Bob White

I wasn't going to get in on this but some pretty scary things have been said here. The POLICY of the BSA (and no unit has the authority to add to or subtract from advancement policies) is that "the boy should be neat in appearance and wearing as correct a uniform as possible". That does not mean that we can refuse a Board of Review if he is not in uniform. Such a rule within a troop would be a violation of BSA policy and the scoout would have the right to an appeal before the council advancement committee. I will tell you from first hand experience on two appeal boards that I was asked to sit on by the national office that rarely will we find against the scout. Once a unit strays from BSA policy they will be found in error. the program is here for the boy not the adult and we will give the boy an impartial review. If you know a boy has a uniform and he doesn't wear it, hold the Board and discuss with the boy whether he is showing maturity and spirit by not "being prepared" for his Board. Can you refuse the rank if he is not doing his best to meet the ideals of the program. (read the Advancement guideleines on the steps to take when you postpone advancement. What if he only has a shirt and belt? Did he wear them as correctly as he could? Does that meet the rule? Sure! Does that mean we change our expectation or our definition of what a uniform is? No! The Uniform is from Shoulder to Shoes and is defined ONLY by the BSA. No UNIT has the authority to change the reuired uniform pieces. Official shirt, offical pants, official belt, official socks. The scout may not have all the pieces or all the resources at this time, but our goal and our definition of a "Boy Scout Uniform" is set by the National Executive Commttee and no one else. Military wear in scouting is prohibited by our charter with the U.S. congress. Can that be any clearer? I can understand a boy not having a full uniform in his possesion at some point in time. What amazes me are fellow volunteers who believe thay have the authority to alter the uniform according to personal whim. Punishment for not being dressed according to your expectations? That violates so many policies it is staggering. Guys take a weekend off and set your priorities. Character Development, Citizenship and Mental and Physical Fitness. Those are our only goals. You are not teaching these boys the lesson you think you are.

The Scoutmaster Handbook gives some suggestions on how to use Assistant Scoutmasters. Here are a few they mention and a few additional. * Fill in for SM when needed * Oversee New Scout Patrol program * Webelos Resource Person * Lead certain Introduction to Leadership conferences * Train Den Chiefs * Oversee Venture patrols * Adult quartermaster * Grubmaster for parents and adult leaders on outings * Skills trainer for Junior Leaders * New family orientations * Fill in the blank It all starts with training!

My apologies for the spelling in my last post. My fingers are way ahead of my spell checker. yers in scooting blob wite

An excellent question. Certainly as Scoutmaster you need the Scoutmaster handbook, however don't expect any single publication to be able to cover all the information in a program the size and scope of scouting. The SM handbook is a reference guide to troop leader administration. It refers to other resources for more specific info. Your training team and your local commissioner can direct you to official BSA materials. Scouting Bulletin Boards can be a good tool providing that the reference you to actual scoutin materials and don't just pass along their version of what they think scouting is or should be. Remember this is the BSA's program, we get the fun of delivering it to youth not changing it to fit our ideas. I'm not sure that we are reading from the same Scoutmaster Handbook. i will admit that mine is 3 years old and I do not have my training kit in fron of me to see if that has a more recent version. I see 5 mentions of the scout uniform. The first mention as one of the primary methods of the scouting program and 4 mentions as Uniform Inspections during Troop Meetings. Since 1910 The scout uniform has been an important part of the program. There are program goals and Aims that would be difficult if not impossible to accomplish without thr uniform. The Advancement guidelines say that a Scout should present himself at Boards of Review "neat in appeaarance and in as correct a scout uniform as possible". That does not mean that we can refuse a Board of Review if he is not in uniform. Such a rule within a troop would be a violation of BSA policy and the scoout would have the right to an appeal before the council advancement committee. I will tell you from first hand experience on two appeal boards that I was asked to sit on by the national office that rarely will we find against the scout. Once a unit strays from BSA policy they will be found in error. the program is here for the boy not the adult and we will give the boy an impartial review. If you know a boy has a uniform and he doesn't wear it, hold the Board and discuss with the boy whether he is showing maturity and spirit by not coming prepared for his Board. Can you refuse the rank if he is doing the best to meet the ideals of the program. (read the Advancement guideleines on the steps to take when you postpone advancement. What if he only has a shirt and bely? Did he wear them as correctly as he could? Does that meet the rule? Sure! Does that meen we change our expectation or our definition of what a uniform is? No! The Uniform is from Shoulder to Shoes and is defined ONLY by the BSA. No unit has the authority to change the reuired uniform pieces. Official shirt, offical pants, official belt, official socks. Nobody goes to a baseball game wearing shoulder pads and a football helmet. Let's stop making unit rules that allow youth and adults to go out in public in half a uniform looking like they got dressed in the dark. I'd be happy to post a list of official manuals that every troop should have or know of in order to present a quality program. Let me know if i can be of help. Happy Scouting!

evmori, did you know that national found that boys who did not reach reach first class first year were something like 6 times more likely to quit at the end of the year and 8 times more likely to quit within 3 years. First Class First year gives the scouts the frequent recognition they need at that stage of development, the outdoor skill exposure to be comfortable camping, and a buffer period to socially adjust to older scouts. It is a Primary goal of the scouting advancement program and the heart of the New Scout Patrol system. Of the 13 new scouts who joined us last year, only one will not complete First Class First Year, and he is the only new scout who has quit (and according to his parents it was because of problems with his studies and he hopes to return). I really urge you to implement this program using the New Patrol Method under the guidance of an Asst. Scoutmaster and a Troop Guide for every New Scout patrol of no more than 8 boys. Rotate patrol Leadership every month so that each new scout gets to attend the patrol Leader's Council monthly meeting. This teaches them how the youth leadership operated the troop. Run a seperate program under the leadership of the ASM with the troop Guide acting as Co-Patrol Leader. They can still do some activities with the older patrols but they need their own program stressing the basic scout skills and activities from Tenderfoot through First Class. Once they reach First Class they have the option to stay together and form a new older patrol or they can opt as individuals to join existing Patrols. This is a tremendously powerful program to train and retain new scouts.

Our experience has been that new scout retention is greatly affected by 1. Crossing in February so that they get comfortable with the troop and the outdoors before they head to summer camp. 2. If they are Arrow of Light, they get a quick review and Scoutmaster Conference the first Troop meeting. So that they can leave the first meeting with their Scout Badge. (give them their scout handbook at crossover so that the parents can complete the youth protection section prior to the troop meeting. 3. Most important, achieve First Class First Year. 4. Get the parents involved in some way. Hope this helps, Best of Luck

We seem to have drifted from uniforms into the area of BSA policies. It's an excellent discussion but should probably be in it's own string. I've started one in the Open Discussions forum. I apologize if I come off preachy, but to me BSA Policy seems a pretty clear-cut subject. Enjoy

This string is an offshoot from a unoform discussion in another string on this forum. There seems to be a great misunderstanding as to what is BSA policy, what are recommendations and what are procedures. There also seems to be a question as to where this information is found. All BSA Policies are available in the publication 'Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America'. The policies within this book cover three topics primarily. Uniforming, Advancement, and Safety. Most of policicies,procedures, and program applications addressed in this publication are found in 'The Insignia Guide', the 'Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures' manual, and the 'Guide to Safe Scouting'. As explained in the first two mentioned, Insignia Guide and Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures, everything written in these books are unalterable except by the National Executive Board. No unit regardless of their intentions may add to, subtract from, or disgregard any this rules. The Safety Policies and Recommendations are found in the 'Guide to Safe Scouting'. Information typed in bold print are policies and MUST be adhered to. Information in regular type are reccommendations based on expert advise and experience. The program and assorted procedures are found in the various youth and adult handbooks and training manuals. Some of which offers the units room for customization BUT NOT when it comes to Safety, Uniforming or Advancement, unless such action is specifically stated (such as optional neckwear). I urge anyone involved in this program to go to training and take their roles and responsibilities in this program seriously. We signed an agreement to follow the policies and programs of the BSA. Let's keep our word.

That's great andrews. Just a reminder that the COR should (needs to) be a member of the Chartering Organization.

I think you are right korea scouter that we agree more than disagree. Uniform is however controlled by national policy because the uniform is a registered trademark of the BSA. National is not about to send out uniform police to make our members toe the line. they rely on our trustworthyness as scouts and scouters to keep the promise we agreed to when we signed our registration applications. Every adult and Chartered organization signed a contract with the BSA to follow the policies and programs as set forth by the BSA. It is unfortunate that so many adults fail to keep the promise. When you think about it, none of the methods of scouting are required at registration. We rely on the character of our volunteers to employ the methods of scouting in order to provide a quality program to our communities. If we were to make something mandatory at registration it should be adult training, however the BSA's unique charter with congress makes that impossible. we must work through the Chartered Organizations that use scouting to reach the youth. Every Chartered organization signed a pledge to use the BSA program and adhere to their policies and regulations. It is there resdponsibility to see that the leaders they select have the character to abide by those rules. It is unfortunate that there are leaders who use some of our program elements while wearing some of our uniform and then complain because they don't think the program is achieving what it should or the boys don't behave the way they shopud or National does things oddly. OK what about the cost of uniforming? My scout hat is off to Sctmom. She has hit it on the head. The uniform is a great value when compared to other youth activities, especially those of shorter duration and less program time. As far as the design... the pants pockets are evidently designed to look at and not use (this drives me crazy at times. However if the price of the this outstanding program is porrly designed pockets then that is a price i will gladly pay. Congrats to Chippewa29. That is a winning scout attitude. I look forward to seeing you in Scouting and Boys Life. I've enjoyed our discussion KoreaScouter. it's obvious that we agree on wanting to do a quality program and that uniforming is part of it. i hope you will encourage others iin you are to get trained. We made a promise to the program and too the youth we serve to offer a true scoutiing experience not just an experience in a scout shirt. LET'S KEEP THE PROMISE. Best wishes for successful scouting

I understand where you are coming from on this topic but I think we see the cause of the problem differently. For instance, you say that the the reality is that Class A's nad B's exist because units have it in their By-laws. I see from the standpoint that Uniforms, Advancement and Youth Protection are the three areas of scouting strictly controlled by BSA Policies and units have no authority to set rules that are counter to those policies. If they followed the scouting program and explained the purpose and the facts of scouting uniforms more scouts and more adults would be in uniform. These illetimate "unit By-laws" are part of the problem. I would hate to see uniforms made mandatory at joining. I know that must sound counter to my stance, but it really isn't. I want the scout and the leader to wear a correct uniform because it the right thing to do, not because their membership required it. I would rather see a boy grow up with good character and no uniform then with a good uniform and no character. I want him (and adults in a full uniform to show pride in thier appearance, to show they are proud of the scouting family and the ideals we stand for, and because he has accomplished things in his young life and feels a sense of dignity for his work. Now of those things will happen if he has no choice. The growth comes from the realization that it is the right choice. As far as the price... I don't buy the it (pardon the bad pun). If they were on the football team they would have no problem wearing ALL the uniform and the equipment to go with it. Can you image a boy hitting the field wearing different pants than the rest of the team. or not wearing the team socks because he didn't like the fashion statement. Try to convince me that those socks are utilitarian and not tradition. There are lots of ways to afford a correct uniform. Few if any units don't use scout accounts as part of fundraisers. My Son has used Popcorn sales to pay his dues, buy his uniform and pay for activity fees for years. We make sure he buys on Shirt sleeve shirts and gets them a size too big so that there is room to grow and he can layer clothes under in cold weatther. we buy the pants long, with the elastic waist and hem them with a along cuff to the inside so that they can be let down as he grows. He wore one uniform through Cubs, Got his scout uniform in 2nd year Webelos and has worn it through his second year of Boy Scouts. That's one uniform every three years or under $30 a year. We are still the cheapest sport in town. As far as the design... lets be honest the pants pockets were designed to look at and not use (it drives me nuts sometimes), but we are a huge club and change takes time. I'm am so proud of who we are, what we do, and how we do it, that if the price I have to pay is crummy pockets... well that's fine with me. Let's face it good uniforming helps deliver a better program and positive reinforcement, adherence to National uniform policies, and informing youth and adults as to the purpose and benefits of the uniform method is what gets the job done. We are our own worst enimies when we set the example by mixing non-uniform pieces with uniform pieces and continue telling the fairy tale Class A and B. We just did the New Leader Essentials and Troop Committee Challenge Training with my son's troop. After which we presented the 14 members with their Trained strips. They quickly realized that we expected them to be uniformed and when the subject of what pieces were needed they questioned if uniform pants were required. When I asked "if your son was heading to a job interveiw in a suit jacket, tie, and gym shorts on..would the parent suggest they put on the matching pants instead? They laugh and wrote down pants on their shopping list. two members have already bought the full uniform.

I agree Korea Scouter that this is a wide topic and not solvable in this format. i was just trying to address the class A class B topic. I also mean no disrespect but as pointed out in the new Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training there are indeed two uniforms (as described in the catalog). They include 2 shirts, the uniform shirt and the activity shirt (an optional uniform shirt) the terms Class A,and Class B do not appear in any BSA training material or resource material.

Feeder Packs? I've never really appreciated this term either as a Troop leader or Pack Leader. Any troop can recruit membership from any pack. What makes the differenceas to where the boys go? Usually it all comes down to program. the boys will want to go were they percieve they will have the most fun. If by feeder packs you refer to Charter Organizations that use multiple scouting programs to serve youth, such as a Cub Scout Pack AND a Boy Scout Troop, of course they will have a high recruitment rate. Don't you expect the members of your church's youth choir to join your church's adult choir. One of the benefits of an active Charter Organization is that they often grow thier scouting programs to meet the growing needs of the youth they serve. Let's not get caught up in whose pack or troop is biggest. Program..."if you build it they will come". Concentrate on a quality scouting program with trained enthusiastic leaders, mix in good communications with local Packs and a dash of Den Chiefs, and you will have Webelos crossing by the Patrol full. Best of Luck for successful scouting!

Sorry to be answering so late but I just joined and saw your post. You have terrific district resources to call on. Invite a a member of the Cub Training team or a member of the commissioning team to vist your Pack Committee, or Pack Program committee meeting, for additional training or to just answer questions and share scouting resources. Rember that New Leader Essentials and Cub leader Job Specific are just BASIC training. There are lots of printed material, people resources and additional training like POW Wows, Roundtable, Wood Badge, Baloo to help you. Don't feel like you need to do it all right now. Plan for it, schedule it, make it part of your units annual planning. Don't forget to select a Pack Trainer and send them to Trainer Development/BSA 500 to learn how to implement training at home in your own unit. Best of luck for successful scouting!

I glad to hear that many of your units have a good relationship with your parent organizations, the Chartering Organization. Old Grey eagle was very close when he said that the CO "in a sense owns the program". The actual situation is that The BSA owns the program, the Chartered Organization owns the Pack, Troop or Crew. In 1916 as the climax to a copyright battle between Chicago publisher, Chicago publisher W.D. Boyce and publishing mogul William Randolph Hearst, the Congress (friendly to Boyce) recognized (chartered) the BSA rather than Hearsts similarly named group. Since that day the BSA has been required by congressional charter to operate only as a youth outreach through community,and commercial organizations. This is mostly good and sometimes inconvenient but rarely a bad thing. OGW is correct that in the case of adult misconduct the CO can be sued, but so can the committee, the adult in question, the establishment were it happened etc. etc. etc.. Let's be honest a lawyers job is to get everything they can for their client. The Good news is that if you followed the Safe Guide to Scouting procedures, and the scouting prograns Youth Protection policies, the chance of any wrong doing happening is extremely rare and improbable. Also, if you followed the scouting policies and you are sued, the National Office of the BSA will provide your legal protection and the Liability protection you bought through your membership fee and annual Charter renewal will pay any finiancial losses. A great reason to get all adults trained. One day in another thread we will discuss units leaving one CO for another. Think of it as the chior at the Catholic church leaving to become the chior at the Presbyterian Church because they like the acoustics better. A good relationship between unit and CO starts with the the Scout Law- "a Scout is Friendly". If you are dissatisfied with the condition of the relationship it's time to reach out and fix it. Best wishes for successful scouting!

Congratulations on organizing a new troop for your church. Your questions have sparked alot of good conversation. Let's look at how scouting is administered and the responsibilities of the various parties involved. First, who should be the Committee Chair, Chartered Organization Representative and Scoutmaster. At this stage you are both unit organizers and should be working with your local District Executive, District Commissioner or Unit Commissioner, District Membership Committee and Training Committee to see that you have all the scout resources available to get the troop off to a strong and correct start. Secondly, it is the Charter Organization Executive Officer's responsibility to select the Charter Organization Representative and together they select and approve the Committee Chairperson. The Charter Organization and Committee Chair select and approve all other adult leaders. This process is important as part of our youth protection emphasis. As long as the spouse is not the only person to sign the adult applications there is nothing wrong with them being a signature. In my experience as a long time volunteer I would strongly recommend not to have a spousal team of Scoutmaster and Committee Chair. The political messes that can arise are obvious. However since she is a member of the church she would be perfect as the Charter Organization representative or as a Committee Member. Third: As far as not having enough adults yet, keep in mind you will not have a charter to operate until you have at least 5 registered adults; COR, CC, 2 committee members and Scoutmaster. In addition you need at least 5 Scouts. Take your time, do things right and use the resouces available from your District professional and volunteer staff. Best wishes for successful scouting!

You raise alot of intersesting points, however some of the responses have also caught my attention. Something that I feel would answer many of the topics that have been raised in this thread is Partricipation in New Leader Essentials and Scoutmasterand Assistant Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training. One thing that you will learn at training is that there is no such thing as Class A and Class B uniforms. In the Boy Scout Program there are 2 uniforms. The dress uniform and the activity uniform. The dress uniform consists of the official tan shirt, scout belt, scout pants or shorts and scout socks. The activity uniform substitutes the official red golf shirt with the Scout emblem on it for the tan shirt, and includes the scout belt, scout pants or shorts and scout socks. anything else is not being in uniform. Not that not being in uniform is always a bad thing. There are times when being in uniform is inappropriate. However in the situation you discuss, hiking, the activity uniform is very applicable and is used by many scouts. What about Troop Shirts, and other scout t-shirts? They are fine depending on the circumstance, but let's stop refering to them as class B's. they are simply out of uniform. The program goals that the uniform Method is used to accomplish cannot be met by being out of uniform or only wearing the shirt. The program allows for both uniformed and non-uniform activities. The 2 official uniforms work for most but not all situations. Be in Uniform when you can and when it's appropriate, and wear other appropriate clothing when not in uniform. But let's remeber that a uniform goes from shoulder to shoes and is not just about dressing alike. Best wishes for successful scouting.