Bob White

"So what does "was the amount of time sufficient for the scout to demonstrate leadership skills" mean? How do you determine if the requirement is met? How do you help a young man to plan a project fulfilling that goal?" Well Vol_ that depends. If your goal is to follow the BSA advancement policies and procedures then YOU don't decide. You leave that to the board of review to decide. Prior to the start of the project your job is to determine if the project requires the scout to give leadership to others and if it has met the pre-project requirements as listed in the Project Workbook, and nothing more. As scout can use leadership skills in 10 hours just as easily as in 100. The BSA puts no project size or time limit on a project and neither should the council/district advancement committee members. I am not asking for or expecting an apology from you, as I was never an Eagle candidate that you may have turned down for reasons other than the requirements of the BSA. I am merely pointing out that the problem is not in the rules of the BSa but in the people who do not know or do not follow the rules of the BSA and instead make up their own rules.

Whose merit badges are these, and whose advancement is this this? Evidendently there are scout leaders who see it as theirs rather than as the scouts'. Working on advancement at summer camp is a great opportunity for some scouts but it certainly should not be forced on them. There are plenty of other things to do a camp besides merit badges. If one follows the BSA standards for sending scouts home, then not attending merit badge classes in itself does not meet any of the BSA standards for such an action.

I have sent scouts home twice in 32 years. Once for bringing marijuana, and once for threatening to hurt an adult leader.

"and CO's don't really want the concerns of having scouts and scouters to deal with." If that were true then they would not have chosen to use the scouting program as a part of their youth service to the community. If they are having problems with THEIR scouts and THEIR leaders then they have selected their leaders badly. Why would they choose and retain people they have problems with?

1st, it is not a scout leaders role to "enforce" the Oath and Law. Our role is to teach it and be examples of it. 2nd, Whether the girl or her family chose to pursue charges is not relevevant to your responsibility to report suspicion of abuse as per the policies and procedures of the BSA Youth Protection program. Nor is it your job to determine if sufficient evidence exists as suggested by a previous poster. Your responsibility is to report if you have a suspicion that abuse took place. Period! It is the responsibility of others to determine if laws were broken and to determine what evidence exists...not you. If you suspect abuse that you are required to report it. It's just that simply. 3rd, If you do not suspect that abuse took place then you did all that was within your authority by removing the scout from the unit roster. If you had concerns regarding the scout's behavior and the safety of others then you should have talked to the CR or IH at the charter organization for the scout troop. If you did then you have done all you can. If you didn't then you need to deal with the choice you made.

Just so others are clear and not mislead as to the workings of BSA membership...your recommendation is that he is removed from membership, and unless he rejoins this unit or another unit is not a BSA member. The time he spends outside of membership does not count toward tenure, unlike time spent as a member of a unit but suspended from participation as a condition of a disciplinary action would be.

You assume way too much GW. I never said it was my opinion, and I never said that it did not come from Texas. All I said was that it made sense that they would do this.

GW are you saying that you couldn't recognize a scout without red shoulder tabs and red troop numbers? I think most units use unique hats, neckerchiefs, shirts etc to be able to spot THEIR scouts. These options still exist with the new unform. The BSA is simply doing what they can with the portions they control to tone things down a little.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

There is no such thing as "suspended membership" in the unit. They are either on the roster for the unit or they are off. You can suspend their participation but not their membership. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Yeah Neil a lot of scouting actually is black and white. Not all of it but certainly a lot of it. There is a right way and a wrong to do things in any activity. Sure you can try and make things grey rather than have to actually make a committment to follow the program, but not everyone has that much difficulty reading a paragraph or two and understanding what it says, and then having the ability to choose to follow the instructions. The right way to select junior leaders is to elect the SPL and the patrol leaders and let them choose the rest. It says so in the BSA Scout Leader training, the junior leader training, all the handbooks, and it always has. To do it any other way is wrong, it is not the scouting program. Wearing the uniform and doing what you want to do is not scouting. Scouting has specific methods, practices, policies and structures. And when you do not follow them you are not actually Scouting, you are just dressing up like a Boy Scout. To say that the JASM can no longer tent with other scouts is wrong. There is nothing in the BSA rules that says that, there is nothing in the BSA methods that recommend it, there is no reason to say that the rule exists or to manufacturer it. Whether the SM has chosen to create this uneeded and unwarranted rule, or whether he erroneously belives it to be true...he is wrong. He is not bad...he is just wrong, and it every reference material on the topic in the BSA proves it. You can choose to mislead Michael by making excuses for the Scoutmaster or you can answer his question using the BSA handbooks and tell him the truth. I think the right thing to do for the scout is to tell him the truth. It is not our obligation to make his Scoutmaster look right, it is our obligation to give Michael the facts. It is the Scoutmaster's responsibility to know the program better.

If you follow the BSA program...the court of honor is the responsibility of the Troop Committee. That is not to say that the committee cannot enlist the resources of the troop for the program, such as scouts or scoutleaders. But the responsibility for the coh remains with the committee (If your goal is to follow the BSA program).

I would never say to a scout "that's it you are going home". I would make sure that scouts knew from day one what was acceptable behavior and what was not (Scout Oath and Law) and make clear that if they do not act as scouts then they do not participate in scout activitities. I don't need to tell a scout he is going home. The parents can tell them when they get there to pick him up. from the Scoutmaster Handbook: "A boy who continually disrupts meetings or whose actions endanger himself or others during Scouting activities should be sent home." Seems pretty clear doesn't it.

Because GW the BSA has stated that they are removing the red from the uniform to tone it down. The jacket is likley to change based on what the new uniform IS, not on what the past uniforms USED TO BE.

A perfect example! Where are you getting the term "substantial enough"??? Nowhere does the BSA ask that the project be "substantial". The measuring stick your were SUPPOSED to use was "was the amount of time sufficient for the scout to demonstrate leadership skills". It is not about the size or complexity of the project but about the skills used by the the scout it leading it to completion. Even your "substantial enough" rating is incorrect by BSA standards and regulations. Yes, the problem is volunteers imposing personal standards that do not exist in the BSA. The answer is not to throw out rules but to follow the BSA rules ONLY and stop imposing personal ones. Show us one BSA rule that has been adhered to too strictly that has denied a scout advancement even though the scout copmpleted the requirements. Everything that has been mentioned so far are not requirements or standards of the BSA, but are the creations of people at the unit and district level who are supposed to know better and to follow the rules of the BSA but do not.

Neil, What I said was that the Scoutmaster gave him incorrect information. That is a fact. It is an easily proven and undeniable fact. It is also one that should not have happened if any one of several readily available resources had been looked at. As far as the criticizing the scoutmaster I think if you read Michael's posts you will find where he has great respect for the scoutmaster. If you biothered to read my posts again you would see I agreed that he was probably a fine person. But he is wrong. Sometimes people are wrong, and in this case the Scoutmaster is wrong. I do not see how you can agree that the BSA program says one thing and the scoutmaster says another and not simply be able to say that one is right and one is wrong, and in this case the SM is wrong. Just as with the committee who, according to Michael, chooses all the junior leader positions. That is not how the program is designed or supported. They are fine people I'm sure...but they are wrong. Michael came here looking for accurate information. How can you show him that what the BSA says is very different from what his adult leaders are doing and not see that they are doing it incorrectly either purposely through choice or accidentally through lack of knowledge. But either way they are still ...wrong. Not bad people...just wrong.

What the Insignia Guide actually says is "centered horizontally over the left pocket and vertically between the top of the pocket and the shoulder seam." how far that will be in inches from the top of the pocket depends entirely on the size of the shirt you wear. In any case the proper proportionate location is halfway, the exact distance is not relevant.

Which rules would that be??? None of the elements you mention are rules of the BSA. The 100 hours you used is bogus and improper, and a violation of BSA advancement regulations. Why did you do that? You misused them. Where did the BSA teach you that such a rule existed?

You may agree with whomever you wish. That does not alter the fact that the BSA policies and procedures make adult leaders specifically responsible for yourth behavior not the PLC and, the guide to Safe Scouting clearly states that the Committee determines what to do with scouts with repeatitively poor behavior and not the Scoutmaster or assistant Scoutmasters. Regardless of whom you agree with the unit is obligated to follow the BSA instructions on this matter.

And there in is the problem Michael, we can only tell you how it is supposed to be. If your Scoutmaster and the other adult leaders are not going to follow the program, then no matter how much you know of scouting the right thing will not get done in the your troop. It all begins with trained and knowledgable leaders. I am glad you like your scoutmaster, I am sure he is a fine man, now if he only cared about knowing and following the program then you would have far fewer problems.

BSA Supply has temporarily stopped issuing merit badges. This kind of action often comes when items go through design changes. It could be that new colors wil be used to match the fabric color of the new uniform.

No one has suggested the fabric would change only the color. Since the uniform is now predominantly green and tan it would be logical that the jackets would change to one of those colors as well.

Number of required badges will either stay the same, be increased by 1 or reduced by 1, but it does not seem that it will be more or less than that according to the suggested plan.

But is there anything there that suggests they do not tent with other youth? What does the youth's Senior Patrol Leader Handbook say? (page 110) " A Scout at least 16 years of age who has shown outstanding leadershipp in skills may be appointed by the senior patrol leader, with the advice and consent of the Scoutmaster. These young men (a troop may have more than one junior assistant Scoutmaster) follow the guidance of the Scoutmaster in providing support and supervision to the other boy leaders in the troop. Upon his 18th birthday, a junior assistant Scoutmaster will be eligible to be an assistant Scoutmaster. That is the same thing that appears in the Scoutmaster Handbook as well on page 15. So there is no reason for your scoutmaster to not know this information. And as a Scout it is available to you as well in the SPL Handbook. Your Scoutmaster should have known to refer you there. Notice that it is not the SCoputmaster's role to select you but to guide the SPL's decision in who is selected. Not everyone who turns 16 is supposed to be made a JASM.

But did you know that Boyce also stopped his $1000 a month financial support of the BSA after a falling out with West just a few years after the program began, and he started a new program called Lone Scouts which later was absorbed into the BSA? That Boyce saw much good in the scouting movement for the benefit of Youth is not in question. But the meeting in the fog is more legend than fact and it is no coincidence that the nations top two publishers "found" the scouting program (which at the time was growing all over Eurpope thankis to the sales of B-P's book) at the same time, and each fought to have their version recognized as the official one. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

What does it say of JASM in your Boy Scout Handbook Michael?