Bob White

Simply being a member of the CO does not give you permission to go on an overnight activity with other peoples children. Let's use a little common sense here.

Jbklake What "written permission from the BSA"?

You expect reasonable people to believe that the camp did not know that the vendor would be needing individual waivers BEFORE they signed the contract with the vendor? Sorry, but I personally do not find your posts to be trustworthy enough to believe that scenario.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Firequencher Perhaps you did not take notice of the title of the publication? It is The Advancement Committee POLICIES and PROCEDURES. Everything in it is an official BSA advancement POLICY or PROCEDURE.

If you know that certain activities require waivers then wouldn't part of your planning be to obtain the waivers in advance and get them signed by the parents or legal guardians and take them with you on the trip??? If you know that you cannot participate legally in the activity then should you be attending the activity as a scout unit to begin with???

Two questions, Did anyone at your council look at the Advancemnent Committee Policies and Procedures Manual. You cannot deny that is what it says. Next, since you were personally involved in this conversation you surely paid attention to the name of the person you spoke with. Who was it?

"This isn't even what I'd consider a committee decision. Behavior and misconduct are the SM's to deal with." Your personal opinion perhaps but incorrect according to the BSA. If you read the Guide to Safe Scouting, The Scoutmaster Handbook, The Troop Committee Guide, or take Scoutmaster Leader Specific training you will find that the BSA specifically makes reoccuring bad behavior the responsibility of the Troop Committee.

OOPS! http://www.scouting.org/healthandsafety.aspx The parents want you to think like a scoutmaster not like your friends buddy. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I wouldn't put it that way. I would say that the scout could not participate as there was no parent or guardian present to legally sign the waiver. Whether or not you made him pack up and go home is a separate issue. I would hope that there would be a plan B that could be used. But a troop who traveled to an event not knowing in advance that the would be the need to have have waivers signed prbably does not plan well enough to even consider a plan B.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Here is my recommendation at the following address if you look at the very bottom of the page you can send an email to the directors of Risk management and Health and Safety departments for their official answer. BUT let me ask you this. What risks or benefits do you see in having unregistered adults who are unrelated to anyone else in the unit attend an overnight campout with other peoples children? You do not always need a policy in order to make a good decision.

Whether he transfers or not he still has to have tied 6 knots to get to First Class; Square Knot, Two Half Hitches, Tautline Hitch, Clove Hith Timber Hitch, and Bowline knot. 6 knots! All scouts must complete all requirements of the Scout Badge, Tenderfoot Rank, Second Class Rank and First Class Rank in order to achieve First Class, What troop they did that in is irrelevant. If he had come to your troop with his First Class knot requirement completed you you then say that the nunber of of knots he needed for First Class was ZERO? Why you want to make this difficult is just really strange. The correct answers have nothing to do with your odd scenarios. The answers are all in basic BSA resources.

I think you will find if you check with a lawyer that legal guardian ship (which is what the BSA refers to when it says parent or guradian) is not likely to be the correct way to go in this case unless you really think the mother WANTS to forfeit her parental rights to her boy friend. By law the boy friend would need to marry the mother in order to have any legal standing as far as the child's welfare, and would actually neeed to adopt the child to solidify that legal standing. Which again would require the cooperation of the child's father if still living and assuming he still has parental rights. Remember that there are levels of guardianship, but for someone to gain authority over a portion of a childs life that means that the parent(s) must surrender that authority. So can the boyfriend tent with either child in this particualr case. No, not while at a BSA fnction. Can he gain legal guardianship without a court action? No.

Do Eagles advancem in groups? Dpends on the type of program you have. if your focus is on advancing to Eagle then yes.

acco You are right about Tederfoot 1/1 required knots according to the handbook; 6 1/2 Total knots required throgh Eagle; 6 1/3 minimum days and nights through 1st Class; 3 2/4 Days and nights camping through Eagle; 20 3/5 Time alotted to complete a parttial mertit badge;18th birthday 4/6 Can a parent ve a merit badge counselor? Yes 5/7 adding attendance or participation to active memebership; False 6/8 adding attendance or participation to Scout Spirit; False 7/9 (it doesn't matter how many units you know who do it wrong, the answers are still false.) Who ever the Scoutmaster assigns: 8/10 (they are not required however to be a leader) Who sits on a board of review through 1st Class: Troop Committeee members 9/11 Can a scout sign his own book: Yes 10/12 How many elective meritbadges must a scout have for the rank of Star: None 10/13 Can a scout identify himself as a Boy Scout when soliciting donations for an Eagle Scout project: No 10/14 Which Merit badges acan a Scoutmaster automatically counsel because he is a Scoutmaster; none 11/15 Who is responsible for training the unit leaders about the advancement program: The Council /district advancement committee 11/16 Who is responsible for the advancement program at Suimmer camps: The Council Advancement committee 11/17 How many personal references must a scout give: 5, 6 if he is employed 11/18 How many must be at the bor: None 11/19 57% Why did I give you 8, two reasons 1) because in your original post you gave different answers than this time. 2)I was mistaken, I looked again and you actually had 9 incorrect answers on your first post 10/19

"Of course this guardian issue begs the question, can a SM or CA sign waivers for a minor under this responsibility?" No

"Do you ask the Scout to recite the Scout Oath or Scout Law at a BOR?" No actually, my committee advancement chair would have the board and the scout all stand and recite the Oath and Law to remind each other what they were really all about. I always thought was a very classy thing to do, rather than sit and make the scout perform for them.

"The Council Advancement Committee is responsible for the merit badge and advancement programs at Summer camp. I think that is incorrect,..." The Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures Manual Page 5 says otherwise. Besides your personal opinion can you name any BSA manual that contradicts this? "We still await the answer key. I'm still curious to know what is considered the correct answer for knots" The Official Boy scout Handbook refers to the following as knots required for advancement to First Class; Square Knot, two half hitches, Tautline Hitch, Clove Hitch, Timber Hitch, and Bowline Knot. It does not refer to whipping as a knot or lashing as a knot but says that they begin and end with knots. While some individuals may have a different personal opinion, the quiz was specific in stating that BSA resources would be used for the answers. The BSA handbook says that Hitches are Knots. Feel free to look for loop holes (they are not knots either), but unless you can find something in the Boy Scout Handbook that is contrary to this information the correct answer for the questions on knots is 6. By the way when it comes to the other questions...if you need to find loop holes then your answer is incorrect. The correct answers are all found in the official resources of the BSA, trying to find loopholes is a weak attempt to keep from admitting that you were wrong in your beliefs. The BSa program is what the BSA says it is, not what you think it is.

So if I can just recap here SMEagle819... The Official Boy Scout Handbook in at least three places says that Tenderfoot is the first Rank, The BSA Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual (page 24) says that Tenderfoot is the First Rank, The BSA Scoutmaster Handbook on pages 35 and 123 show Tenderfoot as the first Rank. But "Your Book", the one you wrote on scouting, shows the Scout Badge as the first Rank. And you think that those of us using the BSA Handbooks are the ones forcing personal opinion into the "interpretation"??? Well I certainly don't see anyway to argue with kind of logic. Best of luck to you and your book.

What does all that stuff with the DL have to do with what month the Webelos cross-over? Would he have been any different if you crossed the Webelos in February rather than October or December. The scouts quit as Boy Scouts and not as Cub Scouts and that seems to be an important factor.

rkfrance Your original post does not ask 'where are the commissioners going to come from', it asks 'why Commissioners?', and so that was the point I addressed. Where they will come from is a challenge of varying degrees depending on the community you live in. Keep in mind this was created and developed by volunteers, the National Council Commissioner and his committee, so they obviously see this as a functional plan.

I would think that if it was their Webelos experience that caused the youth to quit that they woul have quit while in the pack??? But they did't. They stayed active in the pack untiul they crossed, and they did not quit until after their first camping experience with te troop. Isn't it possible that their quitting is unrealted to their time as cubs, and directly related to their experience in the troop? I would not worry about their time in the pack, the pack does not seem to have a problem keeping them as members. Perhapps your concern should be more about the ability of the troop program to keep them interested?

SMEagle819 While it is nice of you to respectfully submit what you think the scout badge is , please understand that it is not for your to have to decide. The Ranks are controlled by the BSA and not by any individual leader or computer programmer. Here is what the BSA says . Page 31 of the Boy Scout Handbook, "TENDERFOOT is the first rank you will earn as a Boy Scout. What does that tell you? How about this look at pages 14 and 15 of The Boy Scout Handbook from page 14 "The Boy Scouts will recognize your achievements by awarding badges of rank. The first three are Tenderfoot, Second Class, and First Class." What does that tell you? On page 15 it shows the ranks to Eagle and it starts with the Tenderfoot rank. So what does that tell you? What it should tell folks is that they need to READ the BSA handbooks to know what the BSA program is, not a computer print out. It is unlikely that the BSA will either drop the Scout Badge or make it a rank, it is a joining symbol and has been since its introduction. There is no need for the next handbook to explain it in any greater detail than the current one already does. But even if it did leaders still need to read the handbook.

Don't know who the "some" are that are saying the things to FireKat. I can only tell you that the roll of an assistant Scoutmaster is to fill in for the responsibilities of the Scoutmaster in his or her asbsence. That is what the Scoutmaster Handbook and Troop Committee Guide say. Of course there are leaders who will want to confer with "some" to see if they say that the BSA resources are correct or not. BW

"Our SM is an Eagle. He didn't want to promote this kid but there was nothing that he could point to where the Scout did not do the minimum. So let me see if I have this correct. Neither you or the scoutmaster wanted to see this scout advance EVEN THOUGH neither of you could find a requirement he had not met. How awful for you. A Scout met all the requirements from the BSA for a BSA award. That is so sad. He didn't meet your personal standards but you had to advance him anyway because-shame on him- he met all the requiremnents. Well no wonder you are so upset about this. I cannot imagine how he got away with such a thing.

This is an important question and not a decision you should make based on the opinions of strangers on the Internet. You should REALLY be talking with your District Executive. (This message has been edited by Bob White)