Bob White

The advancement policies state that all requirememnts except the board or review must be completed PRIOR to his 18th Birthday. Can the day of his 18th birthday be prior to that date?

rkfrance Commissioner servcie has always supposed t-o be involved in all these areas and in some councils it has been for many years. I do not know what your experience or training in commissioning is but let me share the Mission of Commissioner Service with you. The Mission for all commissioners is to insure that all eleigible youth have the opportunity to experience a quality scouting program. Now that you know that ask yourself what affects a quality scouting program? Does training (leadership development)affect the quality of program? Certainly. Does advancment affect the quality of a scouting program? Of course it does. Does the outdoor program affect the quality of a scouting program? Yep! Does fundraising affect the quality of a scouting program? Does membership growth affect the quality of scouting? Yes it does. So you see why Commissioner Service is already involved in these areas? Why do you suppose that the District Commissioner sits in an equal and parallel position to the District Chairman? Before there were scoutmasters, there were commissioners. Before there were District Committees, there were commissioners. Before you criticize the plan you might want to wait and see what the entire plan actually is.

I too noticed the Nayle Staff wore the patch above the right pocket. I know that with the new uniform there will be a new uniform insignia guide coming out. Let's see what it says.

This has nothing to do with the use of a trademark. The Scout would be leveraging on the name and reputation of the BSA in order to obtain donations for another organization and that action is prohibited. Why would you put so much effort into finding a loophole when none is needed. The candidate can simply represent himself for what he is, a volunteer for a project to benefit (place the benfitting organization's name here). Better yet Get an operating budget from the benefitting organization. The purpose of the project is to demonstrate leadership not demonstrate ability to beg for donations! This is not a scouting activity, it is not sponsored by scouting, there is no reason to use any reference to the BSA or its programs in order to seek donations for another organization. Why is it so hard to just follow the rules? We are Scouts for pete's sake, we are supposed to the ones who are trustworthy and obedient. Why do we have some leaders who are always looking for ways around the rules? It's embarassing.

GNX got in with the right info first.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Get a lawyer.

First the good news. All you need to do in order to do things right is to stop doing them wrong. Luckily for you you know precisely what you are doing wrong AND you know what you should be doing instead, That knowledge alone gives you far greater ability to creat change than the leaders who are still oblivious to what they are doing and how it should be done. Yes, there was a time when there were no boards of review. There was also a time when we taught you to put butter on burns. Those days are gone, lets move on and focus opn what the program IS not what it used to be. You raise an excellent point. Technology is quickly doing away with the need for many basic knots. Bungee cords, velcro, slide locks and other such devices have replaced the need for knots in many camping applications. So what to do? You need to create opportunities for scouts to use knots. Pack racks, clothes lines, wash stations, all make the knowledge of knots and lashes useful. Rappelling, boating, fishing, are just a few activities that you could be doing that require the knowledge of ropework. Modify your equipment. If I had tents with plastic slide locks on the guy lines I would probably cut thenm off so that taughtline hitches had to be used. Create a knot tying board where scouts can hold knot tying challenges for prizes or recognition. Use the ability to tie knots as the selection process for favorite activities. Get creative, that is what leaders do. Find ways to make the lessons meaningful. I fully expect that within our lifetime the knot requirement in Boy Scouts will be altered, Just as I expect the use of a hand ax will be taken out. Technology changes our lives and scouting has always reflected those advances, but slowly. ONE MORE POINT if I may Beavah stated that the bor cannot ask any skill related question. That simply isn't true. That never was true. The board can sk anything require the scout to perform the requirement. You can't have him tie a tautline hitch but you can ask him what it is used for and what he uses it for. You can't have him demonstrate CPR but you can ask him what he learned about identifying a heart attack and how he feels that knowledge will help him. You can't ask hime to go outside and identify 10 animals but you can talk to him about the animals he saw. You can get a lot of useful information without asking the scout to perfornm the skill for you. So to say that you cannot discuss the skills is absolutely incorrect, you can discuss any skill or requirement you want, you just cannot retest the scout by making him perform the requirement. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

learn long and prosper No he cannot. The BSA prohibits the use of the names or images of the BSA when seeking donations ofr other organizations unless it is a BSA sponsored approved activity. The candidtae does the project as a representative of the benefitting organizaation not as a BSA member. The Advancement committee guide on page 5 under the heading Responsibilities of the Council Advancement Committee includes the following in its listing..."Determine procedures for Summer Camp advancement." on page 7 under Advancement in Summer Camp says "Make sure the program at the summer camps encompasses Cub Scout, Boy Scout, and Venturing procedures for advancement. The procedures should be established, in writing, by the council advancement committee in cooperation with the camp director or program director prior to the beginning of camp. The BSA clearly makes the advancement committee responsible.

Well, for one thing it is the board's responsibility to review the Eagle Project and determine if the scout adequately planned and applied leadership through to the conclusion of the project. If the board decides that he did not then the scout would not have completed the rank requirements yet. Once the board has determined that the scout has met the project requirememt, the balance of the bor is basically a counseling session to learn how the troop's program has benefitted the scout's growth. In other words you are trying to find out where the unit program is working and where it needs to improve. You are also helping the scout to understand what the program and he have accomplished together and make sure that the scout flles that this has been a positive experience for him. Finally you are mentors helping the scout to set his next goals and helping him understand how to plan for them. I hope you will find these elements important enough to keep the bor as a part of the Eagle rank advancement process.

Let's remember that there are lots of other volunteers that do not work at the unit level. The new knots purpose is to recognize all leaders who take the time out to sharpen their tools as well as those volunteers who attend PTC to help facilitate the many conferences that take place there each year. We have other knots to recognize the time volunteers take to attend basic training. Why not a knot that recognizes scouters who go beyond that level to take more specialized supplemental training. If the work involved in this recognition results in more trained leaders and better trained leaders then it is a service to all scouts in the program and worth recognizing. Besides that it is the BSA's program and they develop whatever recognition they want if it will help to strengthen and deliver their mission.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

uz2bnowl You are certainly right about the standard of the Eagle Scout Rank being recognized throughout the American culture for decades. Here is the part I think you are missing, That reputation came from, and still comes from, the standards and requirements set by the Boy Scouts of America NOT by the standards and requirements set by uz2bnowl or another unit leader. At no time were you asked to be the guardian of the Eagle Scout rank, all you were asked to do was follow the policies procedures and programs of the BSA. What is the minimum amount of work that has to be done by a Scout to earn the Eagle Rank? You will find that to be the requirements set by the Boy Scouts of America. Meeting the BSA requirements is all the Scout has to do....no more...and no less. As an adult leader in the BSA how could you possibly not know that?

Dan from a logical point of view your post is most illogical. Since anything you see or hear requires each of us to interpret in order to comprehend it, by your definition...nothing can be right since everything is interpreted. The BSA resources on the topics I used are not unclear in any way. They say specificially what the correct answer is. If you try hard enough you might find a way to twist it, but if you just read what they say and accept them fro what they tell then they are incredibly simple to understand. You just want them to be tougher so you look for hidden meanings, or because others misinterpret them and you don't want to "rock the boat" you capitulate to their terms rather than stand up for the truth of the matter.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I would try to include a Cub scout from each age group.

quibble or disagree with the answers as you wish, but understand they are not my answers, they are the BSA program as found in the official resources of the BSA. There really is no arguably point about them. The variable is whether or not you choose to follow the BSA program as you agreed to when you signed your membership application. I can quibble whether or not the speed limit on my street is too low, but that does not change what it is. So the question becomes do I follow the rule or not, and not is the rule right. Because even if I do not know the speed limit I am still responsible for following it. Ignorance of the rule is not the rules fault.

You are correct Jet. As you pointed out the key phrase here is SINCE JOINING. It would seem many adults overlook those two words and only see the numbers. Scouting is about the outdoors but it is not a camping club. There are lots of things that patrols and troops can do outdoors that will not require spending the night somewhere. Troops that camp every month often complain about the poor attendance at these activities. They should realize that one of the reasons of the poor attendance could very well be that there is too much camping. I know troops whose meetings consist of nothing that cleaning up from one campout, planning the menu and packing for the next campout. No wonder Scouts get bored in the first couple of years! Camping should not be the steady diet for an outdoor program there are too many other things that a patrol or troop could be doing with their time.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Gern As a Scoutmaster and as a Roundtable Commissioner I regularly used a Question of the Day posted at the door or on a poster board in the meeting room that we then answered at the end of the meeting. It was an easy way to slide in an extra bit or training in a fun way. BW

You are welcome. The program is riddled with beliefs that either never have existed in the program or no longer exist. Not enough scout leaders actually read the scout handbook beyond the pages that list the requirements. And too many scouts have left the program because of leaders like that.

Of the answers you provided this one is still incorrect How many personal references must a scout supply on his Eagle Application? The scout must provide the names and contact information for 6 references if he is employed, 5 if he is not. Parent/guardian Educational Religious Employer 2 others Common errors on the the other questions Saying Scout is a rank and counting Palms as ranks Thinking Sheet Bend is a required knot Thinking that there are other knots in the camping merit badge or other meritbadges that the scout would need to know for Eagle Adding the days and night required for Tenderfoot, Second class and first Class together. There are only three night total since joing Adding the lower rank camping nights to the Camping merit badge and saying that the minimum ims 23 or 26 Many people still believe a merit badge must be finished in 2 years. Most scouters have no idea what the rules for merit badges are. Parents can be counselors to their sons. FALSE FALSE FALSE FALSE FALSE FALSE Some adults think that other scouts serv onthe board, a practice that changed decades ago. Anyone the scoutmaster approves can sign for advancement, even other scouts Even the Scout himself can sign as in the case of Scout Spirit there are no elective merit badges required a Scout can earn Star and Life using ONLY Eagle required merit badges if he chooses. NO, A person cannot seek donations for an outside organization using the name and image of the BSA unless it is a BSA activity approved by the council scout executive or the national office of the BSA. Eagle Scout projects are "outside the sphere of scouting" You must be a registerd anhd approved counselor for each mb you counsel, even if you are a SM. The District Advancement Committee is responsible for training units regarding the BSA advancement program. The Council Advancement Committee is responsible for the merit badge and advancement programs at Summer camp. Answered at the start of the post. ZERO, it is the council/district advancement committee who is responsible for collecting the references. You cannot postpone or cancel and Eagle board of review for lack of any or all references. Kudos to anyone who took the time to find the right answers. If you do not know the program you should at least know where to find the program information, If every leader on this and other scouting forums did that there would probably be fewer posts and far more worthwhile ones.

It's Me, uz2bnowl, and some others completely miss the boat on how a bor purpose and how it functions. To think that a bor is a rubber stamp and has not ability postpone an advancement that has bnot been earned is incorrect. While it is true the board cannot retest it can aske how a requirement was completed an if it was not done according to the BSA requirement the board has the authority to postpone the advancement until the requirement is met correctly. As an example there is a requirement that the scout is to to use lashings to build a useful camp gadget. When asked what he built and what lashings were used the scout said he din't really know what the lashings were but he built a pack rack that collapsed about an hour after he put his pack on it. Well the bor has every authority to require the scout to do the requirement correctly. A rack that falls down is not usefull, and he was supposed to use lashing that he had learned to build it. If he doesn't know what lashings he used then he obviously did not learn them. If he was told to spend two nights but says he went home sick the second evening and did not spend the night, then he did not complete the requirement, and the board has the responsibility to have the scout complete the requirement as stated in the HAndbook. Training, Training, Training. We have a lot of people leading a program that they have not taken the time to learn. If you are on the committee and the scouts that come before the board are lacking the basic skills of scouting, then you need to be having a serious talk with the Scoutmaster about how the skills are taught and practiced, and who is doing the testing and signing the books. This is a program problem not just an advancement problem and the SM is respponsible for BOTH!

ASM59 the scenario you described sounds not only in keeping with the policies of the BSA but also in keeping with the spririt and methods of the advancement program. BW

And when someone uses the information as a way to hobble a scouts advancement rather than as a way to develop scouts in an encouraging way, which type of a person are they?

You are very close ASM59, while this is an excellent topic for the Scoutmaster's Conference there is nothing that says the Scoutmaster must concur. What the BSA Boy Scout Handbook says is that while other requirements can be measured by other people, the Scout Spirit requirement is best judged by the scout himself. That neither suggests or requires that the scoutmaster must concur in order for the Scout to judge himself. Nor does the requirement in anyway suggest that it is linked to any number of nights camping, or attendance at unit meetings. While it was nice of OGE to take the time to retype passages that are readily available in the Boy Scout Handbook for posters, it would be nice if leaders took enough interest in their role in scouting to at least READ the handbook for themselves. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

the Scouts inactivity in the unit or his lack of participation at campouts is not considered a hurdle to his advancment accordinng to the policies of the BSa regardless of any leaders personal opinion. It would be HIGHLY recommended that those leaders wishing to obstruct this scouts advancement take a few minutes to read the related materials in the BSA Advancement Committee policies and Procedures Manual.

What if they did that Knothead and something updated in one handbook?

Mike if you read the requirement for Scoutmaster Conference you will see that it is not a Pass/Fail requirement. RThe requirement is to HAVE the conference, there is no "not passing" it. Scout Spirit according to the BSA program and as written in the Scout Handbook is not judged by the scoutmaster. So how can the Scoutmaster be responsible for signing it? If the scout met the requirement then he earns the advancement. While we do not have all the details it certainle seems, according to your post, that the advancment was complete but that the scout was not advanced.