Bob White

The SPL "voted" to send the scout home??? It is not the Youths role to punish other youth. This is the adult leaders responsibility. Your unit leaders need more training. How long should a patrol be able to go without adult supervision? About 6 years if you do it right.

Jet526 asked what some of the questions on the advancement pre-quiz were that was used at a PTC Boy Scout advancement conference, plus some that I have used at other training courses. All answers are found in the Boy Scout Handbook or in the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual. Many have since been discussed on this forum, they included. What is the first Rank in Boy Scouts? What knots are required for a scout earn First Class Rank? What knots are required for a scout to Earn eagle? What is the minimum days and nights of camping that a scot needs to earn First Class? How many total days and nights of camping does a scout need to progress from Scout to Eagle Scout? How long does a scout have to finish a partial merit badge? Can a parent be a merit badge counselor for their son? True of false...A unit may set an attendance or participation measurement to determine if a scout is "acticve" in the unit? True or false...A unit can set an attendance or participation measurement to determine Scout Spirt? Who sits on a board of review for the ranks or Tenderfoot through First Class? Except for merit badges who can sign a scout's advancement requirements? Can a scout sign his own handbook? How many elective merit badges must a scout complete to earn the Star Rank? Can a youth identify himself as a Boy Scout when seeking donations for an Eagle Project? For which merit badge can a scoutmaster automatically counsel because he is a Scoutmaster? Who is responsible for traiing unit leaders about the BSA advancement program? Who is responsible for the merit badge program at a local summer camp? How many personal references must a scout supply on his Eagle Application? How many references must the scout obtain for the Eagle board of review? (This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

That makes no sense! Who asked you to do this, Why did they ask you and what is your background for being asked? If you were an accountant you would know how to do the audit, If you were a trained commissioner you would know better than to go in and audit " a unit, and you would know what to look for and what resources were available to evaluate a unit program. Why you and why that unit?

Make sure you are running the latest version of Adobe Flash Player. Depending on the capabilities of your computer you may need to close other applications to free up some resources. I just took the training without a single glitch, it took about 50 minutes. Yes, its basic information but its a start and the information is accurate and still useful even though basic. Never assume that everyone knows the basics. We have all seen evidence that such an presumption is not accurate.

Unless you live in a very unusual council more than likely your district boundaries are determined by school districts and county lines and not demographic make-up.

"In a crew both need to be over 21, one male and one female. If they are married and the husband is over 21 and Crew advisor, and the wife is registered as a Boy Scout Leader (ASM, or example) she still cannot attend the crew outing as a leader. She cannot attend at all because in the crew she could only register as a youth. Go figure on that one." Perhaps and perhaps not, your scenario does not state the age of the wife.

All you proved is that the forum is not a good sampler for accurate statistics and I agree. You have not proven that this is a problem of any size or that the three individual incidents are indicative of a regular occurrence. You guys use terms like many, sevral, and multiple. You got three incidents and that's all. You are blowwing three incidents into some huge problem and you have nothing to to prove it with.

lilzog I hink you are doing a wonderful thing but you might not be taking the best approach. I have some experience with grief counseling as my parents were grief counselors for many years. I would suggest you contact a local church that has a certified grief counselor and seek advice. One problem you have is that what you propose you have no time control over, and with 25 people trying to tell a story your campfire could last for hours. Plus the goal is not to make people sadder than they are but to help them grow past their pain into a state where they can remember their loss but be able to accept it and function on a more positive level. As an example having them walk up to the fire and add a stick to it as they say a positive characteristic that they remember about their loved one. They can see how the character of that person adds to the glow and the warmth of their fire. They can feel a postive uplifting feeling as the fire grows. I am sure that a trained grief counselor could give you several other ideas. Good luck BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

If I am to rely on the word of the Scout or the observation of the beneficiary, then their signatures should suffice. Why would the Eagle project requirement be any different from any other requirements that a troop leader signs for?" You are under the mistaken idea that the BSA program says that the unit leader is responsible for testing and signing all advancement requirements. That is not what the program says or teaches. In fact the program states quite clearly that there are several others who can sign for the scouts requirements including other adults, other scouts, and the scout himself. Are you to take his word that he did the work. He is a Life Scout!!!Should you not know by now if his word is his honor or not??? How will you know if the project is done? Talk to the benefiting organization. Talk to the scout, go vist the site AFTER the project if you like. There are losts of ways for you to know with being there to make the scout feel like you are the one in charge and not him, because that is what the youth will think. Your council advancement committee is wrong. No other scout or scout leader is required to be at a project, the scout can get his lablor from ANY source he needs. Youth Protection is an adult leader responsibility at SCOUT ACTIVITIES ONLY, and this is not a scout activity it is clearly an activity of the benefiting organization. You falsley give the impression that it is a scouting activity when you improperly inpose scout regulations on property that is not the BSA's for an organization that is not the BSA, for an activity that is not sponsored by ANY LEVEL of the BSA. You cannot impose BSA youth protection on people who are not BSA members at an evant that the BSA tells you is outside the sphere of scouting. When the scout in playing on that high school team for his sports merit badge can you impose the youth protection policies on the team??? onthe audience??? It is outside the sphere of scouting, the scout is using the activity toward his advancement. The Project is no different. "I also spoke with very knowledgeable and experienced Scouter from a neighboring council yesterday. Her husband is their district's advancement chairman. Her response to the idea that Eagle projects are not Scout activities was "that's crazy." And from the responses to this thread it doesn't appear that the councils represented here are using it either." HHHMM I will try to be diplomatic here..."I am unimpressed!" there are 1.2 million volunteers in the BSA. even if 90 percent understand the program completely that still leaves 120,000 who don't, you obvioulsy spoke to some of them. I didn't check with a Council advancement volunteer, I checked with official manuals of the BSA , i checked with members of the national advancemnt committee and the director of BSA training, and the directors of Health and Safety and Risk Management services. They all agree that I have a correct understanding of the situation. That is why the advancement policies manual says the project is done outside the sphere of scouting. Most posters on this forum never knew that patrols could camp and hike on their own even though it has been in every handbook for almost 100 years. Today they all agree that that is what the program says even though few have yet to use it in their programs. The BSA knows what their program is and they put it in writing for all to see. Some choose to never see it. Some choose to see it and not accept it. Some learn it and follow it. The volunteer ranks are made up of all three types of volunteers. You spoke with people from the first two groups. You can choose to be a person in the third group. Remember the BSA is not what some people think it is, the BSA program is what the BSA says it is! whay are you asking a neighbor when you should be looking it up in the resources of the BSA? The Eagle Scout rank procedures are easy. Some adults make it hard by imposing their personal ideas and standards rather than learning and following those of the BSA. If scout leaders put as much effort into teaching and allowing youth to apply leadership skills BEFORE they got to the Life rank instead of after they begin writing an Eagle project plan then a lot of this process would not be getting handled so badly by so many adults. One time on this forum I posted a list of questions given to about 40 district and council advancement committee volunteers at a Philmont Training Conference. Every question was on the Boy Scout advancement program and every answer was found in either the Boy Scout Hanbook or the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures Manual and the best score anyone got was 40%. None of them even knew how many ranks there were in Boy Scouts. Most adult leaders do not take the training available to them or read the manuals on their role in scouting. You do not need to read many posts on scouting forums to see that is true. I gave you specif manuals and pages of the resources that support the facts I am giving you and you offered what? "i talked with another guy who hasn't read the policies and he thinks "that's crazy". Well how can I argue with that level of research? The BSA has not a bad job of communicating, THEY WROTE IT DOWN IN MANUALS! Unfortunately a lot of scouters fail to read. That is hardly the fault of the BSA, they do not choose the leaders. Rather than slog why not read the manuals use the official resources available to you and and lead?

Sorry Be_prepared, I mentioned the reference in my earlier post. Venturing Leader Handbook Page 330 under Coed Overnight Activities ASM59 do not confuse two-deep leadership with no one-on-one contact. A single adult is allowed to be with multiple youth, just not one-on-one. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Gern, There have not been "several" complaints in this thread. There were three, that's all just three. You are just making a mountain out of a molehill. All you have so far is 3 units who had a problem out of thousands. This is a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth for nothing. Eagle 90 your personal attacks do nothing to further the discussion or to show your knowledge or ability to discuss the topic ratonally. You should be able to discuss the topic and not the individual posters. One would have to assume that without any substantive information to share you chose instead to just attack me. How many people who aren't on this forum are having the same problem...You haven't the slightest idea so why do you assume it is nmore rather than less?

Wouldn't you rather spend more time training junior leaders than to have to keep every scout in your sights at all times.

Gags You may want to review your youth protection training as well as the Guide to Safe Scouting. Both state that the unregistered adult must be a parent of a scout who is on the trip. Your scenarios (b and c) using best friends are prohibited by the youth protection policies of the Boy Scouts of America.

You see Lisabob that is how rumors and old wives tales begin. Three people have posted having a problem. 3 problems out of 2100 troops not to mention packs and crews in a single region. 3 problems in how many years and you say ..."but then you see multiple, similar, stories from others in the same region here and you begin to wonder." Then only thing it makes me wonder is what one feeds an imagination to make 3 grow into such a huge problem. We are not talking 3 out of 4 or even three out of ten, but three out of several hundred or even thousands. While I realize it is an inconvenience to the very few units who experienced this, you have yet to prove that the problem is the norm, or even frequent, or what actually caused the delays. There have been several hundred scouters who have seen this thread and you have 4 people to say they have had a problem (3 from 1 region and 1 from another) that's not even enough to prove there is a problem with the posters here, let alone with all the troops nationwide. This is just not the issue you magnify it to be.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

jet I am confused. What CORs? COR is the commonly used but incorrect code for CR or Charter Organization Representative of which each charter organization has only 1. If you mean committee members (MCs) you might consider not wasting your time. Committee members should no more be running a committee than assistant scoutmasters should be running a troop. There are three people that lead a troop The CR, the CC, and the SM. Everyone else is in support of either the CC or the SM. As long as you try to solve these problems through their version of scouting rather than the BSA version of scouting you cannot hope to change things. Good Luck BW(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Hopefully eventually someone will be willing to say it.

CNY Your quote is out of context for the discussion since it does not relate to coed overnight activities. There is a different standard for coed overnights than for other scouting activities. For the other posters, Who is covered by BSA liability protection? answer: Registered adult leaders. Do you feel this should considered when asking a unregistered adult to be personally responsible for the scouts. Keep in mind that only on coed overnight activities does the BSA say a registered adult must be "housed with and personally responsible for the (insert Male or Female) participants". If they are to be responsible for the participants should they not be registered?(This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I would suggest having a serious heart to heart with the committee chair and let him or her know that the goal of scouting is not to crank out eagle scouts or herd scouts through the ranks. If that is not what you want to do then just do not do it. If they want you to be Scoutmaster, and all you want is to follow the scouting program then they should respect you and the program enough to let you do it or I would seek a better troop.

Jet There seems to be a bigger problem at hand then who does your Scoutmaster conferences. It seems the unit you serve measures its program effectiveness by its ability to crank out Eagle Scouts. That is an even bigger problem. I guess you need to decide what you want your legacy to be. Are you to be just another in a long line of scoutmasters in that unit who does what his assistants tell him to do, or would you like to provide a scouting program instead of an advancement factory. Your choice. And if the CO does not want an actual Scouting program then why would you want to be the Scoutmaster there? On average a scout advances about one rank every year. How many scouts do you have currently registered in the troop?

"Keep in mind I've tried to change this, but they've been doing this for years and are not willing to change." Definition of "unit tradition": Doing things wrong for so long that people think it's right. Managing the advancement program is your responsibility as Scoutmaster jet526 and not the ASM's, CC's or CR's. You need to do what you know is right for the scouts and the program.

First I am glad you agree that your situation is the rare exception and not the rule. Second I do not think everything is the volunteers fault but here are some simply truths; 1)There are 1.2 MILLION volunteers and only a few thousand professionals. I believe the current average is about 1 professional for every 400 volunteers. Odds are that volunteers will make more mistakes than pros simply due to their numbers. 2)Almost everything that happens involving the unit happens at the volunteer level. In fact almost everything that happens in the BSA happens at the volunteer level. For that reason odds are that if something goes wrong it happened at the hands of a volunteer. 3)If that is not enough evidence consider this, all professionals must get training and most volunteers choose not to. 4)If that is not enough I can offer my long experiences as a volunteer at the unit, district, and council levels and tell you that as frustrating as some professionals are most problems in scouting take place at the unit or District volunteer level and have nothing to do with professional scouting. Finally and you may not like to hear this, but anyone who has spent any time in scouting or any volunteer organization knows this is true; professionals are at least interviewed and are hired because of potential or existing skills but most unit volunteers are selected because they raised their hands. When luck is on the youths' side the person has actual leadership skills. But too often today all units require of a leader is their ability to raise their hand. I am sorry you were unable to find contact information for the regional office on line. Did it occur to you to call your local scout office and just ask for the phone number???(This message has been edited by Bob White)

An adult scout leader is a registered member of the BS. The Venturing Leader Training syllabus and the Venturing Leader Handbook both say that "Male and female adult leaders" for coed overnight activities.

We had a situation once where the committee member responsible for the tour permit did not get it to the council until two wekks bfoire our trip to an out of council camp. The camp in our preparation to attend made it clear that a National tour permit would need to be in hand to get into the camp. Our council contacted Central Reagion. They told us to proceed and they faxed the approved permit directly to the camp. No threats just courteous communications. The region is not trying to spoil anyones event. Their concern is the safety of the scouts. Again, for a permit approval to go beyond a few weeks would be very rare. And is probably traceable back to the application not being filed in time or lost in the mail (it happens). I have also seen where the application was returned and misplaced by the unit. How many times have we had kids with "stolen" pocket knives that turn out to just be misplaced? Before units start throwing hissy fits and threatening people they should try some courteous phone calls and if needed re-submit the application.

Adult "leader" refers to a registered adult in the BSA. Otherwise they are refered to simply as adults or parents. But a leader in the BSA is registered with the BSA.

BE_PREPARED Only Venturing Crews and Sea Scout Ships are permitted to have coed overnight activities. Here is what it says in the Venturing Leader Handbook. page 380 under coed overnight activities. part 4 "An adult male leader must be housed with the and responsible for the male participants. An adult female leader must be housed with and responsible for the female participants." Adult leaders are registered members. My post was accurate. The leadership requirements for coed overnight activities are different than the two-deep leadership requirements for non-overnight activities.