Bob White

I am glad you are not looking for a debate and only want to know the BSA's position. So I hope that being true to your word once you read the BSA's position you will have no more need to continue on this topic (as it is better suited to the Issues and Politics board if in fact what you really want is to create a debate). Here then is the BSA's position on people who have personal values that differ from the values of the Scout Oath and Scout Law. http://www.scouting.org/Media/Positions/diversity.aspx I hope this resolves your curiosity, BW (This message has been edited by Bob White)

acco40 I think a candidate who uses the leadership skills and chooses to include in his plan safety lessons that he has learned through scouting shows that he understands the purpose and goal of project exercise. That is different than people believing, or being led to believe, that the BSA policies are actually in force or that it is a youth's responsibility to enforce them. Wearing a t-shirt is not a problem, the problem comes in wearing a uniform, it gives the impression, whether intentionally or not, that this is a scouting activity carrying the endoresement and protections of the BSa, Council, or unit. It is none of those and so wearing the scout uniform and implying that it is would be inappropriate. The merit badge scenario is this: When a scout participates in team sport at school and uses it to fulfill a merit badge requirement, the activities with the team are not scouting activities, it is not controlled by BSA policies, the BSA at no level insures any of the participants or property, and he should not wear a scout uniform while he participates. The activity is "outside the sphere of scouting" yet he can apply it to his advancement, the same is true of the Eagle Service Project. BW

A small councils main reason for consolidating in to a larger council is because they are in financial trouble. It is unlikley their board would choose to stay in debt in order to support the SE. And no SE with a father-in-law at the national headquarters is looking to stay in a small council when you consider that larger councils pay higher salaries. Your scenario is highly unlikely, although the scouters who prefer rumors and conspiracies will undoubtly buy into it.

We had a healthy sized pack, 14 dens with two leaders in each den, and a pack committee that ranged from 9 to ?? in any given year. Combined meetings were too large so we had separate Den leader meetings that I chaired as the cubmaster. They were mini-roundtables where we incorporated skills, activities, and training. The I represented the program folks at the actual committee meeting. We got far more accomplished and I'd rather go to two productive meetings a month, than one unproductive meeting a month. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

I am saying that the real world of scouting is what you make it. How the scout aopproaches his advancement and how he approaches people about his project will depend largely on what he is taught to do. Teach him the way to act and that is he probably what he will do. But if no one is teaching him the right thing then chances are good he will not know what the right thing to do is. When ever I discuss Patrol activities with Scoutmasters the majority always say the same thing, "I don't have any scouts who could do that!" As if it was the scouts fault for not having the skills. Well Duh! Who was supposed to be developing the skills of the scouts so that they can suceed independently??? If nobody is teaching them then how are they supposed to know what to do. If you want to change the way that scouts view advancement and their projects...then just teach them.

Attempteed wit and sarcasm aside Scott I think what you are trying to do for your father is very nice. Since I don't know your age or your experience in buying memorabilia I won't take the same tack that others have taken in answering your question. You are asking for something that will be very, very difficult to find. Any first edition book that is almost 100 years old will be neither plentiful or cheap. Baden-Powell's 1910 Scouting for Boys, and the BSA's 1911 Official Handbook for Boys in their original are no exception. I am sure that if you to use the reprints to finish your dad's collection he would understand and really appreciate the gift. Good Luck BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

" I have no qualms saying that it is outside the sphere of scouting. At the same time, I realize that the benefitting organization realizes that the boy is serving them in order to earn his Eagle or that the boy is doing the project to both benefit the organization as well as to earn his Eagle as approved by the district. It is a scouting related activity for the boy done outside of scouting." How the scout relates his leadership to the benefitting organization will depend on how he is trained by his leaders to approach the activity. As an example. There is nothing in the BSA that says the scout should say "I am working on my Eagle rank can I do a project for you?" He could just as easily learn to say "as a Boy Scout I have learned the importance of "service to others" I have also learned many good leadership skills. I would like to help your organization be leading a service project on your behalf. What kinds of things do you need done that I could organize and take care of for you? This way the benefitting organization, AND the scout, keep in mind that what gets done for the organization is more important than the reward for the scout. As for the project being scouting related to the scout...It is the BSA's hope as expressed in their Mission Statement that EVERYTHING a scout does relates to scouting and the ideals he learns through scouting, the Eagle project is not unique in that aspect is it? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Posting something on the Internet is not a magical wand that suddenly makes everyone aware of the information. They still have to find it and read it just as with the manuals. While the BSA is putting more and more on the web all the time, you still have to read it! And a lot of volunteers don't...EVER. Having topic specific manuals makes a lot of sense. While not perfect it does keep costs down by being able to update fewer publications at a time. When an advancement policy is added or changes the BSA only has to republish a 60 page manual rather than the entire Scoutmaster handbook. "what needs to change or are we volunteers just too dumb & ignorant to understand the simple and easily understood requirements of the BSA? No, I don't think we all are. But I accept the fact that volunteers come from all walks of life and that not every person has the needed tools to be successful at everything they choose to do, and not all leaders are selected based on their abilities, aptitudes, and attitudes. So there will always be a percentage of any volunteer force that will never have the ability to learn the job, or do it correctly. The goal is to not be one of them, and when in the position to select others be diligent in your choosing.

At this stage of the game it can be a real battle to get scouts properly uniformed after they have been told for years that blue jeans are uniform pants. -The first thing I would do is get adults fully uniformed. -Then make a plan that makes full uniforming affordable for the cubs you currently have. -Then as new cubs join let parents know from the beginning what a correct uniform is and what the units expectaions are. Maybe fun is not the best word but certainly uniform inspections should be positive experiences. Recognize improvement Reward completeness Make positive statements about what the scout did right rather than about what he did wrong Make suggestion as as to how they can improve as a group rather than spotlight individuals. But unless the adults are correctly uniformed you will never get the parents to buy in to the process. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

SR540Beaver Why not call it what the BSA calls it? An activity that is outside the sphere of scouting. The baseball game in high school that a scout plays in that fulfills a merit badge requirement is not a scouting related activity. It is a high school related activity. The youth is there representing the school, he is under school supervision, he wears the schools uniform, he is protected by school insurance, he is controlled by school rules. It is unrelated to scouting...AND YET...it can be applied to scouting advancement. The activity is "outside the sphere of scouting" Label it what you like, the BSA is telling you what they say it is. But be cautious that you do not mislead others into believing that there are responsibilities, policies, and protections in place based on the belief that it is a scouting related activity when in fact it is not.

So now this has become a matter of manhood has it? That's fascinating. And by what blessing of authority was that judgemental crown bestowed upon you BadenP?

I think a lot of this comes from overzealous scoutmasters who retire their way onto district committees, and rather than get retrained they try to form the actions of the committee into "their opinion" of scouting rather than learn the job. I know we have that same battle in the district I serve with the Eagle project committee. The role of the district advancement committee is not to tell the scout how to plan or lead the project. Their job is to see that the BSA requirements relating to what must done BEFOTRE the work begins has been completed. THAT'S ALL. It's a 15-minute task at best that does not require the scout to be present. Everything the committee needs to know can be found in the project workbook. OGE's example of what happened with a scout is a perfect example. If this was in fact a district or council event then the district could have stopped it. But they have no authority to do so because it is not a scout activity. It is an activity "outside the sphere of scouting" that is applied toward scout advancement and nothing more. The district's role is to determine if the requirements set byu the BSA have been met and if work can be applied within scout advancement or not.

A scout shirt tucked in to blue jeans is not a scout uniform. Here is what the Cub Scout Leader Book says about such an "outfit" under the heading "How to Uniform Your Pack" " Uniform parts should not be worn separately or with civilian clothing. The entire uniform should be worn or not at all. The pack does not have the authority to make changes in the uniform." Chapter 12 of The Cub Scout Leader Book You can find tips on how to do uniform inspections in chapter 12 of the Cub Scout Leader book. Holding uniform inspections will not help to strengthen uniforming when the scout moves into a troop. Supporting complete and proper uniforming from the time boys join cubbing is what will make a difference. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

The sheath knife legend is another one that still lingers and has for years, just as tearing corners off of a Toten'chip card, having to wear a uniform when traveling to be covered by insurance, scoutmasters having to sign Scout Spirit, just a few of the urban legends that still infiltrate the scouting program. I know we did a thread on this years ago, but with so many new leaders and new forum members maybe this is a good time to revisit those myths of scouting and get people thinking about what really is and isn't a part of the scouting program.

"What would need to change to have scouter understand that an Eagle Scout Project is not a Scouting Activity?" That's a great question OGE and I wish it had an easy answer. As with most problems with any organizqtion I think it comes down to training and selecting the right people for the job. That fact that things change is not unique to scouting, nor is that fact that some people refuse to change a unique situation to scouting. I think if people got past the emotional grasp of the "Eagle" qand simply took an objective look at the Project they woud see that is is done "outside the sphere of scouting". Consider these elements: -It is done off of scouting property -for the benefit of an organization other than scouting. -No other scouts or scout leaders are required to be present. -No Scouting rule or regulation can be imposed on anyone there who is not with a scout unit or not there as a scout leader. -The BSA accident insurance and BSA liabilty protection does not cover anyone or anything at the project, unless they are there as part of a unit activity. -While a unit may attend the project as a unit activity, the BSA states clearly that the project itself cannot be done as part of a unit activity. -The SM, Committee and District Advancement committee have NO AUTHORITY over the project and cannot stop the candidate from doing the project, they can only determine whether the activity can be applied to the advancement or not. When you consider these points there is no way that this is a scouting activity, it is simply an activity that the youth can apply to his scouting. Just as a scout on a high school sports team can apply the activity to his merit badge but the games are not scout activities and he would not wear a scout uniform. The project is no different. I honestly believe the only solution to situations like this and other "traditions" and urban legends that so many scouters accept as fact is education. People need to learn their jobs. take the training, read a few short manuals. And we need to be choosing people who are willing to learn. Finally, people need to get rid of the mind set of "if everyone else does it this way then they must be right". A leader should be capable of at least a small amount of independent research and rational thought.

Service to others is not a part of every scout activity, nor is adult association, No one said that the project was not a part of the boy's BSA carrer, it just is not a scout activity. It is an activity done by a scout, but there are scouts who are on the wrestling team, that does not make wrestling a Scout activity. There are scouts on the Speach team, that does not make a Speech Event a scout activity. The fact that a scout is invloved does not make it a scout activity. There is no such thing as a individual scout activity. All activities take place at a Patrol, Troop, Council, Regional, or National level. Eagle candidate serve projects are none of these. All scout activities have some things in common. What are they? Which level of activity does an Eagle prject fall in? "All the BSA is trying to do is get the scout to look outside the BSA and become a member of the community. Plenty of scout do projects for the BSA as service hours. This is a gental push of a fledgling eagle out of the BSA nest." While that might be your opinion Firkat, that is not at all what the BSA says is the difference between the two types of service nor is that the stated goal for the Eagle project. And are you suggesting that it is appropriate to wear the BSA uniform when doing any service project? Because that would be incorrect as well.

So Schiff, you are convinced that the Eagle Project is a scout Activity? Tell me what elements that are common to all scout activities can be found in an Eagle Serviuce Project?

There's not necessarily a consistent policy adoption process, Not true at all. BSA policies, rules, regulations, whichever label you give them must all be approved by a majority vote of the BSA executive board. There is a formal adoption process that every policy goes through. As for telling what ios a policy or regul;ation and what is not isnot hard to distiguish at all. If the title of the document doesn't give that away then you will find either adjoining text telling you that it is from the BSA rules and regulations, or you will find it in bold text with a footnote telling you that it is a policy as in the case of the Guide to Safe Scouting. There is no ambiguity between what is a rule, and what is a program recomendation that I have seen thus far.

There are many different rules and regulations in the BSA not all of them affect all levels of the scouting. Some are organizational, some procedural, some are program related. Since not every rule is needed by every level of scouting the BSA has arranged them in topic specific manuals and forms. For instance rules and policies related to safety are in the Guide to Safe Scouting. Policies and procedures related to advancement are in the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual. Rules on fundraising are on the back of the Unit Money Earning Application. Rules on uniforming are in the Insignia Guide. This way, rather than just have a book that lists rules, we have the the rules shown in context to the topic the relate to and how they apply. This not only makes them easier to find and understand but makes it less expensive and easier to update. The rules and policies that effect unit program and operation will almost always fall into the categories or Safety, Advancement, Uniforming, Fundraising, and Membership, and they are easily found in manuals and forms readily available on line or from your local Scout Service Center. Organizational Rules which make up the bulk of the BSA Rules and Regulations, effect the BSA at Council and National corporate levels and are unrelated to unit operations. Because of that you will rarely have need to refer to them. Even Council level scouters and professionals rarely have need to refer to them. Each Council office has a copy of the BSA Rules and Regs on hand. They are not secret they are simply unrelated to the responsibilities of unit level volunteerism. So you see there is nothing secretive at all about them.

Nessmuk Somewhere along the line I think you missed the big bold print ion the Wood Badge promotional materials. Wood Badge is not a Scout Skill training course and hasn't been for many years. I forst attended Wood Badge 28 years ago and even then it did not have advanced scout skill training. Wood Badge is not promoted as being aboiut scout skills. It is a leadership skills training, hence the constant emphasis on...leadership skills. Focusing on the patrol method would be a good idea if Wood Badge were a scoutmaster skills course...but it's not. Spending time on the datails of the patrol method will not help a pack committee chair, or a district commissioner, or a den leader, or several other positions in scouting all of whom attend the same course. Which is why the focus is on leadership skills that can applied in any leadership role in or out of scouting. For information specifically for troop leaders I would recommend local Roundtables, University of Scouting, and Philmont Training Conferences, many of which deal specifically with advanced skill training for scoutmasters and asst scoutmasters.

Gunny as you do some reading about the Scouting program one of the things you will find is that the local scout volunteers do not set the policeis and procedures of the BSA program, nor are personal opinions a factor. The national office of the BSA determines polices and procedures of the program and they publish them in several easy to find resources so that myths and legends do not need to be passed from one untrained scouter to another. Each leader has the ability to learn the actual information from the actual authority, the BSA. As for your repeated passage, it is important to understand that the Scout is not representing the BSA at any level. This is not a troop project so he is not representing the troop. It is not a council or district project, it is not a national BSA project. it is a person service that the candidate is providing the benefitting organization. He is not representing the BSA, he is using his service "outside the sphere of scouting" to apply toward a BSA rank just as the scout playing on the highshool baseball team is not playing as a scout but is applying the activity to his BSa advancement. When the candidate meets outside the troop in the planning and carrying out of this project he represents the benefitting organization and the project NOT the BSA. In fact when it comes to procurriung the needed resources for the project the uniform regulations specifically prohibit the scout from representing himself as a representative of the BSA or from using the name of image of the BSa to procure donations for an outside organization. The problem here is that people are are emotional over this being related to "Eagle Scout " and they are not looking at the actual facts of the activity and how the uniform and advancement policies relate to it. They are basing their "opinion" on habits and folk lore just as you did with your belief about the use of power tools, rather than objectively look at the BSA policies and procedures that govern the activity. You will find in scouting that "tradition" is often another way of saying "we have done it wrong for so long that now we actually believe it's right," (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Bear in mind the Age Appropriate Guidelines are just that ...guidelines. That are not policies. The policies on tools are found in the Guide to Safe Scouting. And nowhere do they prohibit scouts of any age from using power tools. The BSA teaches that before ANYONE uses a tool they should be trained, capable, and under appropriate supervision. I was a Webelos Den leader over 20 years ago and we had Cubs using dremel tools (a power tool) to shape and finish pinewood derby cars. It was allowed then and it is allowed today.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"Excuse me Bob White, but does that mean he gets to use power tools too? " An excellent question, and it exposes yet ANOTHER scouting urban legend. Please show me ANYWHERE in ANY BSA training or ANY BSA resource where a Boy Scout is prohibited from using power tools. It does not exist. There are only two tools which the BSA specifically prohibits Scouts from using, a chain saw and a log splitter...that's it! It is hard to believe such myths continue especially consider the wealth of training and information available for any leader to learn the facts from. Can a Scout use a power tool? A Scout can do anything that he has been properly trained to use under proper supervision providing it is not specifically prohibited by the BSA. And except for the two specific tools named in the Guide to safe Scouting there is nothing that prohibits scouts from using power tools. Can a non-scouting member use a power tool... well certainly the BSA has no authority to say they can't. The BSA has no authority over a non-member not on scout property. If a scout unit as a troop activity participates in ANY service project then those scouts are subject to BSA regulations NOT there as guests of the troop, and who are not on BSA property. Plus, the candidate is not the person responsible for seeing that the unit adheres to BSA policy. The registered adult leaders are responsible for the safety of the scouts just as in any troop outing. The candidate is responsible for leading the project and the project belongs to the benefitting organization not the BSA at any level. I welcome anyone who knows of any BSA reference material that prohibits scouts from using power tools (other than the two specific ones I have mentioned) to post that refence in this thread. Gunny What your SE is really going to disagree with is the thought that a candidates project is a BSA activity which would meann that all the people involved would be covered by BSA accident insurance, and the BSA would be liable for damages or injuries at the project site...cause they are not. Because it is not a scout activity and it is done "outside the sphere of scouting".

the BSA does not approve whether or not the candidate can do the project! They only determine whether the work can be applied toward advancement. The candidate can lead the project whether or not the BSA agrees to apply to it to advancement. Why can the candidate do that? Because it is not the BSA's project it is the beneffitting organizations project and the candidate leads it as a volunteer for the beneffiting organization. Let me ask this question. At a project led by an Eagle candidate, with no scout units present (as none are required), what BSA youth protection policies or Guide to Safe Scouting policies must the project abide by? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

You agree that the candidate is not formally representing the BSA or even the troop since this is a personal project, and you know that the BSA says that it is not appropriate to wear the uniform when not representing scouting. Did I understand you correctly? And yet you support the scout wearing the uniform when not representing scouting based on your opinion rather than the elements of the BSA uniform regulations. Is that correct? Remember we are not talking about what others do, or what others think, we are discussing what the uniform regulations are, and how that relates to the the fact that the project is not a scout activity but an activity of the benefitting organization outside of scouting. Again, consider the merit badge scenario, there is no difference between that and the project. Put aside the emotion of being related to "Eagle Scout" and look at the specific elements activity. It is an outside activity not a scouting activity.