Bob White

Boy Scouting units are not "Boy Run". That is a misapplied term. Troop and Patrols "activities" are BOY LEAD. There is a difference between a unit being run by youth and the unit's activities being lead by youth. Knowing the role and responsibilities of the JASM as well as the requirements for becoming JASM is in nearly every Boy Scout Troop resource there really is no good reason for the Scoutmaster to not know them.

This is a problem we will never be rid of. We have over 1.2 million adult volunteers and you will always have some who are not trained or not trainable. There is just no getting away from it on a national basis. Locally however it can be controlled to a large extent by selecting quality people for leadership positions in the unit and the council. Some communities are very good at this, others are not.

No one has said that it is not an Eagle Scout Service Project. The fact is that it is not a BSA activity and as such is not subject to the rules or protections of the BSA program. A vendor who produces BSA retail items is only required to meet the trademark regulations of the BSA. The products do not get sent to various divisions to be checked. Anyone who has purchased a BSA flint and steel kit will know that functaionality and the salability are not related when it comes to licensing or marketing BSA products. I hope you do not seriously expect that the BSA National Supply Division would be versed in the BSA advancement regulations or in any the policies and procedures of any other BSA division? It is no different then the fact that there are resale products that advertisers place in scouting magazine that are not BSA approved products and cannot be sold by scouts in uniform or using the BSA nasmes or images. But they are in a BSA Publication, just as the Banner you saw was in a BSA shop. Do not confuse resale items with BSA policies. The project is an Eagle Scout Project, it certainly is not a Tenderfoot Project, but it is also not an official Scout activity, nor does it have the benefits or protections of one, nor is it subject to all the policies of the BSA.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Consider this...Boyce and Hearst were both publishers, and the Baden-Powell's "Scouting for Boys" was the runaway best-seller in all of Europe. If you were a publisher in the US wouldn't you be looking for the rights to print it here? There were dozens of regional youth programs across the country based on woods crafts or indian lore or the like. By consolidating them into a single organization it would give them and even larger consumer base to sell their version of the book to. Each tried to start a single organization. Hearst had enemies in congress and Boyce did not. Boyce was able to get Congress to recognize his BSA rather than Hearst's version. Boyce had B-pPs support, Hearst did not. Neither was concerned with the philanthropic betterment of the lives or paperboys. It was simply a business decision for them. They were publishers, it was a popular book, and we were a country filled with youth. If you are looking for the people who were the spiritual heart of the fledgling BSA that would be folks like B-P, Seton, and Beard.

If you are looking to add to your scout collectibles you may want to hold on to your red jack-shirt. It would make sense that if they BSA is looking to have a more low impact uniform by removing red that they will change the official jack-shirt and windbreaker also.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

John in KC asks "Why is the Committee involved in the first place? This is a program issue, and the SM should have his feet held to the fire for discipline management. He should be setting consequences which matter. Why isn't the PLC involved? This is a good chance for them to learn that consequences of youth actions touch all of them... and they might be tougher on a peer than the adults are?" Because this is not a program issue! This is a membership and behavioral issue and the BSA policies and procedures specifically make this the responsibility of the adult leadership, including the committee and parents. However nothing requires the majority vote of the committee on such a matter.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Four of the moderators as well as the site owner know my real name and that seems to be sufficient with them, more importantly using handles, as you yourself do, is not contrary to any rule on this forum. I am not required to use my own name just to suit your curiosity or that of others, nor am I tempted to. Enjoy your vist with the members of the relationship division, I've met the director of the division and he seems to be a fine gentleman, but I hope you realize that they have no relationship to advancement or risk management which are the core of this particular issue.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"The COR wants the boys out because of potential damage to the CO's reputation and long-term health of the CO's scouting program, but has been advised that while she has the authority to remove an adult, that to remove a boy there really should be a majority vote of the committee." No such requirement exists in the BSA.

update Expect the BSA to announce in the very near future that the cooking mb will be an Eagle required badge again.

How exactly does one measure a "well rounded expereience"? The requirement is to actively serve in any of the stated positions for a specified minimum time. The BSA does not require that the the scout hold different positions. Although the odds are that he will, it is important to remember the he is not required to. It would be in the best interest of the scout to focus on what the requirement IS, rather than what some individuals would prefer it to be.

How exactly does one measure a "well rounded expereience"? The requirement is to actively serve in any of the stated positions for a specified minimum time. The BSA does not require that the the scout hold different positions. Although the odds are that he will, it is important to remember the he is not required to. It would be in the best interest of the scout to focus on what the requirement IS, rather than what some individuals would prefer it to be.

the 2007-2008 Roundtable helps have been available on line through the BSA for quite awhile, the better part of a year now. After all they expire next month. As Ed points out you can get the 2008-2009 as well as the 2009-2010 Roundtable Helps as well. These too have been on-line at the BSA site for quite a while. The BSA continues to make make and more materials available on the official BSA websites, and more on-line resources are in the process of being available each month. Rather than watch council websites youy will find new documents faster by keeping an eye on the national site as that is where they will first appear. Not all council webites will include the same information or the links at the same speed.

Not sure what your point is John in KC unless of cources "in KC " is your real name. The BSA has already spelled these things out, you just choose to ignore them. As you long as you realize it is a personal choice and unsupported by the resources of the BSA. I also asked about councils extending additional liabilty protection to Eagle Projects. That cannot be done, and if it is has not actual effect. Liability protection only covers registered adult scouters and COs during regular scouting functions. Since A)the project is not a project for scouting but for the benefactor unless the scouter was there as part of a troop or District activity there would be coverage, and B)if the scouter was there as a part of a troop activity he or she would not require an addidional policiy since the BSA policy would already be in effect as a secondary protection AFTER the liability coverage of the benefiting organization was used up. But that is just according to the fellows at the BSA who are in charge of that kind of thing.

What exactly does it take in the unit you serve for a scout to be sent home? Stealing and the inproper use of fuels evidently isn't enough. While you are free to give the committee your opinion, it is the committees responsibilitiy to determine what to do with the scouts. You can either accept their decision or choose to leave the unit and possibly serve another unit. But along with investigating the scouts behavior it would seem appropriate for the committee to question the behavior of the troop leadership at these activities as well. When a scout's behavior interferes with the deliver of the program or endangers his safety or the safety of others he should be returned to the supervision of his parents immediately.

Yes, it is possible to form new councils. But it sounds like your question is not based on the current financial strength your council but on the service and program offered in your scouting community. Since those services are largely provided by volunteers perhaps your real solution should be to select better people as scouters in your area? A new council would only put more professionals in your area, it will not improve the quality of your local volunteers in any way. So a new coucil would have no effect on your situation. Perhaps instead of using the newly found millions of dollars to start another council, your benefactor put it to use to fund additional training resources in your community and to entice all the leaders there to attend. That could actually resolve your issuse more effectively.

The resources they gave were the same ones I used, the Advancement Committee Policies and Proceudres manual along with the uniform regulations that appear in the Insignia Guide. There is nothing mystical about the Eagle service project. It is no different than any other activity done outside of scouting that can can be applied to a youth's advancement in the BSA. No amount of position papers can make an adult apply reason and logic to a situation when they refuse to accept clear and confirmed evidence. It took only a few minutes for a room of scouters to realize they had a misconception based on habit rather than facts. You have the same opportunity they had. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Update I had the opportunity last week to directly talk with members of the BSA National Council's Advancement Committee and the professionals of the BSA National Office's Health and Safety, and Risk Management departments about the term "outside the sphere of scouting", as well as questions regarding whether the Eagle candidate's community service is a scout activity, and whether the uniform can be worn when securing funds or materials for a project. I was correct in the information I have shared on these topics. Outside the sphere of scouting means that the activity is not a scouting activity sponsored by any level of the BSA. Nor are the parties involved proteced by BSA accident or libility protection, UNLESS they are there as part of a BSA unit activity, and then only the registered members there are protected. That does not extend to the candidate who is there as a volunteer for the benefiting organization, and would be protected by the benefiting organizations liabilty coverage as would all others at the event. The activity can be used toward the candidates advancement just as his participation in a school activity can be applied toward his advancement without the event being a scouting activity. A scout cannot wear a BSA uniform when seeking donations for another organization, and since the Eagle project must be for an organization outside of scouting the candidate should not use the image or name of scouting when seeking donations.

I saw the new uniform in person last week. It is not that different from the current one, in fact many folks did not even notice it being worn at first. Overall it looks fine. The slot on the sleeve pocket for an i-pod's ear bud was removed from the finished design. There is a button on the back side of the right shirt pocket flap for holding temporary pathes with button loops. The other pockets use a velcro closure. The shirt buttons being the same color as the shirt give it a very clean look. The fabric is very stain resistant and the shirt seemd very wrinkle resistant looking just as nice at the end of the day as it did at the beginning. The shades of tan and green used in the shirt, convertable pants and socks are nice, and the lack of red barely noticeable. There is enough room on the sleeve for the council strip, anniversary bar, and unit numerals to easily fit. Sewing the por patch on the sleeve pocket might be challenging at first. The shirt comes with the BSA strip and American flag permanently attached. Over all it is a very nice looking uiform.

Telling the scout upon the unanimous approval of an eagle board of review that he has passed the board of review is fine and correct. telling him that he is an Eagle Scout is inappropriate and incorrect. Unlike all other Boy Scout ranks that are earned upon the passing of the bor, the Eagle bor is the NEXT TO THE LAST STEP, and does not guarantee the scout that he will receive the rank. There is no reason that anyone should be uncomfortable telling the scout the truth. Once the BSA reviews and approves the application they will record the advancementg as of the bor date. THEN the advacnementg is earned and not until that time. Yes, not all Eagle applications are pproved. No, it is not frequent and when you consider that there are over 5000 Eagle candidates that do get the rank that you don't know, the chances that you will know one of the scouts who are not approved is pretty slim. Why would you be uncomfortable telling a scout that they are "one step closer to being an Eagle, once the national office approves your application it will be complete". Would you really rather tell the scout that he is an eagle, only to go back later and tell him he isn't? Tell the truth and you cannot go wrong.

Gern do not blow this out of proportion or fein sorrow. You broke no laws, you simply are not doing the job that you were approved to do. As you said yourself, you "took" over the troop. You were not selected to serve in the role you chose to fill. You think that taking over someone elses job is an improvement when instead you simply pushed the CO further away, helping to create the situiation that you now have. This isn't your unit, the BSA is very clear that the scouting program is a youth outreach of the charter organization. It doesn't matter if this was the first troop ever chartered in the BSA, once the charter organization no longer wants to wion the unit, its time to take one of two actions. The CO either changes oit mind or lets the troop fold, it is their unit to do as they wish. It is just like with a CO that chooses leadership poorly. The parents have no say in the matter, other than choosing to stay or leave, because they have no authority to choose the leaders. Neither does the Scoutmaster have the authority to take over the job of the Commmittee, or the Committee to take over the responsibilities of the CO.

Also if you have more than one patrol on a trip it is no longer a patrol activity. When patrols gather it is a troop. And troop outings (even if the patrols are doing different things in different sites) requires two deep adult leadership. For it to be a "Patrol Activity with no adults present" it can only be ONE patrol from the troop on the outing. Do not confuse a troop activity with patrols being in separate camp sites under their own leadership, with a Patrol Activity where they go totally without adult supervision. These are two different types of activities.

Reality is what you make it in Scouting. You can choose to create a healthy relationship and make it work or choose not to support the unit owned by an organization that has no ontention of supporting you. There are lots of good charter organizations that would love to see their scouting program grow work with the parents to influence your current CO or move the scouts to somewhere where they are wanted. I can tell you that in the units I have served they all had outstanding support from their CO. They included a Public School PTA as a scout (sorry Merlyn),a radio station as an Explorer, A presbyterian Church as an ASM, another Presbyterian Church as a SM, A Lutheran Church as an ASM, another public school PTA as a Cubmaster, a Protestant Church as an ASM, and a private Yacht Club as a Mate on a Ship. If there weren't a lot of good COs out there it would seem very coincidental that I was never in a unit with a bad one. But then in each unit we worked at maintaining and nurturing that relationship. Not every unit has a good CO, but the ones that have a bad one all share something in common...they all CHOSE to stay there. No one made them do it.

When B-P began scouting in the arl;ly 1900's juvenile crime was a huge problem in London. Kids ran in gangs under youth leadership . When I was a scout aged youth in the 60s I had about 8 or 9 close friends that ran around together. There was no election but everybody looked up to John and he was our leader. ANY of this sound FAMILIAR Kudu? Kids will naturally form friendships in groups of about 6 to 10, rather than try to work against this natural social grouping B-P incorporated it. It is called the Patrol Method. The BSA still teachesit and still teaches adults how to develop the leadership skills needed to implement it. The patrol method works at ANY distance. Kudu When Baden-Powell wrote his handbook for boys, how many Troops were there in the UK? When B-P had his first campout on Brownsea, how many other troops shared that island? When B-P started the Scouting movement, how many different cultures was it written for?

Venture patrols operate no differently from an Experienced patrol they simply work at higher adventure and skill levels.

This discussion is on small councils, not about EVERY decision that ANY council has EVER made. In the context of the subject of this thread your suggestion is without foundation or reason.