Bob White

The BSA would disagree. As evidence, units do not have a tax exempt ID from either National or Council. The unit is a part of the charter organization. This is an element of what is called the Charter Concept structure of Scouting. The CO contracts with the BSA to use its programs and abide by its policies and procedures. The unit belongs to the CO and uses the BSA program but is not an agent or auxiliary of the BSA. And while indiviuials are members of the BSA that membership is limited and does not give the member the corporate status of the BSA. The Councils too are separate corporations from the National council. Each separately contracted to be the legal agent of the BSA within a specific geographic area. Units do not make up the council. Charter organizations belong to the council and the units are youth program owned the charter organizations. As I said before the BSA owns the program and its identifying names and symbols of the Corporation which is what gives the BSA the authority to control their usage. The local unit volunteers have NO authority in altering those policies.

Any notion that that a leadership function or a camping skill is based on distance just is not logical. The reason BP wanted patrol separated by that distance is he same reason the BSA supports Patrol Campouts. Too many adult can't control themselves around young people. They can't keep their mouth closed long enough for a youth to make their own desicion and try it. So BP's solution was to put the adult far enough away to make it too inconvenient for him to constantly walk around and tell the boys what to do. From the amount of complaining over the weight chart it seems that if patrols are 50 ft apart that a lot of adults will be too uncomfortable to walk over and micr-manage them.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Any notion that that a leadership function or a camping skill is based on distance just is not logical. Independence is a matter of choice not of distance.

I disagree that this is a nit. Your definition Beavah, gives the definite impression that the troop is a not-for-profit charitable organization and that is an incorrect explanation of the structure of Boy Scouting.

Boy Scouting is not a charity. The Boy Scouts of America corporation is a not-for-profit charitable organizaion. The local Scout Councils are not-for-profit charitable corporations. Boy Scouting is a youth program developed and made available through other organizations for youth. It is one of a few programs developed and offered by the BSA to both for profit and not-for-profit organizations to use for their youth programs. Boy Scouting in itself is an acvtivity not a charitable organization.

Correct for Bobcat you have to study and know elements of the Cub Scout program and Cub Scout traditions, the same is true of earning AOL/Scout Badge. But you do not study "Boy Scouting" to advance in other ranks.

I would agree that you do study Boy Scouting in Webelos as far as for Arrow of Light you nee to know the Scout salute, the handshke, the parts of the badge, the menaing of the Oath and Law. But that is true of when you join Cub Scouts to. For Bobcat you study the basic elements of Cub Scouting. I would strongly diagree that for the Boy Scout highest rank you study Boy Scouting. That simply is not true. You study a lot of different things; leadership, sciences, citizenship, woods tools, a whole host of things that people outside of scouting study also. You could change the age limits however you want, it won't alter the ability of the leader to deliver a good program or to know how to develop young people. A mediocre scout leader to 14 year olds is not going to suddenly become a good leader to 15 year olds. If the unit you are in cannot retain older scouts your problem is your unit program and not what label you call the scouts by, or what uniform they wear. And your unit program quality is determined by the unit leader. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Why do you need to let people know who you are? The Scouts know who they are isn'that enough? And they will hopefully learn from this that it is important to help others for the sake of helping others and not for the recognition they get from it. Matthew 6:2 "Therefore when you do merciful deeds, don't sound a trumpet before yourself, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may get glory from men."

Firekat??? Hasn't this thread proven that there are scouters who can't be trusted to wear the uniform correctly even when there are rules regarding it? You think they'll make better decisions when the rules are removed. What would make you think that?

Actually I am using it in the field of marketing. Brand Exclusivity is a marketing term that refers to a company, a product, or a product line, creating an concept of uniqueness within a market category. Something that the BSA has done a very good job of in the area of charater development. How were you using it?

Just as many people know the term Tenderfoot as they do Eagle Scout. The BSA is losing its Brand Exclusivity??? To Whom? Some one else is using Boy Scout? Eagle Scout? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

"Bob, then stop telling people they have to believe in YOUR "God" in order to be Scouts." Trevorum, I challenge you to identify a single post of mine where I made any such claim. In fact I welcome anyone the opportunity to sho a link to any post of mine that says this. Let the hunt begin!

It is a vaild statement that some do misrepresent what the Eagle rank signifies. It is a terrific personal accomplishment worthy of recognition. It is not the purpose or goal of scouting as some would represent it to be. Currently about 5% of scouts achieve the Eagle rank. if the goal of scouting was to turn out Eagle Scouts then that would mean the program since its inception has failed over 95 percent of the time, and that simply isn't the case. To make the Eagle anything other than a wonderful personal achievement would indeed be misrepresting its place and its purpose in the BSA program.

eeek, again the long posts. Gosh where to begin this time? If you were an experienced saior and familiar with the Sea Scout program why all the nautical errors and mistatements about the program? You make statements based on guesses found on whispers of information. For instance you assume the Safety Boat is what we use for adult supervision, It's not. You make it sounnd as if we are racing litlle JY's, we are not. You imply that inland waters are always calm, You obviously do not have the depth of boating experience you claim. An active on-water Sea Scout Ship is evidently not as rare as troops that use Patrol camping on this forum. There is no shortage of advaenture available in Scouting. It is a mystery as to so many posters would rather make excuses as to why they can't have adventure rather than take the time to learn how they can. Eagle92 The Eagle Scout Rank is the goal of some scouts, it is NOT the goal of Scouting. It is a fine personal accomplishment. Scouting however is filled with fine personal accomplishments, Eagle is just one of them.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Do you always worry about things that haven't happened and may not ever happen? With all the possible things that could encompass how would you ever get anything else accomplished?

"..even when I read the Fundraising rules, I am not sure I would connect it to the Salvation Army thing" OGE here is what the rules ays, explain how you could NOT connect it to the Salvation Army thing? Youth members shall not be permitted to serve as solicitors of money for their chartered organizations, for the local council, or in support of other organizations. Adult and youth members shall not be permitted to serve as solicitors of money in support of personal or unit participation in local, national, or international events. For example: Scouts and leaders should not identify themselves as Scouts or as a troop participate in the Salvation Armys Christmas Bell Ringing program. This would be raising money for another organization. So just how does someone read that and not know that it includes the Salvation Army Bell ringing program? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Why would the BSA want to open the door for even more abuse of the Scouting uniform?

I really do hate it when you write long posts Beavah. You say so many wrong and incongruous things in one post that it is difficult to respond to without having to post and even lengthier missive. To be as short as possible...Nah you are wrong about a lot of it. In addition, the BSA did not put the warning labels on ladders either. The litigiousness of or our society was not caused by the BSA. Nor was the over protectiveness of the American Society. Your representation of the foreign Sea Scout programs is vague and unsupported. We have as a consultant to our ship a Sea Scout Skipper from New Zealand who does not share your belief in what happens in Sea Scout program in his country. You made that up based on what you believe is a more permissive less restricted society but lets admit it you have no direct knowledge of their program do you? Just as you really had no idea what International Waters meant. You guessed based on what you thought it was. Another point is that just as those who say we should change the age levels simply because others do it differently but do not provide evidence that different is in any way better. Your presumption that because other countries have less safety rules so their program is better lacks any evidence to support your premise. As others on this very forum have shown, there are adventure opportunities that many leaders never take advantage of, due either to choice or lack of knowledge about the BSA program and its policies. There is plenty of adventure available to scouts that they are never allowed access to by the choice of the Scout leader. By the way, the Ship crews a safety boat as part of our service to the local fleet. We rarely follow behind a boat with an all scout crew for a few reasons. 1) We follow the slowest boat, and that is rarely one with a Sea Scout youth crew aboard. 2) The most dangerous boat on the water is often the one with the most experience sailors, as they tend to operate the vessel the most aggressively. 3) Our scouts are in life jackets, few of the other racers are. We not only have good sailors we have safe sailors and to think that the two are mutually exclusive would be yet another misconception. You simply are too ill-informed, and too inexperienced, to address this issue reasonably.

Inability to meet the height/weight limit does not mean you cannot be a volunteer in the BSA programs. It only means that you will not be allowed to risk your welfare or the welfare of others by participating in High Adventure activities. That is not a bad thing. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

The fact that you are raising funds for another organization using the the Scouting uniform is what makes it against the rules. Whearing the uniform while you raise money for the unit or for Scouting is rarely an issue unless you are selling a commercial product or service. You are prohibiting from soliciting in the Scouting uniform for other organizations. OGE Isn't saying 'the council knows it's wrong so they can stop me if they want', just the smae as saying 'I can go 50 mph in a 30mph zone, because the police know its wrong and they can stop me if they want'? I thought that as good role models adults would be wanting to do what's right not what they want until they get caught or told to stop? Why cant the unit help the Salvation Army and follow the rules at the same time? As a Rountable Commission we had the SA in every year registering units to help man bell ringing locations, but we remined the units of the regulations that they were not to be in uniform when they participated. That never stopped anyone from helping. What is it that stops the unit from both helping and following the rules?

"knowledge of" and "permission to" are not the same thing. Bottom line the BSA specifically prohibits the use of scouts to raise money in uniform for other agencies. The Unit wants to help the Salvation Army, that is a wonderful thing. The BSA requires that you not wear the uniform, that is their legal right and authority. Nothing prevents the unit from both doing what they want and doing what the BSA requires except for the behavior of the unit leaders. Is their anything I have just posted that is incorrect?

Do you remember reading the passage in the BSA's Declaraton of the Religios Principle that says the BSA is

The BSA does not say to help them be a good anything other than a good Scout. The BSA asks that all leaders include religious elements that help each scout to understand their Duty to God and to show Reverenece to God, while being respectful of each scouts individual beliefs.

Again Beavah, You simple do not understand the program or the BSA safety policies. You are not required to have an adult aboard a vessel in order to have adult supervision. When you canoe do you have an adult in every canoe? Sail boats are treated no differently. Sea Scouting is a program you have no training in or experience in Beavah. I could understand you asking questions about it but you lack the background to be telling anyone what the program is or what the rules are.

If I mistated what you said I certanly did not intend to.