Bob White

jblake, I just want to make sure I understoodd your last post. You are saying that you gave yourself a patch to wear even though you admit that you did not and could not not meet the stated requirements for earning it, because you felt you deserved it anyway? Is that correct? And just as a comparitive post, in a thread about knots you felt that a person who was selected by a committee of scouters for the Silver Beaver who lead an FOS campaign did not bring credit to the award. But you gave yourself a recognition that you say you did not earn. How exactly is that better?

I know the policies very well merlyn, better thab you no doubt. And I have discussed then with several national directors in the BSA over the years including just a few months ago with the director of the Division responsible for this area of concern. I sincerely doubt Merlyn that you can honestly make that same claim. I can tell you that the BSA has the authority and the right to remove the membership of anyone they choose. That does not mean they have to do it right away. They can excercise that right when they feel they must. There is nowhere that says they do it immediatley is there Merlyn?

acco40 asks "Bobwhite - were you insulted when the BSA change the minimum age requirement to join? Where you insulted when they allowed females to become Cubmasters, Scoutmasters and Assistant Scoutmasters? Do you find any change (i.e. going away from traditional) insulting?" Not at all and why should I, the BSA can change what they want it is their program. Besides the things you mention are not value based. But people demanding that the BSA lower its standards so that they can join is self defeating. The BSA exists to instill the values that they want removed. They would reduce the BSA to a craft and camping club and that was never its purpose for existing.

Minor program adaptations only. The Aims, Methods, Mission, and policies are no different. Individual charter organizations are free to adapt the program within national limits as well and many do. The only thing unique about the LDS church is that they decided to employ these adaptations on a national scale. Others are able to do so as well.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

As I recall the Lutheran religion began with something tacked on the door did it not? I am glad that anyone can vist your church, just as anyone can visit scouting. But if somebody were to join your church would you not expect them to embrace the Lutheran values? So does the BSA. Does the Lutheran church expect its church leaders to accept and follow the values of the lutheran faith. So does the BSA. All are welcome top visit, believers can join and lead. Your church is not unlike the BSA in its expectations. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

I feel your pain Acco. When the committee's job is to support the program and their actions actually interfere with it, that is an awful dilemna. One which cannot be resolved through the application of BSA rules and regulations being discussed here, but certainly a problem worthy of discussion in its own thread on the topic.

"it has always done it that way" In all my years in commissioning I do not think there was any excuse for not following the scouting program which was used more often than this one.

People who stand for nothing will fall for anything. The BSA is a private organization based on a specific set of standards that are reflected in the Scout Oath and Scout Law. There are no substitutions on this menu. You cannot have an organization that has a 'pick and choose' set of values. The BSA has never made of secret of what those values were. People who do not agree with those values need to seek other organizations where they can associate with like minded folks. The vast majority of members of the BSA are here because they share the same values. The BSA makes no demands on non-members to accept or even agree with their values, but they have every right to expect the members to agree and accept them. When you insult the BSA over their belief in reverence and duty to God, you insult every member in the BSA who holds those same values. Speaking as one of them, I have no interest in playing with people who would insult me and the values I hold dear. Do the values of the BSA cost us members? Sure, a few, but they are not people that the traditional programs exist for or seeks as members. The fact that some people (however many) do not believe in God, does legally or morally obligate the BSA to accept them as members. Do not expect the executive board which is made of the represenatives of the chartering organization, most of whom are faith based organizations, to budge on the matter of atheism. It is not gonna happen.

The "BSA" is a corporation that by its bylaws is controlled by its national board which is made up of representatives of some of the larget organizations that sponsor scouting units in the US. Those organizations include The Catholic Church, The LDS church, the Methodist Church, and other major religions in the US. Do you really believe that they will veer away from their traditional values based on the desires a a tiny number of atheists and agnostics in the country? Not gonna happen. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

I will repeat what I said in case you misunderstood. Nowhere does the BSA say it will remove from membership a scout who says he does not believe in God. I do not disagree that an athiest cannot join. Nor do I disagree that a scout who decides he is an athiest cannot advance. And it is true that the BSA has the authority to remove an athiest from membership. But there is nothing in the BSA that says a scout who says he does not believe in God will be removed from membership. It is an option that the the BSA can excercise at will. But the BSA leaves open the oppportunity for the program to have an effect on the scout. Removal is neither the preferred action or a guaranteed action.

Keep in mind that nowhere does the BSA say it will remove the membership of a youth that says he does not believe in God. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

The site you link to is not your council's so contacting the council will not help you. The 800 help line links to national.

Scoutmaster and committee chairman need to communicate better and the Committee chair is wrong for holding the committee meeting during the troop meeting. The adult leaders primary role during troop meetings is to be there to observe, evaluate, coach and mentor. Why on earth would the committee purosely drag him away form his duties. The Committee chair has another 26 days a month during which to hold committee meetings, he or she has no need to use one of the 4 or 5 nights a month that the scoutmaster has to hold troop meetings. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

"First of all the program does not say you MUST print the advancement report for the application to let you continue on. " Actually it does. Here is the direct quote from the instruction for submitting the report. " 2. Click Print the Advancement Report. The advancement report will appear in a separate window as a PDF file. You must have Acrobat Reader in order to view the file. You must print the report before you log out." IF after reading and following ALL the instructions provided, if the program still does not function correctly for you then your only recourse is the 800 number given you by your council office.

While not a member of the committee, the scoutmaster attends as the representative of the program. Since the role of the Troop committee is to support the program and the Scoutmaster is the leader of the program it would make sense that the Scoutmaster attend the meeting to share the needs and wishes of the program leaders both youth and adult. Which is why in the basic training they say the scoutmaster attends the committee meeting.

Is it really that uncommon for a program to not function correctly when the operator does not input the correct commands as instructed? I don't think so. Aren't most programs subject to the "garbage in-garbage out" rule?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

The BSA rules and regs are not going to tell you what specific reppercussions a troop or the BSA or will level against anyone. They will tell you in the Guide to Safe Scouting that you cannot use corporal punishment and that the unit can remove a scout from unit membership. The BSA youth protection tells you that a scout leader can face civil or criminal charges for violating the BSA policies. But the Rules and Regs will not give you any more information than you will find in the reference materials available for units on the specific topics that are related to unit operations. Think of it like this, what punishment can you use with your children in your own home? Answer; anything you want that is not illegal. What punishments can the BSA use toward a leader who violates ANY regulation? Answer; Anything they want that is not illegal. What punishment can a unit use for a youth that violates a unit rule? Same answer. What more do you expect the Rules and Regs to tell you? If you think that you need to have the entire contents of the rules and regs of the BSA in order to correctly and safely deliver the scouting program at the unit level then you greatly mislead. Besides if the regulation is that you cannot participate in an event that points lasers at another person then why would one need to know what the punishment would be? Will that determine for them whether or not they obey the rule? If that is what a person feels then leading youth is probably not the role they should be in.

This is not the forst time that New Orleans has flooded (hence the need for levies). It ios a cummunity that lives next to the ocen BELOW sea level, you would think they would have as much incentive and opportunity to be prepared for the floods as the midwesterners. I think that this shows the great weakness that comes from allowing yourself to part of a community that is dependent on the government, as compared to a community that depends largely on personal responsibility. The farmers and other people in the midwest rural community did not wait for the government to help them and did not particularly appreciate the government when they came. They took care of themselves and their neighbors before, during, and after the emergency.

Beavah is incorrect, councils do not routinely supply insurance certificates,since it is not a council event they would have no reason to,especially since no other scout or scout unit is required to be present. The council would have no reason to provide non-scouts or non-scout groups BSA insurance protection. The candidate would be covered by the liability insurance of the benefitting organization, just as a worker on BSA property would be covered by BSA liability protection, or as a neighbor helping you on a project on your property would be covered by your insurance. If the benefitting organization has ATVs that they use to transport people the BSA has no authority to tell them that they cannot use them. Since The safety rule regarding the use of chainsaws refers to youth members on a scouting activity or on BSA property, to have a trained and capable person operating a chain saw off scout property and at an activity that is outside the sphere of scouting as the BSA specifically say the project is, would not be inviolation of any BSA policy. The benefitting organization would be liable for injurioes would probanly instruct the scout that a an adult must use the chainsaqw, or hopefully the scout has been properly trained over the course of his scouting carreer to realize that only a trained adult should operate a chainsaw. But since it is not a scouting activity and the work is done by non-scouts outside of BSA property the BSA would policies have no authority. If a scout unit were present at the project their members, and their members only would be subject to the policies of the BSa, not the non-members that were present. The members that were present as part of a scout unit participating at the projects would be have the benefit of the BSA accident insurance and liability protection, but NOT the non-members preset. EXAMPLE Lets say that a community volunteer whohappens to be a scout leader is in charge of a community event such as a Rodeo. And a troop volunteers to pick up litter at the event. It is not a scout event even though a scout leader is in charge and scouts are present, the event though a restricted event for the troop to sponsor is not a restricted event for the scouter since he is not doing it as a representative of scouting but doiing it outside the sphere of scouting. The troop working at the event is protected by BSA accidet insurance and BSA liability protection, but the scouter in charge is not since he is doing this event as a community volunteer not as a scout leader, nor is any other participant or attendee protected. If a scout working at the activity were injured they would first be covered by the liability coverage of the event organization, secondly but their personal or family insurance and any fees not covered by the first two would then be covered by the BSA accident insurance.

If you read the instructions it tells you that AFTER you submit the form, and BEFORE you try to exit, you MUST first print a hard copy of the report so that you can collect the required signatures. This most likely is what is causing your problems, I recommend that you stop and carefully read all the instructions again prior to trying to submit the attendance.

Removing the Scout for playing Laser tag at an event where they were told not to was the thetroops rule NOT the BSA's, and the troop haas the authority to set their membersgip condition as long as they do not conflict with the BSA's. Is there a a penalty or consequence for taking part in a restricted activity. Yes there is. The BSA can chose to revoke the membership of the adult responsible, but the more likely consequence would be that if someone was injured or if property was dameaged the BSA's liabiality protection would not be inforce since the leadership, by taking opart in a restricted activity, did not show due diligence a condition of the the protection. Now I know that Beavah has disagree with this in the past, but he also thought than having to have the Guide to Safe Scouting in your posession on trip was "silly", and as Firekat has already shown that is a well publicized regulation.

After submitting the report are you printing a hard copy before you try to close out?

When needing to know the rules surrounding a specific activity you can find them in the Guide to Safe Scouting. If there is not a section on the specific activity you should refer to the Restricted Activities list to see if the activity is prohibited. In that list you will see "Pointing any type of firearm (including paintball, dye, or lasers) at any individual is unauthorized. However, law enforcement departments and agencies using firearms in standard officer/agent training may use their training agenda when accompanied with appropriate safety equipment in the Law Enforcement Venturing program. If not on the list then the activity has no specific policies addressing it and you should follow the Sweet 16 of Scouting Safety. Since the troop was meeting outside of the regular meeting place they should have filed a Local Tour Permit which requires that a copy of the Guide to Safe Scouting be on the trip with you. So you should have been able to verify the rule right then. Better yet someone should have known what was there BEFORE the scouts went and have had the forethought to explain to the Souts BEFORE you went that they would not be able to play Laser Tag at that time.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Hi FScouter since you have asked for suggestion on-line I will reply on-line. I think that decorum is the only reason to end a thread, and not whether a mod (or mods) has become personally bored with the topic. Other posters who are no longer interested are free to stop visiting the thread so you are not protecting them from anything, and while the mods must continue monitor the threads that is a condition they chose to accept voluntarily and your personal entertainment was never guaranteed. Too many threads have been ended simply because a mod was no longer interested in the topic and for no other reason. Posts that do not add or seek information on the topic should be removed by the mods. No explanation should be needed; the poster knows what he or she did. Posts that are about another poster and not about a scouting topic should be removed. No explanation should be needed; the poster knows what he or she did. Posts that use foul or questionable language should be removed. No explanation should be needed; the poster knows what he or she did. Posters who want to share song lyrics should start a new thread or be removed. Interrupting people having a conversation by "singing" is rude. No explanation should be needed; the poster knows what he or she did. Most of all I think moderators should be moderate. If you are going to take a position on a topic in a thread then you need to remove yourself as a monerator in that thread. A moderator should be moderate. You cannot allow some posters to verbally insult others only when you do not like their target either. The behavior is either acceptable to all posters or unacceptable to all. just my .02 BW

Your focus is on the wrong portion. To put the context of what you quoted in its proper perspective you needed to read and understand the previous portion. "Today, the organization still stands firm that their leaders exemplify the values outlined in the Scout Oath and Law. On June 28, 2000, the United States Supreme Court reaffirmed the Boy Scouts of America's standing as a private organization with the right to set its own membership and leadership standards. The BSA respects the rights of people and groups who hold values that differ from those encompassed in the Scout Oath and Law, and the BSA makes no effort to deny the rights of those whose views differ to hold their attitudes or opinions." The BSA is not a camping club, it is an educational program that teaches a specific value set. There is no point in a person who rejects any of the values to be a member. If a person did not accept the values of the jewish faith it would be silly of them to want to convert to Judaism. If a person did not agree with the values of the Rotary Club, why then would they want to be a Rotarian. Now that you have the BSA's position as you requested I hope that you would not pursue what is a very political issue with some scouters and will surely begin a debate if you continue. (This message has been edited by Bob White)