Bob White

That's an excellent suggestion Hal.

Have you considered that you could call them and ask for an e-mail address to send it to?

Okay so you didn't inform the BSA yet. Here is there Phone Number. They should be open tomorrow. When you call tell the operator you are concerned about some inappropriate use of the Scouting uniform on the internet as well as website using the Cub Scout nasme that is inappropriate and you would like to report it. They will put you in touch with the right office. I found this number by entering Boy Scout National office phone number into google. It was the first site returned. 972-580-2000(This message has been edited by Bob White)

It's not about the word as I said NJ that was a simple mistake, I was addressing that some leaders never read the handbook beyond the requirements pages and because of that they do not understand the requirement. Forget the error on the words "or/and" NJ, if you knew that using the tracks was acceptable then why did you say I was wrong? You focused on what you thought the requirement was rather than what the Handbook explained the skill to be. You looked no further than the requirements page and determined I was wrong. And that was my point. Folks need to read the Handbook not just the requirements.

That's terrible Firekat, what did the BSA national office say when you gave them the information?

"BW, the boat all depends on how fast the USCG can get there, yes? Not necessarily ASM915, for a few reasons. USCG is not the only agency on the water with emergency services for one thing. Depending on the vessel, you might have professional medical services on board. Not all boating will be High Adventure. Crewing a race boat yes, whitewater rafting certainly. But pleasure cruising in a light breeze in sight of a marina, not so much. Just as not all land activity is high adventure not all water activity is. But when it is if ground evacuation would exceed 30 minutes then the policy would apply (This message has been edited by Bob White)

You are not alone Schiff, lots of folks do things they are not supposed to do. The only difference is as Scoutleaders we are supposed to be setting a different example. You had a choice of helping the Salvation Army without violating BSA policies. You simply chose not to. The Scouts probably are not even aware that they are doing anything wrong. They probably counted on you to guide them according to the rules of the program. After all they would be just as proud about helping others and have just as much fun without wearing the uniform. Go figure.

With millions of people having access to the uniforms of the BSA you have to have some way to protect the image of scouting from being misused. To that end the BSA prohibits the use of scouts or scouters IN UNIFORM from soliciting for other organizations. Nothing keeps the scout or scouter from volunteering to help anyone or ringing bells for the Salvation Army. The BSA justs instructs that there is no need to tie the BSA to the actuivity. Do it as a good citizen. You know you are a scout, there is no need for you to advertise it to others. You are there for the Salvation Army not for Scouting.

To whom are you addressing these questions Scoutnut?

So given the choice Basementdweller would you rather be in a scouting situation where you had a good Charter relationship, enough leaders, enough money, supportive parents, and good equipment...or would you rather have the problems you have. It's a choice. Units that have these things did not get them from dumb luck. There is no Scouting fairy that come in the night and drops these things in you r lap. They come from following proven methods. Units that don't have your problem did't get this way by whining about other people in the unit and the job they do or don't do. So would you rather have your problems or the successess that others enjoy? It's your choice. By the way, you never serve enough scouts!

A perfect example Eagle 92. Patrols have ALWAYS been able to to hikes and overnight campouts without adults with the permission if the Scoutmaster ...ALWAYS. Even when you were a scout. Your leaders either did not know or did not tell you. It is still in the Handbook today. In fact is in the Scoutmasters Handbook, the Guide to Safe Scoutin, the Youth Protection training, AND it is in the syllabus of the Leader Specific Training. The problem is not in the BSA program, it is the lack of use of the BSA program by some scouters. If you are in a unit where scouts are not doing activities independent of adults it is not because of the scouting program, it is because of the leaders in that specific unit.

A boat at sea is definitely high adventure and nothing in the requirement says that you must reach shore in 30 minutes. It would appear that the requirement would not come into play until the boat reached shore. At that point if the victime could not be evacuated by ground within thirty minutes then the policy would apply. It would depend on the area in which you were boating and your resources. A canoe in the backcountry would likely fall within the conditions of the policy, a boat cruising a few miles of shore near marinas would probably not. However as a matter of good boating safety the weight limits given are not unreasonable for high adventure boating. The greatest hazard is not someone who gets injured while on the boat. The problem is when an injured victim is overboard and must be brought back onboard.

Sounds delicious but it really would not require a dutch oven since this is a pan fry recipe and not an oven baked one. You should be able to do this in a large fry pan with a lid and the bottom heat of a camp stove since it would give you better heat control than a campfire. While you might be able to do this in a dutch oven they work best as a baking unit when you want to heat the air around the food in order to bake it. Ideally you place more coal on the lid than underneath in order to bake the food item inside. A good thing to do would be practice it at home first before you try it at camp.

"Like sailin' into Canadian waters on the Great Lakes." Any restrictions of that are controlled by federal laws more so those of the BSA. The BSA would require only a float plan and National tour permit. The Laws of the US. and Canadada require much more. I really do not think you have enough information on boating or on the Sea Sea Scout program to comment accuarately on what they can or cannot do. Let's remmebr that it is the BSA program that allows Patrols to camp on their own without adults, and yet we have already shown the vast number of posters on this forum alone who not only have never done this, but even after years of experience in the BSA did not know it was part of the program, despite it being explained in Basic training and numerous BSA resources including the Handbook for many years. The problem is not the program. The problem it appears is the selction of adult leadership in some units. In the Sea Scout Ship I serve we have boats racing every weekend of the sailing season with all scout crews that race several nautical miles, and not in a Sunfish or a Snark but in 22ft long Olympic Class sail boats and day cruisers. The Scouting Program has never lacked adventure. It just has occassional pockets of boring adult leadership. The adventure is waiting out there for anyone with the skills to particpate. If the scouts in a troop lack the skills, then who is responsible for that condition??? Could it be....the Scoutmaster?

Not all summer camps are the same. If the council determines that their program or thier topography makes your participation a "high adventure" activity then Yes, you will be subject to the weight policies that will soon go into effect. If your Council determines that your participation is not a hihg adventure activity then No, the elements of the weight limitation policies do not apply. This really is not hard to understand unless you choose to make it hard. This is a about reducing the difficulty to evacuate an injured person in order to expidite their transportation to professional medical assistance. "I interpret the form to mean that if your backpacking trip, high-adventure site or conservation project is more than a half-hour away from a hospital as the ambulance drives, you're barred." I see nothing in the policy regarding the amout of time prior to recieving medial care, only the amount of time it would take to evacuate the injured person. "Evacuate" and "recieve treatment" are not the same thing. Again if you wish to make the policy tougher than it states then that is your perogative. I see no benefit in doing that.

Scoutldr you do know that as a registered scouter The BSA provides you liability coverage for free as part of your membership right? Was you financial advisor aware of that?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Everything anyone reads is an interpretation, the very act of reading is one of interpretation. That does not mean that there are not correct and incorrect interpretations to everything.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Simply put Hal the policy says "beyond a radius wherein emergency evacuation is more than 30 minutes by ground transportation" It does not say medical attention within 30 minutes, it says "emergency evacuation by ground". They are not the same thing. In your summer camp is there a program or campsite area where yo could not be evacuted from in in thirty minutes be on your way by vehicle or air transport to medical a medical facility? I'll bet not. IS summer Camp high adventure for adults? That depends on te camp doesn't it? The rules makes good sense, and if you do not meet the limits then you are probable a danger to yoiur self and others. Not because of your health altho that mightbe involved. It is because you are too large to be physically carried by others out of a remote area without endangering yourself or those trying to render aid. It's fun to listen to those folks pound their chest and say "Well if they don't want me as leader then blah blah blah blah blah!" It is so easy for them to ponitificate about their self-importance because when they get injured they are not going to be the ones trying to carry that large ego down the mountain. If they were on the hauling end of things they might feel a little differently about the value of the weight limits. Certainly when their stretcher bearers got hold them up anylonger and drop them they might reconsider the hazard they weight poses as the tumble down the side of the mountain. I'm one of the rollercoaster riders myself, and I knew that it was time to start the downward trend again. I am going to lose 18 lbs by Mothers Day so that I meet the limit when the boats go in the water. Who wants to join me in the effort? We can start a thread to chart the loses. No neeed to give your weight we will weigh in once a week and post our losses.

Many of you are misreading the requirement.

I've mad mistakes NJ, and I have always apologized for them. It's a personal choice. I did not ask for an apology or expect one. All I was interested in was folks understanding the reqiuirement and that they have to read other pages besides the requirement pages of the Handbook. We are seeing the same thing in a post from Kudu in another thread. He read the requirement and not the handbook and has misrepresented what it means.. Even though you misread the requirement, had you been famililar with the content of the handbook on that topic do you think you would have made the same error? I am guessing by your handle you are a Cub Scoutleader so I wouldn't expect that you have had reason to read the Boy Scout Handbook. But Don't you think that to discuss the Boy Scout requirements it makes sense to know how the handbook explains the requirement and teaches the skill? My point was not personal and I am sorry that you took it that way. My point was the need to read the handbook beyond the requirements page in order to understand it. At least you are in a another program so it makes sense that you would not need to be as familiar whith this Handbook, but believe me there are scouters who have been Boy Scout Leaders for years, even some on this forum, who do not read past the requirements pages.

I would have explained to the cubmaster that I have a plan, resources, and adult supervision for the cubs in the den I serve, that is my role in the pack. If the other dens need leadership then the Cubmaster and the Committee chair will need to deal with at problem, right? I would say it with a smile and tell him if they need to get new leaders I would be happy to help train them. Then I would go back and work wit the scouts I was responsible for. If you asre going to be taking care of the other Dens then WHY would anyone try and find someone else. They have no problem. You solved their problem by being willing to do everybody else's job for them. You are their savior and your own worst enemy. Here's what else I would have done. I would have minded my own business. The situation with the other leader is between the pack administration and the parents of the Den, and you are neither. That situation affected you only because you allowed it to. No one made you take resposnibility for that Den. The CM and CC should have resolved the problem themselves but you voluntarily gave them a reason not to. All the extra work and all your frustration was created by you, and now you are acting the martyr over it. You are right, it's not your job to worry about the rest of the pack, its your job to do your job correctly. If everyone on the team does that it all works fine. If someone isn't getting the job done then it is up to the Cubmaster and the Committee Chair to fix it, not a Den Leader from another Den. You are as much a cause of your situation as the Den leader who stopped coming.

It woud be a real misunderstanding of the scouting program to think that if the scouts don't bring up Duty to God and Reverence to God then we as leaders do not need to address it. Duty to God and Reverence is an intergal part of the Scouting program, The BSA makes this abundantly clear when it says that its members cannot grow into the best kind of citizen without a religious element. Whether the scout brings it up or not, we have agreed as Scouting program leaders to help every scout along their individual path by including Duty to God and Reverence to God in the unit program. It is not something to shy away from or excuse yourself from because a scout does not bring it up.

Geez Kudu! Use a little common sense here. The requirements don't say to sail those distances perpendicular to the coastline straight out to sea! Heck there are Sea Scouts in the BSA who sail vessels further than that with an all youth crew all the time. Just not out into international waters. There's a BSA Sea Scout requirement for a long cruise of 14 days. It doesn't mean to travel perpendicular to the coast line for two weeks! That would be insane for any youth program to authorize in any country. Good grief how can possibly think that is what those requirements meant? This is where so many of your arguments "jump the shark", you think you know a program from reading a passage in a book. But you have no training or experience in the actual program. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Yeah Scoutnut! Let's not throw over 75 years of program development and resources aside especially for a brand new leader. The BSA training and resources are THE BEST THING for this new leader. Don't ignore Program Helps, USE THEM. They will make your job of planning so much easier. Use Boys' Life magazine, it has great games and magic tricks in it to use as higlights or as pre-opening acytivites while you wait for the others to show up. I think some of the best things for a new leader to know is ..relax, smile, talk nice ALL THE TIME. Be prepared, have a plan, have the items you will be using ready to go, try things out first to make sure you know how to do it and that everything works. Have fun by following the program and using all the great Scouting resources that the BSA makes available to you. You can improvise more as you get more experience and your comfort level improves. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I really was not looking for or expecting an apology, I was explaining the requirement and showing the importance of reading beyond the requirements page. The handbook explains what needs to be done or can be done to learn the skill and to to pass the requirement. I think your error wasan easy one to make and probaly very common when the focus is on the requirements pages and not on the skill itself as it is explained in the Handbook. No apology was needed.