Bob White

Dengar One You misunderstand what the passage you quoted is saying. It is not telling you not to send a scout to a board if you do not think he is ready. It is telling you not to sign that the scout is ready and count on the board to reject him. It is telling you not to sign if you do not feel the scout should not advance. However if you choose to do so you had better be able to point to a BSA requirement that he has not met, because that is the only reason for not signing. As you see in the reference supplied by OGE even if you do not sign...the scout still gets his board. That's because determining if the advancement goes forward is the board's resoponsibility and not yours as the Scoutmaster. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

OGE has given you a correct reference, which is available on-line so there is no need to have the printed version in hand. Another would be The Scoutmaster Handbook, Chapter 11 under the heading "Inappropriate Behavior". Yet another resource is the Scoutmaster/assistant Scoutmaster Leader Specidfic Training Course. Still another resource is the Troop Committee Guide Book page 42, under the heading "Behavioral Problems". Also, in the Senior Patrol Leader Handbook you will find "Conflict Resolution" on pages 96-97. In The Patrol Leaders Handbook you will find a portion titled "Putting Out Fires" on pages 105-106. Those are just the resources for the Boy Scout Program. So here is the flow First the scout himself should be able to self regulate, he knows by this age what is right and wrong and should be able to show a large level of self control. If not.. the Patrol Leader's training is to try and diffuse the problem by talking and listening to the scout and looking for solutions that relate to the values to the scout Law. Still no resolution? The patrol leader can turn to the SPL who usually has more experience, and more maturity to resolve the problem. Still no luck, then it goes to an adult leader, who will also try to resolve the issue through counseling, but if the scout's behavior interferes with the delivery of the program then the SM is instructed by the BSA to send the scout home. Once home the matter now goes to the Troop Committee who decide in conference with the parents an appropiate behavioral expectation or the can instutue punishment including removing the scout from the troop. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

No one said he couldn't talk to anyone he wanted. But the mature thing to do would be talk to someone who actually has authority to do something about his concern. He can talk to anyone he wants, but only the CR and CC can do anything about removing another unit leader. No one said he couldn't talk to the district, we said it was a waste of time because the district has no authority in the matter. even the council can only step in if a YP issue is involved. So why not just talk the the two people who can actually act on his concern? He is welcome to his opinion but he and others still need to understand how the administrative structure of the program works.

Can you be specific, or at least not so ambiguous? What part of the explanation of the ScoutParents role that I shared from the ScoutParents Guide even hints at an adult lead program? Where in fact does it say ANYTHING about them leading scouts? Where does it say ANYTHING about them leading the unit? Your fears are completely unrelated to the facts of the program.

I don't recall there being a limit, but when I can get my hands on my son's Sea Scout Manual, I will check. BW

When a scout tells someone outside of scouting, a potential employer for instance, that he went to Cedar Bark, do you think he would be as impressed as if the Scout said that he had been to the Boy Scouts National Youth Leadership TrainingT

ursus, What you keep missing is that when the ASM calls the district he will be told "you need to share your concern with your troop committee chairman and your charter organization representative, because unless the SM is violating a youth protecton policy then there is nothing the Council can do. Only your CR and CC can remove the leader, if they don't know how they can call me and I can train them". Sound familiar?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

ScoutParents is in fact a BSA natioanl program, hence the fact that it is a registered position in the unit and its designation PC appears on the newest version of the adult membership application, it also has a POR patch,it is not an outside company. Whether you were refering to my post or not does not matter. I was asking what in the information from the ScoutParents Orientaion Guide which I posted bothers you. If you do not want 'parents getting in your way' then I would think having a person designated to keeping them busy doing other things is just what you want?

I don't see where anyone has said that it negatively impacts the course. The multiple names inhibit clear communications. If every community had a different word for a football game and you were talking with them and they said they had just been to great White Stag, you wouldn't know they meant a football game. It simply a matter of clarity in communicating.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Ah yes, when you can't discuss the topic using knowledge, then attack the poster with insults. BrotherhoodWWW Whether or not the unit operates 'by the book' has nothing to do with the structure of the BSA, the roles of the various levels of scouting, OR the correctness of my statements. Since you mentioned it let's look at what the current Commissioner Fieldbook says. In Chapter 9 How to Remove a Volunteer under the sub heading "WHO HAS THE AUTHORITY" "Who has the authority to remove a volunteer? A good rule of thumb is this; The person or group with the authority to appoint a volunteer has the authority to remove and replace that volunteer." so Brotherhoodwww, who selects and approves the Scoutmaster? The purpose of this chapter is to explain to the commissioner that at what their role is,that is if asked, to train the unit as to who can remove the volunteer how to do it with as much damage control as possible. That means be private, be calm, be polite, be business-like. It also ends with two thiungs to remember. 1)Do what is best for the scouts, 2)The BSA has the right to choose its leaders. Both points that I shared in my posts. In other words the role of the Commissioner is to train the leaders. Did you not read the posts were I said that the role of the District is to train and support, but had no authority in removing the leader? That is exactly what the Commissioners Fieldbook says. If you are to say that I was wrong then provide evidence that I am wrong, keep your personal insults to yourself please.

"According to BSA literature the scoutmaster should not put a scout before a board that he feels isn't ready for the rank. This is taken from that literature" Dengar One, According to which BSA literature??? I am confident that idea is not expressed in any BSA resource. If you read the section on "Boards of Review" in the Scoutmaster's Handbook or in the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual you will quickly see that your statement is unsupported by the BSA materials. You will not find the notion that 'a SM should not put a scout before a board of review if he isn't ready' ANYWHERE in the resources or training materials of the BSA. Your role on the project is to sign the appropriate spaces if you believe the scout met the requirement. But you as the Scoutmaster are not the final word. Whether or not the scout advances is for the board of review to decide. You can be sure that they will consider the fact that you did not sign that the project was completed and it will likely affet the outcome of the board, but that is their job, not yours. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

The BSA has no membership policies regarding tatoos, that being said, it has been pointed out before that the responsibility of selecting and approving adult leaders at the unit level is in the hands of the charter organization representative and the committtee chair for each unit. They can use whatever criteria they want as long as it does not conflict with the policies of the BSA. As far as the BSA program is concerned tattoos are a non-issue.

There is nothing that requires the candidate to include any other scouts in the workforce. The workface can be made of of whomever he chooses. Your SPL should not have had the expectation of a cal from the candidate. Yes, we all agree that you do not have to sign the workbook if you feel the project requirements were not met. But you do not get to decide if the scout advances or not. That authority belongs to the board of review. If the scout felt that he was done you should have arranged for the board, given the board your opionion, and then let them review the scout.

What specific element of what I posted bothers you jblake? They all seem to be very positive attributes: encouraging their scouts to live by the values, stay in the program, participate, persevere in their advancement. What part of that can you not like??? You ask scoutmasters why kids quit and they say "lack of parental support", now the BSA has a program to address that and then you and others now say "we don't want parental support for scouting"? Very odd indeed!

Yes the Wood Badge Course is a National Course, as is BALOO, as is New Leader Essentials, as is NYLT, and a host of other BSA courses. What actual price is paid by the youth by standardizing a name???? Does not a rose by any other name smell as sweet?

OGE is correct. It is the board of reviews job to determine if the project was completed and if the scout showed leadership. If you do not believe that he did then you do not need to sign the workbook, but it is still not for you to decide that the scout does not advance. If the Scout does not complete he project for the benefiting organization that is between them and him. I certainly think it reflects poorly on Scout Spiorit as it would be hard for the Scout to honestly say he has been Trustworthy and helpful if he has left the project undone. IF the Scout decides on doing a different project he needs to have it approved by all the required parties BEFORE he can begin. If he starts before he hass all the approvals it will be refused by the council at the board of review. In my opinion you were far too involved in the young mans project.

Like for most information on the Scouting program you can contact your local Scout Council, they will have the ScoutParents materials before the end of the month. In it you will find role definitions for parents. It will look like this... (taken from the ScoutParents resource Guide) ScoutParent A ScoutParent is a parent or adult mentor of a Scout who enthusiastically participates with their Scout and also helps other volunteers to provide the best quality program experience to all youth in every unit. A ScoutParent: Leads their family in obtaining the values, benefits, experiences and rewards from their familys Scouting participation, and in sharing these with others; Enjoys participating with his or her Scout and inspires their child to persevere in Scouting with their tenure, activity participation and achievement; Helps enhance youth and parent-mentor recruitment, retention, enthusiasm, commitment and participation in the passionate GREAT Family FUN of Scouting!; and Helps Make It SO!

At some point in time Its Me and some other posters will need to develop a more substantial method of discussionthan "uh ih your wrong, despite the facts" if they are planning to discuss the BSA program and its elements. To say a poster is wrong about scouting merely because you disagree is a flimsy hook to hang your hat on. If you have evidence in the way of a BSA resource that is contrary to what a person states about the BSA then you should share it. But to simply say a person is wrong without any evidence, other than your own opinion, is unlikely to convince anyone else, unless of course they are as equally unprepared to discuss the matter. Its Me you credit me with statements that I did not make. That too is a very poor way to engage in a discussion and expect people to grant your opinion any validity. The facts I shared with dampcamper were all correct. And again, I welcome you or others who know of any BSA resource that says otherwise to please share them with all of us.

Leadership is not the only requirement that must be met. The BSA has set boundaries on the the project itself (and these are not NEW). One of those boundaries is that the project should not be routine labor. The Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual page 27 "Routine labor, a job or service normally rendered, should not be considered." Picking up litter, regardless of the administrative elements you add to the background, is still routine labor. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

You do now.

Sounds like they need a ScoutParent Coordinator to explain to them what their role should and shouldn't be, and to put their energy and resources to better use. If they are doing something that they have been asked to do you can hardly blame them for a willingness to help. It would seem the probelem is with the person who gave them the assignment, he or she does not understand the parents role in the unit.

I also heard a presentation at PTC, and while I am still trying to find the handout amid all the stuff I brought back, my personal recollection is that that it is a "registered" position and not a required one. I find nothing at Scoutparent.org that says it is required, and I looked at the Scoutparent information on my council's website and other council's as well and find nothing that says it is required.

What BSA source has said that this is a required position?

Scouters can be funny creatures they complain that there is not enough parent support, then they say that parents are too involved. They demand that every parent help out on something during the year, then they complain that theyt don't want the parents around. They argue that the training is no good, but then they want every parent trained or they are worthless. Yes Scout leaders are funny creatures indeed. The ScoutParent program started as a pilot program in a single council and has since been adopted by the national program. The purpose is to help balance the units need for adult resources. The role of the ScoutParent Coordinator is to recruit parents with skills and resources that could be of benefit to the uit program and help coordinate their specific involvement in support of the needs of the unit. Think of it as the Parental HR director. The ScoutParent Coordinator would be present at committee meetings to listen to the manpower needs of both the program and administation teams of the unit, and to match willing parents with the work needed by the unit. Why ANYONE would be opposed to this kind of support is anyone's guess, but then scout leaders can be unusual creatures. I think that some leaders want scouting to be a family activity just as long as it is THEIR family and not someone elses. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Ok Its Me, I understand that you don't like what I posted, but what you have not addressed is where I was wrong. Whether or not you like what I post is irrelevant, what is important is that it was factual. So I go back to my question. Do you have any evidence that the information I gave was incorrect?