year old, pehaps...but they are not written for the scout. The Advancement policies and procedures are written for the use of the adult leaders to guide and instruct the scout. Where is the difficulty in explaining to the scout that his work as the project leader is done for the benefitting organization and not for the troop or scouting? And that while his work can be applied to the advancement just as other activities he does outside of scouting can be applied to advancement, this is not a project done for or by the BSA and he is there as a volunteer for the beneffitting oprganization. As an example: Last night I lead an activity for a professional organization for which I am a voluteer leader. I planned and carried out the project by leading others (a committee) who put the event together. I used the leadership skills that I learned through scouting to lead the event. It was not however a scout activity simply because I am a scout leader and I used scout skills. I even had other scout leaders at the event and on the committee simply because we are in the same industry and professional organization. But this leadership activity was outside the sphere of scouting. We did not wear scout uniforms, we did not follow BSA policies, the BSA did not provide insurance protection even though we had scout leaders there, even though I was the leader of the event and even though I used scout skills to lead it. It was for a different organization. It was outside the sphere of scouting. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

"He still hasn't really explained how Bob White's post crossed the line I and I have not asked him to do so publicly, and I see no reason why he should, or why others should insist on my behalf. Please do not concern yourself with what a moderator does to my post. When I have a problem with a moderator I PM them and deal with it privately, as the discussion would not benefit anyone else. Are the moderators always right? No, and neither am I (even if I do believe I am right more often ) and so we discuss it off-line. Fscouter and other moderators have always been willing to discuss things privately with me except for one. And FScouter has always been polite in our exchanges. A characteristic I far prefer to the one moderator who has taken to malign me personally both on-line and off, a behavior I find to be anything but moderate. Whether or not I am pleased with my post being removed is my business alone, and I will deal with or not in my own manner. Thank you BW

Dustoff The references given earlier in this thread are incorrect. The actual reference is in the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures Manual under the heading "Eagle Scout Rank" and says; "The Eagle Service Project provides the opportunity for the Eagle Scout candidate to demondtrate the leadership skills he has learned in scouting. He does the project outside the sphere of Scouting." It is important to remember that the scout does not do this project as a troop, patrol, district, council or even a BSA national event. It is an INDIVIDUAL leadership activity for the benefit of another organization or the community with the candidate acting as a volunteer for that benefitting group. It is not a scouting activity. Like many other activities in a scout's life it is done outside the sphere of scouting but his involvement is applied toward a BSA advancement requirement. And while a other scouts might help on the project, that does not make the project itself a unit event. In fact the BSA policies specifically say that it cannot be done as part of a unit activity. The project belongs to the benefitting organization not to any level of scouting. It is done outside the sphere of scouting. Many of the elements of scouting do not apply to the project. For instance 2-deep leadership would not apply to the project since no scout units are required to be there and the policies of the BSA only apply to members of the BSA. The same holds true of other BSA policies and BSA benefits. Since the project belongs to the benefactor it would be the benefactors policies and that apply not the BSA's. I hope that explains things better. BW

It is interesting to not that YMCA nd Boys and Girls Club are chartering organization s for the BSA units, and that the YMCA was instrumental in the development of the BSA program. You also need to remember that betwwen the BSA , 4-H, All the youth sport program, Boys and Girls Clubs, etc, there is a lot of membership overlap. Finding larger youth organizations in the US is not a challenge by any means. Finding another youth organization with a simimilar Mission, Aims and Methods is a far more difficut task. Certainly in some other countries tthe Scouting movement is likely to be the largest organized activity for youth, however few countries have the abundance of program opportunities that youth in the US have. When you consider that after nearly 100 years there are still millions of members, over 120,000 units, and over 800 camps in the BSA it is still pretty amazing.

I have no idea what a camp uniform is or what a camp salute is. I do know that the BSA and only the BSA determines what elements constitute a scout uniform, and whwn it is appropriate to use a scout salute. If a camp sets a clothing standard that does not meet the specifications of the BSA uiniforming regulations then it is not a scout uniform, and using the scout salute when not in a scout uniform would not be appropriate. While your unit may have a "Class B" there is no such uniform in the BSa. There is an activity uniform and it is an officially recognized uniform for a scout to wear. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Why not just make an inexpensive rubber stamp of your signature?

So Nessmuck if I understand your post the contents of Wood Badge, the advanced leadership course for adults in BSA, was very similar in content to leadership courses you have taken professionallY? That is great and of no surprise. Certainly you understand that BSA volunteers come from all walks of life and not everyone has had the professional leadership training exposure outside of scouting that you have had. Your complaint about Wood Badge seems not to be about the course but about the characteristics of some of the participants who came to Wood Badge with poor leadership habits. When you go to a hospital do you not expect to see people who are sick? When you go tho church do you not expect to see people who sin? What better place is there to go for volunteer leaders who have the poor skills than to a training course where they can be exposed to better methods. So you learned leadership from BSA training courses, that's great. You know there were alot of folks who didn't like TLT and yet you say you learned a lot fron it especially after you had gained experience afterward to mingle with it. Well by coincidence there are some people who do not like the current training, but many of the people who take it will, like you, find value in it as they gain more experience and have more opportunities to apply it. I am happy to hear that the training you gained through the BSA has been successful for you.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

The first uniform you describe meets the Activity uniform elements set by the BSA and the wearer can use the Scout salute. The second uniform you describe does not, and the wearer should use the 'hand over the heart' salute. (That is if the desired intention is to follow the rules for uniforming and flag coutesy.)

SctDad Consider this scenario. A man walks into a dostors office and says "can you help me I have an ingrown toe nail"? Looking you the docter can see a steel pipe that has been dren through the patients chest. The doctor says "you have a much more serious problem that you nbeed to take care of first. At which point the man becaomes angry becasue the doctor doewsn't waht to deal with his toenail. You are that patient. By-lwsa are the least of your problems. You are holding an activity foir a cub pack that is frbiden not only by the BSa but you are likely committing a crime in your own state. You need to pause and take care of the steel pipe before you worry about your toenail. The size of the pack is irrelevant. You need to learn the program before you can hope to deliver it, no matter how many scouts you have. And you need to learn the rules and follow them before you do something that could seriously effect your ability to even be a scout leader.

The BSA recognizes two youth uniforms and stipulates the items of apparel needed for each. It is appropriate to use scouting hand salutes when wearing eiither the Official Uniform or the Activiy Uniform. When not wearing the specified elements for either uniform the correct salute is the civilian "hand over the heart" salute.

It really never meant anything to our scouts if you knew how to pack for a troop meeting. We always taught how to pack at a troop meeting, we had a game where you practiced packing, and then we tested the scout on campouts. If a scout believed he packed properly he could take his pack to one of the authorized scouts or scouter who had learned how to test the requirement and show them that he did it correctly. Yes, they looked for the ten essentials as well as other elements of good pack preparation that are in the Handbook.

Currently the BSA designates two uniforms the "official uniform" and the "activity Uniform" (clss A and B are miltary terms and hve no official meaning in the BSA) A Scout may use the Scout salute when wearing either uniform. The BSA deisgnates what items constitute the uniforms. For the Activity Uniform the BSA designates a Scouting related t-shirt or sport shirt with scout shorts or pants, scout belt, and scout socks. Anything worn other than the prescribed uniforms is not disallowed by the BSA, but it is not "in uniform". Local units ands camps have the authority to restrict whatever they want but they do not have the authority to alter the two uniforms. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

The rowdiest kids are always going to dislike the adult that requires them to behave.

Again with distance? What makes 300 ft better than 275 or 150 or 8? It is more important that the patrol can be developed to function, and is allowed to function, on activities WITHOUT YOU or any other adult having to be present whether 30 feet, or 300 ft, or 30 miles away. That is when the patrol method is at its pinnacle and it is not dependent on any specific distance. Anyone can read that BSA Handbooks or attend the training and see that the BSA supports the Patrol Method and wants patrols to go on activities ON THIER OWN, under youth leadership, just as BP and Hillcourt encouraged. NOTHING HAS CHANGED. You rant over elements that still exist that you simply refuse to acknowledge. One would think that you would be happy that these elements are still in scouting. You want them to be but then you get beligernet when you find out that they are. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

The explanation that a patrol can do activities on their own without adult supervision is on page 28 of the Patrol Leaders Handbook The agenda for a patrol meeting is on pages 62,63 The different types of patrol activities and various resources and elements for planning those activities can be found in Chapter 5 pages 69 to 86. The leadership characteristics can be found on pages 7-16 and in chapter 6 pages 86-112 The scout learns the details of these skills and characteristics through the coaching and mentoring given by adult leaders. We call that the Leadership Development Method by the way. You really do not choose to see the contents and resources of the BSA or acknowledge the fact that they still teach and support independent Patrol activities. Hopefully others will not be as myopic. I urge you to contact National Forests, as well as State and County Parks in your area and ask if youth groups without adult supervision can camp there. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

What simpler unique identifier other than your SSN can you think of to make sure that when you, John Doe, apply to be a scout leader, that you are not confused with John Doe who was arrested for a violent crime in Puff Bluff Arkansas 10 years ago? Is it perfect? No, but at the moment it is the most available, and least expensive way to crosscheck an indiviual unique identifier. Is it a personal risk, yes, but certainly not as great a risk as parents take when they voluntarily send their child off for a weekend with someone whose background has not been checked and approved by the BSA. I do not blame you for your caution, nor do I fault the BSA for theirs. But since this is their house that you want to come into then you need to play by their rules, or just agree to part ways with no hard feelings on either side.

Leadership Development replaced Patrol Leader Training, in title only, it did not replace the Patrol Method. The Method name changed from Patrol Leader Training to Leadership Development, because we train more youth than just Patrol Leaders, so to reflect that they changed the name of the Method. The Method itself did not change, only the title. And the Patrol Method did not alter one little bit. Again, you continually intermix the Patrol Method with Leadership Development Method when in fact they refer to two different tools of the BSA program. You cannot reach a logical conclusion if you continually refuse to use true premises. Forget knowing the Ranger...It helps more to know the program! The patrols in the unit I served as Scoutmaster would go the the scout camp on their own. It doesn't matter how well you know the ranger if camp is near capacity you cannot help how close to another occupied site you are. if the sides are 150 feet away from each other it does not alter their ability to function as a patrol. The important thing is not distance, The important thing is having the skills and abilities needed to operate as an independent unit. Perhaps you do not train Scouts to be able to function independently but the BSA still does. It is still in the handbook and still taught. If you see units that do not develop patrols to be independent then that is an adult leadership problem for not following the BSA program. The BSA does not lead troops, volunteer leaders do. It is not the BSA's fault if leaders do not follow the program methods. "It is one of the very few elements of Baden-Powell's Wood Badge that remain in some Wood Badge courses." You are wrong Kudu, this is not a "Wood Badge element", functioning as separate entities is a long standing basic element of the Patrol method and is not tied to any specific distance. It is inane to think that a patrol can only function if its is X distance from another campsite, no matter what distance you want to insert. The patrols are not in their campsites all that much so they could just as easily be 100 feet apart and it would not make a difference. You simple have no idea what the actual administrative or educational elements of Wood Badge are or why they exist. And again, Wood badge is not the only training or activity where elements of the Den Method or Patrol Method are used, so to call it a "Wood Badge element" is just wrong. Wood Badge coursed are normally staffed by trained experienced scouters who know that the BSA program methods support patrols being able to function independently and so they use the resources available to them to help enhance that BSA Method. Since Wood Badge course normally have the entire campground reserved we tend to make use of as much of that space as possible. To suggest that I said this was a "Wood Badge element" is a gross misrepresentation of the truth. Its a good scouting practice that most any trained Scoutmaster or assistant SM know, they just dont all use it. I have camped in national forests and I know that you cannot have a campsite that does not have at least 1 person age 21 or older in. The same is true of State parks and County parks in my State, and I would bet in your State as well. And very few have a group site where there would be enough room for multiple patrols to be 300 feet from another campsite. Your posts though wordy have little actual fact in them. You misrepresent terms, you misrepresent the BSA training course contents, you misrepresent how the BSA teaches the Methods and what the Methods actually mean. The BSA did not drop Patrol Leader Training as a Method, they kept the Method and merely changed the name to reflect the fact that we train more than just patrol leaders. Your rant is over a non-issue. The things you say do not exist in the BSA still do, it's just that not everyone follows the BSA program. You think you are some kind of visionary or renegade when in fact the things you harp on from "BPs Boy Scout Program" that you 'refuse to give up' are in fact still taught and supported in today's BSA program. The problem is you spend more time learning about the past then you have spent learning about the present. You do not like today's program even though you are doing it, you just dont realize that we still teach it. Kind of ironic when you think about.