Bob White

The reason is not name recognition but simply clarity of terms. Local names are just that 'local'. They mean nothing to people who live outside the local area. Most scouts and scouters have never heard of White Stag, or Cedar Badge, or Pine Tree. So when they see that to attend NAYLE they need to have taken NYLT and they say "gee I guess I don't qualify because I never went to that." When in fact they may have but under a localized name. The BSA is just trying to clean up communications be calling the same course by the same name nationwide...like with Wood Badge.

My thought was that unless this is a pretty big backyard pool, trying to do swimm tests and then dividing the area by abilities will not only be time consuming but there won't be much room to do anything.

First good for you for suporting the Patrol Method and Patrol Activities. Also kudos for realizing that training is needed. But I caution you about trying to do this by the use of a syllabus. Consider instead the use of leadership, specifically the act of coaching. If you were to ask the scouts how they would get a few friends together to go play some baseball I would bet they would have no trouble explaining that they would, choose a date , a place contact people to see who could come, gather bats balls and gloves and figure out if they were going to walk, bike, skateboard etc. to get to the field. Planning a patrol activity is just that simple. Who What Where When Why How How Much Who is going, who do we need to talk with, who do we need to get permission from, who is gathering equipment, who is buying food? What do we need to take, what are we going there to do, what is the weather supposed to be, what are we going to eat and drink, what are the rules, what else do we need to think about? Where are we going, where are we going to meet? When are we leaving, when are we coming back, Why do we want to do this? How will we get there, how will we get back? How much will it cost, how much food is needed? Answer these questions in writing and you have a plan. Start off with day activities and soon they will be camping overnight. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

The easist way to get started is for adults to talk a lot less, listen a lot more, ask questions rather than tell scouts what to do. Then support the youth's decision and help them to evaluate the results so that they can determine whether it was a good decision or can be improved upon the next time. Don't do anything for the scout that the scout can do for himself.

Hi It's Me Where exactly do you feel I was wrong? Who owns the Scout Unit? The Charter Organization Who is responsible for selecting and approving unit leaders? The Charter Organization. Who has the authority to alter a unit volunteers role in the unit? The Troop Committee Chair and the Charter Organization Representative. Can a Council remove an adult volunteer from a unit position? Only by permanently revoking his or her membership in the BSA. Is the Council/District responsible for operating the unit or for a specific set of support services? A specific set of support services If I am wrong show me the evidence that what I shared was wrong. By the way liability entered briefly and erroneosly in the 11th post not the 18th. It was from ASM915 who mentioned it, however liability is not an issue since there is no personal injury or property damage involved in removing the volunteer. Removing a volunteer is not the big deal that so many here make it out to be. Volunteers get their responsibilities changed or taken away every day. If you are the leader of a volunteer group and lack the ability to evaluate performance and make difficult decisions for the good of the group, then leadership is probably not your calling. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Your right Dan but it does talk about activities in the water, so yes, for a scout activity in the water you must follow the Safe Swim Defense plan. You would be better of not doing this as a scout activity.

It is not the councils role or responsibility to clean up a unit's dirty laundry. Yes, the council is there to help but they are not their to do the units work. Unit leqasdership is the units responsibility. The council can teach you haow to do a better job of selecting leaders, they can provide resources to help the leader be successful, they can help the unit in motivation and recognition of the leader. But choosing the leader and removing the leader is the units responsibility, nopt the councils. If the unit wants to see this as the council not helping, then the unit has training issues. They do not know or understand the roles of the various levels of program, and they need more training...the council can help with that.

While OGE is correct that only physical fitness has a time element lets not forget that the Scout would also need to take part in 10 trrop or patrol activities that includes thre over night outings. Combine that with a weekly troop meeting and that ties up 14 days in a thirty day period. Even the busiest of troops do not have activities going every other day and three weekends a month. Combine that with the time it would take to learn and apply all the other requirements it truly cannot be accomplished in 30 days.

Daycamper, I do not know what training you have taken yet, but in the New Leader Essentials training, a part of the BASIC training sequence for ALL scouting positions you will learn that the unit has belongs to the charter organization and not the council. It resides in the council area. The unit has sole authority in matters of uit membership as long as the scout meets the eleigibily rules of the BSA. The unit is a private organization and can determine its own discipline as long as it does not violate the youth protection poilices of the BSA, this includes supending youth or adults from activities or expulsion from the unit. The council has absolutely no authority in the matter.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

The idea of immediate "give back" by the new Eagle Scout or a scout aging out of the program, is for the most part a manufactured element created by some leaders who, as Fscouter points out, believe that the scout "owes" us something. It's not in the BSA program because it doesn't belong in the BSA program. A person does not have to give service back to scouting in order to "give back" the lessons of scouting. A young person who takes the lessons of scouting and uses it to become a good student, an honest business person, an active citizen, a good neighbor, a good spouse and parent..."gives back" every bit as much as one that sticks around to mentor another scout or serve as an adult leader. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

by 8 weeks out units should already have received event details and be registering to attend.

Nothing requires a unit to wait until recharter to change leaders. The Prorate chart is printed on the applicxation form so hard had can that really be. Nothing requires that a persom given a refund when removed form the roster since they can still transfer to another unit under their current registration. If a person is not doing their job and will not change then relpace them, There is no need or benefit to waiting for recharter dates.

What does the recharter date have to do with it?

The thought that most boys don't want scouting is unsupportable. But it is evidentthat many units do know deliver a scouting program, and that is probably the biggest reason that youth leave scouting.

I agree with you. 8 weeks is not enough time to do the task properly.

uz2bnowl First...one does not "win" any rank, not even Eagle. A Scout "earns" the rank. Second, they earn the rank by meeting the requirements set by the Boy Scouts of America not by having to meet YOUR requirements. No one says the scout doesn't have to be there, he just doesn't have to be there because YOU want him there. And finally you need to know that your council has no say in the matter. There is not a single person in your council or even a committee in your council with the authority to alter a BSA requirement. Your better bet is to write the National Advancement Committee at the BSA national office..OR maybe just learn the program and how to lead it. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

woopitwazme I am sorry your local project advisor gave you the wrong reason. There is no such thing as a legacy project nor does the BSA require that the project have any "lasting value". What is required is that you, that is YOU the canditate be the leader, and witha blood drive you are nor. All you are is the promoter. The Red Cross is the leader, and is you are unsure of that I can opnly suggest that you try to tell the Red cross what to do and see how far you get. Hosting a blood drive is a good thing to do, but it is not an Eagle project it is a Red Cross project lead by Trained Red Cross professionals and volunteers according to Red Cross procedures. You need to plan and lead a project to completion and not help on a project lead by others. So your advisor was right but for the wrong reason. Good luck on reaching your goal of Eagle. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Nike High School science classes all across the country have been doing insect collections every semester for decades and yet I am unaware of any concerns over the impact it has made on the insect population anywhere in the country. Are you aware of any actual evidence that this is a problem, or is this just a personal feeling you have about the activity? As far as who to contact that would the National Boy Scout Advancement Committee at the BSA's Irving,TX headquarters. But before you do that...you might take the time to do some thoughtful investigation of the issues that concern you. Perhaps there is a university near you where you could get more cfacts on the topic from an actual entomologist. If you are hopiong to make the BSA change then you will need to show some actual information to support your opinion. Remember that Insect Study is not a required merit badge, scouts who do not care for the requirements do not have to earn the merit badge.

This question was brought up with the BSA Risk Management professional at Philmont Training Center. His response was that you beed to read the merit badge handbook and the Guide to Safe Scouting (imagine that I thought to myself), it does not say that the counselor needs to be NRA certified. It says that the shooting portion must be done at a range that is supervised by an NRA certified instructor and safety officer. The counselor need not be either.

Twocubdad I never said that the advancmenrt committee should not cooperate with anyone else in accomplishing their goals and responsibilities. So the passages sayiong that the cooperate with the camp management has no beariung on either the question I asked or the answer to it given in the the BSA references under the heading "Council Advancement Committee Responsibilities" The reference is clear and official and deals with the specific question. As for what conflicting information maight exist somewhere in some manual thet you have not read aI can only off that I produced an official reference that was germain to the question, and you have not. When you actually find a BSA resource with information that is conrary to the the one that actaually exists and was presented her then we can discuss it, Until then you have no evidence to contaradict the official Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual...do you? As far as pedantic, I take it to mean you use it as an insult for those who know rules that either you have not learned or do not agree with, and so rather than find a valid reference for your opiion you choose the short cut of attacking the other persons character or personality. Bear in mind I did not write the manuals, I told you what resource you could find the related in formation in, by your standards a librarian would be pendantic. Unless you can produce another BSA document that has authority over the Advancement committee that counters the information I have presented then you have no other mature choice than to accept the official references I have given you as being correct, and your previous conceptions of the truth are in error and you need to adjust your knowledge of the material.

Here is the thing you need to understand Daycamper, that I think a couple of posters are not considerering. Each level of scouting has it's own responsibilities, authority, and set of services that it can offer. Yes, the district and council are responsible for helping units, BUT not in everthing they do. There are some things that are purely the units responsibility just as there are areas of District and Council work that a unit has no responsibility or authority for. The district and council can show your committee how to select and recruit good leaders, they can also offer training for those leaders. But they cannot choose the leaders for you, and they cannot not remove them for you. Each volunteer position in a unit has their own set of responsibilities. Related to your case, it is the Chareter Organization Representative (CR) and the Committee Chair (CC) that are respoinsible for determining who will serve in what role in the unit. No one else has that responsibility or authority. As an ASM the most counseling that a district or council can offer you is to share your concern with the unit's CR and CC and then the ball is in their court. The ONLY exception is if you believe that the Scoutmaster is violating Youth Protection policies, then you must inform the council Scout executive. Otherwise this is a unit matter. The unit is a private organization and while anyone can try and sue anyone for anything, no unit has ever been successfully sued for removing a unit leader. There is no contract for service, every volunteer serves at the behest of another person and can be reassigned or removed for any reason, or no reason, at any time. You do not need a lawyer to know that you cannot be successfully sued for libel as suggested in another post, because the action of the CC or CR to remove the individual is not done publicly in writing in hopes of defaming the person being removed. Nor can they be successfully sued for slander since they are not making public statements for the puprose of defaming the individual. Their is no defamation claim to made either for the same reson. The CR and CC apoproved the SM they can just as simply decide to remove him and approve someone else. No reason need ber given to ANYONE. They picked him...they can replace him. The same goes for every one of us in our volunteer positions. (a responsibility and authority which some units and committee chairs need to use more often). So returning to your original question, what is the process. The process is that at any tiome of their choosing and as often as they see fit the CC and CR should evaluate all adult leaders in the unit. Recognize the ones they wish to maintain and eoither develop or replace the ones they feel are not getting the job done. No one else has that authority at the unit level. If you do not work well with the SM and the CC and CR male it clear that he is not going to be removed, then you should resign the position, since your role is to support the efforts of the SM. If you feel that the SM is harming the program and he is not going to be replaced I would suggest you find another scout unit to join. Here is where your district can be of service to you.

Geez... you have to be kidding firequenchers? Let's hope the lawyers you deal with have a better understanding of the language than you. If you bothered to pick up the Advancment Committee POLICIES and PROCEDURES manual and actually read the passage in its entirity I you would find these words which perhaps you will have an easier time understanding! " The specific duities are as follows." Yes, Eamonn, I have used some of these questions as well as others in the PTC conferences when I have served on faculty. The intial answers, like here are often, based on incorrect information passsed down through word of mouth for God knows how long. The difference however is, that with the scouters I have worked with, once they see the actual BSA refernce material they quickly realize their error and accept that what is in the BSA reference is correct. No one has ever tried to duck and swerve around the printed word the way so many posters want to do. The determination of some people to hang onto incorrect information and incorrect behavior despite the undeniable evidence offered through the BSA is truly disturbing. As I have said before the biggest problem facing BSA is the way we select and recruit leaders at the local level.

What wise counsel can a UC or DC give An ASM who wants to remove the SM other than "the only people with that authority is the Charter organization representative and the Committee chairman,. If you feel that you have information they need to know then you should talk with them. Otherwise, evaluating and selecting the Scoutmaster is not the role of the ASM." ???(This message has been edited by Bob White)

As an ASM you have no say in the matter. You are welcome to give your opinion to the Charter organization representative and the Committee Chair. But determining who the Scoutmaster is is not your role or responsibility. District personal have no authority in the matter either, you do best to keep this at the unit level.

It would seem that the BSA sees it differently than you do. They say that "actively engaged is about the scoutmaster staying in touch with the scout not the scout staying in touch with you. If a scout is absent you should interested in him enough to contact him, or you are being as inactive as the scout.