Bob White

Do I think you are sharing enough details to be able to say that the region is at fault? No. Do I think the BSA is in anyway responsible for reimbursement? No. Do I think you have options as suggested by FScouter? Absolutely. If you gave it 30 days and you did not get a response and yet you still had 60 days before the trip I wwould have to wonder why you did not re-submit?

I understand your Hypothetical, please realize that hypothetical in this case means "imagined". I can only tell you what my real experience is. I cannot explain why your imagined application did not come back and I certainly will not suggest that your regional office is in someway financially responsible for something that you are pretending they did not on time.

I cannot speak to a specific instance as it is very rare that the paperwork, if done properly at the unit, is not approved and returned within 30 days. That experience includes many, many national tour permits filed with both the Central and the Northeast Reagions. The only specific time I know of personally when the paperwork was not back in time resulted from the unit not filing the paperwork within the required 30 day time period.

gwd-scouter, my guess is that you trust your husband implicitly, am I right? There are two problems with that, and it seems many units realize them. First, that level of trust it is not a good thing when it comes to Youth Protection. Adults leaders should trust another adult to the point that they still make sure that the all rules are followed. Second, when it comes to a question of whether or not a leader did the right thing it is difficult if not impossible to get an objective point of view from a spouse. You are going to want to support your husband first, and what the scouts and families need is someone who is going to put the safety rules first. Spouses on outings in the many peoples minds is just 1 person and a second (objective) adult is needed. Can a maried couple meet the requirements? Yes. Would I ever do that as a leader, support it as a leader in the unit I serve, or recommend it to anyone else? No!

Again, are you removing them from a position or revoking membership? If simply removing them from a position it would depend on who they work for. Roundtable staff works for the Roundtable commissioner, The roundtable commissioner works fopr the District Commissioner, The District Commissioner works for the Council Commissioner. Unit Commissioners and Assistant District Commissioners work for the District Commissioner. A District sub-committee member works for the committee chair, the committee chair works for the District Chairperson and the District Chair works for the District Body. Removal of a district member at large would be by the District Body as well. A CR wopuld have to be replaced by the charter organization's IH. Revoking of membership would be by the Council's Scout executive. The Key Three would not be needed to remove anyone from their position and would have no authority to revoke membership. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

It is not recommended and many Many COs do not allow it. There simply is not a healthy enough level of checks and balances. As far as ASM915's comments they are incorrect (sorry). Two deep leadership accepts a registered adult and a parent of a scout who is present on the activity one of whom is over 21. Since the Scoutmaster is registered and the wife is a parent of a scout (if he is present) then they technically have met the requirements. In a coed Venturing Crew or Ship on an overnight activity you would need a male and a female registered leader.

something to consider. Each region covers an approximately 15 state area. Each state has on average 6 councils. Each council has approx 140 Boy Scout Troops. That is about 2100 troops in each region. What time of year do you think most units go on trips that require National tour permits? It's mid June through mid August. Most National tour permits arrive at the region offices in a 6 week period of the year. That is a lot of paperpushing in a very short period of time. There is an old Indian proverb about not judging a person until you have walked in his moccasins. I think it is easy to misjudge what the workload is in a office where you have no idea what all they do. I have never had an application take more than three weeks. I am not sayiong it does not happen, I just think it is a rare instance. As far as the suggestion to " Take the boys, have a great time, let the paperwork worries be someone elses problem" All I can say is that is REALLY, REALLY, REALLY bad advice when it comes to national tour permits.!

Twocubdad I will try to address your three points. First, I do not see the need for this to be in scoutmaster basic training, but it certainly is appropriate to supplemenatry training at Roundtables, University of Scouting, Commissioner Colleges, Philmont, etc. But I have to admit that I do not understand why any leader would consider talking to another organization regarding their insurance or would expect that BSA liability protection would extend to people or places not in the BSA?? I was a Scoutmaster long before I ever saw an Advancemnet policies and procedures manual and it never occurred to me to think that; A) a boy doing a project for someone else makes it a Scouting sponsored activity, or B) I had any authority to say that my BSA liability protection extended to cover anyone that was anywhere a scout was. I'm sorry but I am not that particularly bright and even I understood that if I am injured someone else's property that it is their liability policy in effect not someone elses. Point two. Where in ANY BSA resource does it say that ANY scout leader is to be present at an Eagle Scout's project for the purpose of observing and evaluating??? I have no idea where you were mislead on this point, but you either were taught or imagined a responsibility that does not exist and never has. You do not confirm leadership at a project. That is the role of the Eagle board of review, and they determine it by the project report and the interview process of the board. No leader or board member is instructed, required, or suggested to be present. Point three. You assume that other agencies know as little of their liability protection as you do, and I think that is a huge assumption on your part. If a benefitting organization asks the scout about liability his best response is "you need to ask your insurance provider, I am only leading the project for you". If they ask the unit the proper response would be "This is not a BSA activity, the young man is doing the project for your organization not for the BSA or this unit". If the scout was not leading the project SOMEBODY ELSE would be and the benefiting organization would still be the property owner and responsible for liability. This is why the scout works WITH the organization to determine a project and to have the plan approved by them. I have worked with dozens of Eagle candiates as their Scoutmaster or Eagle Mentor. I have NEVER had a single benefiting organization ask the scout or me about insurance. I really believe that your concern, and your projection that this is an issue that will cause groups to withdraw, is totally unwarranted. You are worried about something that has yet to actually happen. Remember this is not a change in policy, this has existed for many many years. No Eagle project has had the liability or accident insurance that you thought it had and yet it has never been an issue. The only thing changing here is your level of knowledge, not BSA insurance or protection. I will return to the example of a scout playing on a high school sports team and applying that activity to a merit badge advancement. Did you really think for one minute that that teamm game the scout was in was a Scouting Activity merely because the player was a Boy Scout? Diod you think that everyone in the game was protected by BSA accident insurance and that the coaches and shools were protected by BSA Liability Protection simply because the the player was a scout using his participation on the team toward a BSA advancement??? The Eagle project is no different. The youth who is leading the activity also happens to be a scout and is using the activity toward his advancement. That does not make it a Scouting activity nor does it provide accident insurance for anyone on the project or liability for adults. if a unit goes to a help at a service project that happens to be lead by a boy applying the work to his advancement, then the unit is on a scouting activity and the unit mebers have accident insurance and the registered adults have liability protection should a scout be injured or should property be damaged by a scout in the unit. The project is not a scout activity but a unit there as a unit activity is a scout activity unto itself. BSA liability covers ADULT REGISTERED members of the BSA and the chartering organizations during regular Scouting Activities. The Project itself is not a Scouting activity it is an activity of the benefiting organization that happens to have a boy leading it that is a scout. It is "outside the sphere of scouting". I hope this helps you to understand the situation better. BW

No one asked me or any other person present to not share this information. It was offered freely and without conditions You are just trying to create a conflict where none exists, simply because you enjoy creating conflict. I believe that is the behavior that OGE may be questioning us about. As far as others concern over censorship I will offer that as a private forum, which this clearly is, the owner has a right of editorial control. Just as we each have a right to control the language and behavior used by anyone who comes into our own homes, so does the owner of this site and his selected moderators. It is not censorship since posters should have no expectation of any freedoms on a private sight other than those offered them by the owner. Participation here, as I understand it, is not a right.

WARNING Sprint/Nextel DOES NOT WORK at PTC...not even from Cell Phone Hill according to the Sprint users in our group. My recommendation is you get one of those limeted uses disposable cell phones. If you dial your own sprint# and press the * button you can enter your code and retrieve your messages. No other cell phone customer had a problem last week except for the Sprint customers.

Tour permits are planning tools that show the unit administration and the local council (or regional office in the case of a National Tour permit), that the UNIT LEADER for the activity has taken certain specific details into consideration and properly prepared for them for the trip. There is no reason for a scout to complete a tour permit for an activity done outside the sphere of scouting. Are you surprided that the Roundtanble said that a tour permint was needed. Remember not that long ago most of the posters here would never knew that the BSA said the project was outside the sphere of scouting, never thought to question if it was a scout activity, and never thought about what elements keep it from being a scout activity. Commissioners need training too, but that is an entirely different topic for a new thread.

It is a Scoutmaster control issue in that the Scoutmaster is SUPPOSED to know and follow the Scouting program and your Scoutmaster ISN'T. Any registered Scout can work on merit badge. And the Counselor is responsible for giving the scout accurate reports for the scouts recoprds. Your troop leaders need training or at the very least attitude adjustments.

We found that static displays at Den Meeting and Pack Meetings worked well, along with e-mail, newsletters, and when needed phobe calls at the Den level. But we did not make announcements other than very, very, short ones directed at the youth to remind them of the fun that awaited them at an upcoming event. But we did not discuss details, those went into the other communications that were directed at the parents.

Another bit of news that came out just last week is that the BSA national office has gone through a complete retooling. There is no longer separate program divisions as in the past. Gone is the Boy Scout Division, the Cub Scout Division, etc.. We did not get all the new groups titles as they had not been finallized till late last week and many of the people involved were at Philmont and waiting to find out their new groupings. I do know that there is now an outdoor adventure group, and a Council Service group. Your local scout executives could probably give you more information, but it was so new last week that we just got some bare basics about it. The purpose of the change was to improve communications, change the focus of work to address specific areas of need, and to provide faster service to the front line. Johh of course can check on this when he gets to PTC in August. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

OAwww What you saw was that the cooking merit badge was soon to be returned to the Eagle required list. No date was offered. John in KC is correct this has not been officially announced yet by the BSA and is not currently an advancement requirement, which is why I made no such claim in my post. This was some advanced news shared by Joe Glasscock from the BSA National Office to scouters at the Philmont Training Center. Along with being the professional advisor for training, Joe also advises several of Boy Scout program related committees. Do I expect it to be in place by 09? Yes, that was the impression I got. The new Boy Scout Handbook is being completed (it is a new size by the way, so that it will fit in the large pocket of the new uniform pants.) and it should be in that new edition. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

The badge is complete when the merit badge counselor approves all the work. The scoutmaster is not required to sign it afterward. The card simple says that an adult leader signs the scout's portion of the card. The purose of this is for the scout to keep as a receipt as proof that the advancement was reported to an adult leader of the troop. Once the mb counselor has approved the merit badge NO ONE can rescind it. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

There are far better ways to keep parents informed then by taking up the cub scouts program time by making announcements to adults. As mentioned the Cubmaster is the MC, his or her role is to keep the meeting running on time and keep the energy level appropriate. Being MC does not mean doing all the talking or even most the talking, it means that they control the event. There are lots of opportunities in the Pack meeting plan for others to talk, bu please do not confuse that with making those dreaded announcements. Pack meetings are monthly parties for the kids and their families. do not spoil it with announcements.

No need for you to apologize, we are the ones who should not have used acronyms without first defining the term. I just thought you and others would want the correct wording. BW

Johnny manning a booth is not an Eagle Project. If the Booth Is for the police departments crime prevention campaign then the it is the police departments booth not johhny's and johny's job s to make sure that there are people scheduled and trained to man the booth. The rtoe f the Eagle candidate is to give leadersip to others not to do the work himself. Re-building a fire pit is routine maintanence and should not qualify as an Eagle service project. Even if it did that land, though public, has a government body that insures it and who would be responsible for it. The BSA has NEVER provided liability protection for anyone other than registered adults and no registered adults are required to ve present at an Eagle project. The accident insureance only covers BSA members at a regular unit activity and the Eagle project is not a unit activity. It is not planned by the unit, it doies not require any other member of the unit to be present. Other than reviewing the project plan to see that it meets the BSA advancement requirements and can be applied tothe rank, the unit has NO responsibility for the project at all! The project belongs to the benefiting organization and not the BSA at any level. Boy Scout advancment committee training usually takes place two times each summer at Philmont Training Center. I agree that you would find it very helpful. I hope your son is having a great time at NAYLE. I met his SPL and Scoutmaster last week, they are very impressive.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

PTC=Philmont Training Center

This is a good lesson for anyone planning any kind of activity. Know your costs ahead of time, know the steps that will be needed for the project from beginning to end...before you start. Having a good idea is fine, but you need a good plan to make it work. The plan needs to come before the acticvity begins.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Jet Why do you feel it is your responsibility to do anything at all on this? Certainly the benefiting organization has enough intelligent adults on its board to know that accidents that take place on their property falls under their insurance? Heck every home owner shoul know that. This is not news to anyone. If an organization needs work done then SOMEBODY has to do it. Whether it is an Eagle candidate or not, the owners of the property where the work is being done is going to have the exact same burden of liability. If you were giving these organizations the impression that the BSA was going to take responsibility for thier insurance obligations just because the person leading the eactivity happened to be a scout then your were wrong. That has never been the case. You do not need a lawyer, nor do you need to cancel anyones service project, what you need is additional BSA training.

To answer your question Northbell, the purpose of the Scoutmaster signing the card prior to the scout contacting the merit badge counselor is two fold. One reason is that it is the Scoutmaster's responsibility to see that the scout has the cotact information for a registered and approved counselor, has met any prerequirements as stated in the BSA merit badge requirememnts, and understands the need to have a buddy along at all times when meeting with the counselor. The second reason is so that the Scoutmaster knows what the scout is working on and can talk with him about his interests, his goals , and to offer coaching and mentoring to help the scout set goals to complete the badge. Now if you do not mind I have a question for you. In your post you mention merit badge work for First Class Scouts and above. Why are you excluding boys who are below the First Class Rank from merit badge opportunities???

I do not dismiss it, I question the fact that it is not in keeping with the BSA's position in the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures Manual. While both sources agree that a parent can counsel their own son, the BSA advancement policies make no restriction on it being a group instruction setting, and since the merit badge policies require that each scout be tested individually, and the internet FAQ makes no comment on the need to test the scout with a group (only instruct in a group) it seems to be a rather silly addition. It's comment on the reason being based on the adulty association method is questionable as well since the parent is an adult wheter he works with the scout individually or in a group setting.

The Scoutmaster Handbook, and The Senior Patrol Leader Handbook. Each says that the Senior Patrol Leader selects all troop positions of responsibility unless otherwise indicated. The ONLY positions that are otherwise indicated is the Assistant Senior Patrol Leader which says that the SPL appoints then with "the approval of the scoutmaster", and the junior assistant Scoutmaster position of which the handbooks say that the SPL selects the individual with the "advice and consent" of the scoutmaster. It makes no such conditions for the Den Chief or ANY OTHER position of responsibility.