Bob White

Not a terrorist, but you did take something that does not belong to you. The unit belongs to the chartering organization, You are "their" volunteer leader. You agreed to lead the scouting program for "their" unit, not take their unit from them, no matter how good you believe your reasons are. While you might find these strong words you need to understand they are not my words, they are the BSA's, I am simply explaining the facts of the situation. I appreciate that you want to enjoy scouting with your son. Think how much more enjoyable it would be if you were with a CO that wanted a scouting program? Taking over has not solved your problem has it? You did not have a good relationship with the CO before you took over or you would not have needed to, and you have only grown further away from them since the take over. The fact is the actions of the adult leaders took a bad situation and made it worse. Why not sit down with the DE and the IH and re-establish who is responsible for what? Let the IH know that the leaders are willing to continue to volunteer to work with the COs scouting program IF the CO will once again take over their responsibilities, otherwise there is little use volunteering to help with a program that the CO doesn't want to have. You cannot make them keep a scout unit they do not want...and why should you? Are there other troops in the area that have a good CO relationship and good leaders? If so why not go there? But give the unit back to the people that own it, and that's the charter organization. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

TRAINING TRAINING TRAINING You are neither a Venturing Crew, or a Venture Patrol. Until you choose one or the other nobody can help you gey back on track. Two things that might help, A venture patrol cannot earn Venturing awards. What gave anyone the idea that you could only have one Venture Patrol?

By "taking over" you only prove that you do not wsee this as the charter organizaations unit, you see it as yours. if the church doesn't want a choir the choior director doe not get to take it over he or she works for the church. if the School decides not to support the art deptartment the art teacher doesn't get to take it iver, the teacher works for the school. if the chaterter organization doesn't want a scout unit then nobody gets to "take it over", you all work for the chartering organization, it is their scouting progran to support or not support. If you have chosen to volunteer for an activity that the charter organizatiuon does not want then that is a personal problem you will have to deal with but taking over the unit is not an option offered to you by the charter contract held by the BSA and the Charter Organization. You have bit by bit distanced yourselves from the CO until they no longer see or understand their role. By doing so you have poisoned the relationaship. Rather than keep the CO responsible for their role i scouting you have taken their responsibility away, and then you complain they do not fulfill their responsibility...you usurped their authority and hikacked their scout program claiming it as your own.

The world would no doubt be a better place if someday nations who disagreed could just hurl actors at each other. About .19 of each tax dollar goes to defence. Only Social Security gets more than that. When I think about how little that is out of my pocket to protect the freedoms we enjoy and the life we have in this country it seems cheap at twice the price.

Jblake raises an excellent point Patrol Method is not just about camping. It has to do with everythihg the scouts do. They play games as patrols, they meet a patrols, they do service as a patrol, they work on skills as a patrol, they make decisions a a patrol. This is why distance at camp is such a non-issue. The patrol is the patrol ALL the time not just in the campsite. This is why you should never reorganize patrols for games, or combine patrols at campouts, and why patrols work best with scouts of similar ages and interests. All elements of the Patrol Method still taugt by the BSA.

Gern no relationship was jeopardized since no relationship exists. You are not "their' Scout unit, you are only the scout unit that meets "there". You could go meet somewhere else and be ingored just as easily. You have no relationship to damage. At some point when a unit is started a charter organization head knows of the relationship betwen the CO and Scouting. They are reminded each year when they sign the Shared Responsibilities cointract of the annual charter. The Institution Head is responsible for selecting the Charter Organization Representative (preferably from the Board), and a Committee Chair from its membership to represent the CO to scouting and the unit to the CO. Over the years where the first thing usually goes wrong is that the committee tkes it upon themselves to distance the uit from the CO, by selecting theior own chair thus shutting out the CO , and not properly enaging the Charter rep in his or her duties. So without owner representation and without a communication link, the relationship quickly dies. Other units do not want a relationship because God forbid the charter actually sees what is going on and realizes they could be held responsible. This situation comes from the unit having no oversight in the selection and performance of its leaders. Scout leader was never intended to be a papal ordaination where you got the office until you died. Units with strong CO relationships have longer lives, more resources and usually a better program than units with weak or non existent relationships. The key is to understand what a relationship means, mutually beneficial behaviour. The best definition of love I have heard is "the overwhelming desire to do what is best for the other person." But it is a two way street. Most units do nothing to engage the CO and then say that they have no relationship with their charter organization. Why should the unit at this point have to make the first move or moves? Because the unit needs the CO mor than the CO needs the unit, and because the unit is supposed to have TRAINED people in charge.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"CC application was turned in back in january to the cm and turned into council the end of may." I am not sure you understand. Processing paperwork on adult registrations is not the cubmaster's job. It is the committee's, for which the committee chair is responsible.

Training, Training, Training The CC was responsible for most of the issues. (since when does the CC turn adult applications over the the Cubmaster????) There should have been two adults at the den meeting and if there weren't then the CC should have taken action. You will not like to read this but, why are you surprised that the council did nothing if the Committee chair did nothing? Based on your concern I doubt it was that she didn't care, but rather that she did not understand that addressing these issues was her job not the council's. It shows a lack of training. Even if she had just read the Cub Leader Handbook regarding her role in the pack she would (I hope) had taken different action than she did.

First you will need to get rid of all the lawyers. Without the insulation provided by the councils and CO's the BSA would be much smaller with far fewer resources (camps). Look at any other country that operates in the way you suggest and see the difference in the size of the program.

There are lots of outdoor things scouts can do to be outside every month that do not include camping, and if scouts want to camp every month they do not need to do it as a troop every time,they can do it as independent patrols. As far as changing "experienced " leaders, that depends on what kind of experience. If you mean changing guys who have done it incorrectly for years who still think they are right...best of luck, it is unlikely they will ever accept the actual program if they haven't by now. Remember that not every adult wants the youth to be independent. As I have mentioned before BSA volunteers come from all walks of life. Not every one who wants to be a Scout leader should get to be one. Cos and Committees need to take the selection process seriously. They should realize that some folks just like to be "in Charge" if the scouts were to become independent then these kinds of adults would feel like they had no one to boss around. We have all seen these kinds of leaders. Short of a leadership epiphany they will never change. We have even seen on this forum that some of these scouters become trainers and commissioners and teach other scouters how to boss youth around. Leader selection is critical to a good scouting program at every level.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

This has already been discussed at great length in the last 30 days. http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=197440 You might want to just pick up on that thread.

Perhaps you misunderstand the conversation Beavah. We know we agree on the importance of the patrol method. Where we disagree is in two areas. Kudu is hung up on distance when the patrol methods has nothing to do with distance. It is simply about youth gathering in small group doing activities under youth leadership. That is all there is to the "method" of using patrols. The second is in the content of BSA training. Kudu has read a syllabus and does not think that Patrol Method is taught. I have been on training staffs for 28 years and know that it is. Kudu would rather believe it is not cause if he accepts it is then he has to accept that it is the leaders who are the one responsible for not using it rather than being able to blame the nameless and faceless persons of the "BSA" for not teaching it. Finally I did not introduce patrol activities 6 years ago, B-P introduces it 100 years ago, and it's been in every Boy Scout Handbook and every Scoutmaster training course since then. But it takes adult leadership , not just adult leaders, to make it happen. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Troops require two deep leadership, Patrols require the scoutmaster's permission. You will find this in the Scoutmaster Basic Training, The Boy Scout Handbook, Youth Protection Training, The Patrol Leader Handbook, The Guide to Safe Scouting , and other BSA training and resources. The easiest way to develop independence is in stages. It starts with adults stopping the habit of telling scouts what to do and instead asking them what they plan to do next. If they get a good answer say "great!, good plan, if you need anything let me know. I think that is a good decision." then let them go. Later ask how it went. Scouts will begin to trust their own decsions the more you show you trust themand the more often they work out okay. When they don't work out don't yell and don't say "I told you so". Instead ask them where they think they could have done something different that would have gotten a better outcome. If they give a good anser then give them positive reinforcement. If they can't answer then coach them to a better decision. Then suggest the next time they are up against the same thing, try the new option and let you know how it went. As far as independent camping and outings, Do more patrol camping, Why can't a dad and a ASM go with a patrol camping for the weekend, then on another patrol outing they can camp nearby, then on another they can spend the day but not the night, Then they can just stay away. There is a common misconception that a troop is supposed to camp every month. There is nothing in the BSA program that has ever said that. Scouts should do more patrol activities than troop activities and they get to do things that interest them. Soe patrols might like to do fishing trips, others might like to do bike hikes, others want to go to the local pool. The job of the scoutmaster is to see that the youth leadership and the patrol are prepared for independent activities, that they have the skills to be safe and healthy, that they have a plan, and that the parents know the scouts will be on their own. Don't worry how close the next campsite is, worry about developing youth who can be independent because they make decisions based on the values of the Oath and Law and have the skill to carry out the decision. "The Patrol Method is not one way to operate a troop...It is the ONLY way." (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Gutter bird, The hard and the fast of it is that as Scoutmaster your role is to lead the program, and finances is the committee's role. You gave the chair your opinion and he has decided differently. While I agree with you, I respect the fact that the decision is the committee chair's and not yours. I would not waste time fighting him on something that is his responsibility and not yours. "I have a few boys in my troop" I know a lot of scoutmasters call it "my troop" but it realy isn't, and the scoutmaster is not in charge of everything. Focus on "your job" and let the committee chair do his. BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Scouting again Small councils are able to continue to exist without merging into larger adjacent councils for one reason and one reason only. There are financial able to stay independent. To suggest that a council board would allow a council in debt to linger in debt for the personal benefit of an SE is unreasonable, impractical, and imaginary.

The fact that some tropp leaders do not use the patrol method or do not use it to its fll potential has to do with leader selection not Wood Badghe. There is nothing in Wood Badge that undermines or negates ANY Method of Scouting. What Kudu does not realize is that the patrol method is an element of scouting that needs to be taught more to adults then to youth. For Youth the Patrol method is natural. If he looked, Kudu would see kids of scout age who are not in scouting gathering in small groupds under their own leadership. What Baden-Powel did that was so unique was that rather than try and change that natural social element in youth he wanted to change the adults to use the tendencies of youth to teach values and skills that would allow them to grow ito independence. Most sdults come to the BSA with a very poor understanding of good leadership. They come after years of experience with two notoriously bad sets of leaders, parents and employers. It only takes about three minutes to explain what the Patrol Method is. It takes most the day to get adults to understand that small groups lead by scouts is not only Okay but THE ONLY WAY to deliver a quality scouting program. You can't teach them that by telling them to camp X-number of feet away. You teach them that leaders do not have to be tyrants, We teach them to relx, listen, ask questions, allow youth to make decisions and coach them on how to make good ones. To suggest that there is ANYTHING in Wood Badge that works against the Patrol Method is simple a matter of Kudu having more attitude than aptitude about the contents and training methods of the BSA. Some leaders get the Patrol Method idea and some refuse to accept it. The BSA teaches it but not everyone pays attention. Kudu's experience with BSA training is the same as his experience with the Scouting of B-P's days, he has only read about them, he wasn't there. He never lived the scouting of B-Ps day and he has never learned how to lead BSA training or taught the BSA training. His attitude exceeeds his aptitude. I have known lots of scouters who use the patrol method probabley to a greater extent than Kudu himself. And Kudu and I have both met many thet haven't a clue what the patrol Method is really about. 6 years ago when I first brought up Patrol activities without adults present on this forum most posters at that time (many who are still active on the forum, had never heard of such a thing before. The fact that it had been in the handbook for decades was a shock to them. So it's not that the BSA didn't tell them about it. I would bet that now that we are 6 years further down the road, most of them have still yet to get to the point where they have patrols doing independent activities. Even though they have known for 6 years that that is the goal of the patrol Method. So it's not the BSA, it's the leaders. Some get it, some don't. Some have developed the leadership skills to lead a troop rather than run a troop, and some have not. Many of the Boy Scout related problems posted on this forum, and other similar scouting forums, all come down to the Patrol Method not being used. You would think Kudu would be happy to hear that the BSA is still a teacher and proponent of the foundations of Scouting that B-P designed, but he is not. He would rather complain than learn the truth.

Michael In answer to your two questions: 1.A youth can be whatever he wants, The BSA can only control whether or not he can be a member of scouting. 2.Yes the Eagle award can be revoked by the BSA. It does happened every so often. The BSA does not publicize the event as it is a personal matter between the individual and the BSA. When it does get publicized it is only becasue the individual chooses to make it public.

With youth the final dividing line is their 18th Birthday. 21st in Venturing.

Kudu, As my Uncle Clyde used to say..."Son, I don't know what drugs you are taking but your either taking too much or not enough. "But any mention of Baden-Powell's Patrol System standard sends holders of the Wood Badge into a frenzy of rage." That's just nuts! Here is where I think trained Scout leaders get frenzied around you. They can teach scouts how to lead a patrol or a troop at ANY distance, where as you need at least 300 hundred feet. This entire distance from campsite thing amuses me because you make the campsite seem so darn important. I thought the campsite was where you ate and slept. When I'm sleeping I really don't care if there is a tent 10 ft from me or 500 ft. When I cook in my yard and my neighbor is just 150 feet away cooking I have no trouble being totally independent of him , why would a patrol be different? I am not sure that you even have a clear understanding of what the patrol method is. So let's compare. I'll even go first. The patrol Method is an unique element of scouting where groups of 8 to 10 boys under the leadership of a youth member of the group, act as an independent team in everything they do. When patrols gather they form a troop also under a youth leader whose job is to coordinate the efforts of the patrols for the benefit of all through the decisions of a council of patrol leaders. Granted it is a simplified version but I thought that would be the best place to start. Now you tell me your understanding of the Patrol method and please include why it is distance related? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

There is nothing unique about a district meeting. Chairing a district meeting requires the same skills and components of chairing any meeting. Know what you need to get accomplished and have an agenda that will guide you to the goals. Make sure that the people who need to be there are coming or are sending someone to represent them. If there are itens requireing a vote make sure that the information needed to make a clear decision will be on hand. Start on time, stick to the agenda. District Meetings are where big decisions are made, details are done in subcommittee, don't get bogged down in details. Make sure everyone knows what the next step is for any decision and who is responsible for it. Finish on time.

You can contact the BSA supply division at 1-800-323-0736

Bob White writes: The BSA has never made of secret of what those values were. Merlyn Responds Sure they do, Bob. Bob White writes that there values are well know and publicly Published (The Scout Oath and Law) so how can they be a secret. I ask Merlyn to find something to prove that the BSA has instructed anyone to keep these values a secret and Merlyn's response is... " I never claimed the BSA tells anyone to keep that information a secret." So merlyn thinks the values are kept a scret but no one told anyone to keep them a secret? So I guess the next question Merlyn is if even people not in the BSA know what the values of Scouting are then who is keepeing them secret and fropm whom are ther keeping them, because an awful lot of people seem to be in the know on this so whoever is in charge of the "secret keeping" sure isn't doing to good. So what secret is being kept Merlyn, and if you know them then how are they secrets? In fact is there were secrets being kept I would think that you would have had to say that "The BSA keeps secrets and I don't know what they are?" So what exactly is secret about the Values of the Oath and Law Merlyn?

WOW Merlyn...what a horrible example of the BSA keeping things secret. All you proved was that an untrained scouter has been around the program toolong and doesn't know an Ash from a hole in the ground. You didn't prove the BSA kept secrets all you proved was that some schmuck you tallked to was clueless. Afer all YOU know that the BSA would not accept an avowed athiest as a member and you aren't even in the BSA. You even know where to find the passages to prove it. So if you aren't a member and you know where the documentation is then you really have no grounds to say it's kept secret. Here's a challenge for you. You and I you know places where the membership conditions are readily available for anyone to see. So tell us anyplace where the BSA tells ANYONE to keep that information a secret. I'll wait here. Hurry back, but do not come empty handed this time.

There is really no avenue for that. Neither the council no the BSA ask for or seek testimony or opinions contrary to the appeal request. They tend to be emotional and generated by personal conflict and extremely biased. The Council Advancement committee is asked to look at the medical facts that must be presented with a doctor's explanation of the condition and why it interferes with the completion of the advancement. No other testestomy is involved. It is highly doubtful that your opinion will be considered in any way unless you are the youth's physician or you sit on the council advancement committ that reviews these applications. A youths advancement is really not anyone else's business as it only effects the youth this is especially true in this instance. As stated before medical extensions are very difficult to get.

Why do you continue to say they are not all in one place after you have been given the publications name and catalog #?