Bob White

Appeals almost always result from "adults" refusing to play nice together. An appeal process does exist for all rank advencements. It is clearly outlined in "Advancemenet Committee Policies and Procedures" as stated by Doug343. Doug, I agree with you, the process you have described in the distributed flowchart does not follow the national policies. I see nothing wroung with training anyone who wants the information on the advancement process about the appeal process. After all it is in our printed publications. I would prefer that leaders focused on the spirit of advancement and the aims of scouting as to whether or not a scout advances. Here are some points to remember. 1. The whole point to advancement is not to become an Eagle Scout but to be a good person. We are not trying to teach how to build a fire, we teach Character, Citizenship, Mental and Physical Fitness. The rank requirements are tools we use in this development. 2. Don't read to much into the requirements. example- the handbook does not say that a service project must be PRE-approved. It says the project must be approved. If the scout comes in and offers evidence to having done a worthwhile sevice project (citizenship), you are expected to sign the book. 3. You might be surprised by the number of adults who use the with-holding of a boy's advancement as a way to express their distain for the boy's parent(s). A cowardly but common act. You need to ask yourselves, "is it the character of the scout we are evaluating or the emotions we feel toward his family". 4. Commuicate with the board or reveiw. Scoutmasters and ASM may not be present at Board of Reviews (there is an exception in Eagle Boards), but that does not mean you as SM cannot tlk to the Board before hand and share areas of concern you would like them to discuss with the scout. 5. KNOW your scouts. Scoutmasters have two jobs, train Junior Leaders and know the needs and characteristics of every scout. You will only have the time to do this if you use the patrol method and let the boys run the troop. Don't be the dictator of the troop and then complain that you have problems with the program. If your not using the program you can find the problem in your bathroom mirror. 6. Have a program that allows the boys to advance as they participate. Then you just watch for boys to use the skills they learned and sign them off. (catch boys doing things right) If you havae appeals happening in your unit I guarrantee that adults are doing something wrong, not the boys. I hope this helps you. Bob

Try checking with your local newspaper, many offer community pages on their web sight. Ask your local ISP they might donate a site. Learn the resources of the adults in your unit. You might have a parent with the connections you need.

Melodee, I've been a unit volunteer in 4 councils, and in each one the rule of 2-deep leadership was strictly maintained. Scouts behave better for their own leaders, and the staff is their to provide program not unit leadership. In addition, as you mentioned, scout safety is a priority. Should a unit leader become sick or injured another unit leader needs to be present to care for the scouts. My suggestion, explain the rules to the parents so they understand that Cubbing is a family activity. Most every adult would be able to take 1 day from work to enjoy day camp with their kids.

You are probably surprised I waited this long to jump in on this. I'm sorry that this string wasn't titled 'A scouts duty to God'or "a Scout is reverent', that would have eliminated some retoric. I'm sure at an early point of the the BSA the thought of a our 'duty to God' was based on Judeo-Christian beliefs. However over time that quickly evolved to a far broader foundation of "God" a a superior power that is recognized in a variety of ways, by a variety of organized (or disorganized) faiths. I single out the BSA for this because some international scouting programs are specific to a single belief. For me the best example of the positive nature of religion in the BSA took place at a campout while I was Scoutmaster. One of my assistants was leading a fireside chat on 'a scout is reverent'. A young scout of 12-years of age said "I'm not sure if I beleive in God". The ASM was a Presbyterian minister. He rose quietly, moved across the fire ring and sat next to the young scout. The minister put his arm around the boys shoulders and said "the most important thing for you to know is that God believes in you". The boy smiled (I was ready to cry). The BSA has not intention of forcing a particular interpretation of God on anyone. It simply asks for its members to accept the existence of a greater power, which created us and the world we share, and the BSA asks us to give service to "God" as a symbol of this acceptance.

Good News Feathers. It is not something you or the committee members have the ultimate responsibility for. The selection of the Committee Chair is the responsibility of the Charter Organization Representative and the Charter Organization Exectutive Officer. I would let them know of your plans, and remind them they need to select someone else. I'm sure thay would appreciate a recommendation from you as to a parent or committee member that you feel would do a good job.

I'm sorry you have a situation like this to deal with. I agree with Bob Russell (and I haate to admit it, Ann Landers), to take the high road. The 18-year old young man may have a grudge against you now but time heals all wounds (well most anyway). He'll remember the meaningfull Eagle Court you give him long after he forgets abou the grudge. I t will also teach him a lesson abot living the scout law. I know some troops give the scout and the parents the responsibility of the Eagle Court because "it was the scout who earned the award". But didn't the scout earn all his other ranks, and the troop celebrated and presented those? I see no difference with the Eagle Rank. I agree that the scout and the family need more input to assure that the ceremony incororates personal touchees to make the presentation special for the scout. However it is a Boy Scout rank and I feel should be organized and presented by the Boy Scout unit.

LauraT7, You got some very good advice so far I wouldn't be took quick to go to the air mattress and egg carton plan. You raise a question that new scot parents often ask. If I could offer some advice based on about 50 or more Polar Bear campouts. 1 Air Mattress- fine in Summer, ice cubes in winter. I use a 2" ThermaRest CampRest Pad that I paid $39 for from a well known catalogue/internet camp equipment supplier. Also a few layers of newspaper will give you very good insulation from the ground temperature. 2 Get a good sleeping bag, -10 is fine 3 Change all your clothes at Bed time right done to the skin, the clothes you wore during the day traps micro drops of moisture which begin to chill in the inactivity of sleeping. the less you wear in the bag the more comfortable you will be. 4 More impotant than socks is a knit hat. You will lose alot of body heat out the top of your head. when you get to warm take the hat off, too cold put it on. 5 I like having a pair of fleece gloves nearby 6 Drink lots of water, dehydration is as big a problem in winter as summer. 7 Don't close the tent up tightly. You need ventilation to carry the moisture your breath gives off or your sleeping bag will get wet and icy. Hope these tips help. Bob

You are all raising some great points. please keep adding to this string. Thanks again, Bob

Personally, I feel that when a scoutmaster stops letting the boys lead the troop and has the adults running it he, or she, should be replaced. This might happen after 6 months, 6 years or 16 years. However once it becomes Adult Scouts rather than Boy Scouts, it's time for a change.

As a Scoutmaster, It was the agreement of the PLC that summercamp was a good place to learn be not acceptable to sign off a requirement(as far as Tenderfoot to First Class). We made sure all Scouts understood that they would be reviewed on the skills they learned at summer camp and only the approved unit members would test them and sign them off. As far as merit badges, the adult leaders in the troop visited the merit badge sights frequently to make sure a scouting standard was maintained and things were not being signed when work was not done.

Yes yarro he can get them at his Eagle Court but only if you make him wait 3 months from the day of his Eagle Board until the Day of his court. This would seem to me to be an extreme delay on the scout. Why not give him his Eagle presentation on a timely basis, and then his Palms at a quarterly COH following the 3-month wait period? (or at the first appropriate opportunity following the 3-months)

The problem there Fscouter is that COH are quarterly. You wouldn't want to make a boy wait 3 months to recieve his recignition. Boys this age need immediate recognition or they will lose interest.

I give you alot of credit for your continued effort to implement the patrol method. You're right to give yourself a timeline. a unit that doesn't have these methods fully functioning can't expect to change overnight. The important thing is that recognize the benefit of use the BSA program and you are taking the steps to make it happen for the boys. I'm sure you'll do great! Bob

I'm doing a Boy Scout Roundtable Seminar later this year and I'd be interested in some across the country feedback. This is big picture stuff not about specific scout skills. 1. What feature about your current RT do like enjoy the most? 2. What feature of your Current RT do you enjoy the least? 3. What feature helps you the most in your troop position? 4. What characteristics of the RT staff do you like? 5. What characteristics of your RT staff would you change? 6. What feature would you add to your RT program? 7. How far would you being willing to travel to attend RT? 8. On average how many RT a year do you attend? 9. If you are not a regular RT attendee, Why aren't you? Answer as many questions as you like. Thanks, Bob

100% agreement!

Either my typing needs to improve, or the editing feature on this site needs to start working.

I like your questions Chippewa29. In the past there was a tenure period between the eaarly ranks. That requirement has been changed. Scouts can now complete requirements for tenderfooft, Second Class and First Class simultaneously. Since the boards goal is to determine the growth of the scout and evaluate the program of the troop, and not test the skill level,there is no need or requirement to do separate Board. You do want to keep a closer eye on tracking advancement though to avoid repition of this situation. The reason being the boy will never have the opportunity to display the lesser of the two ranks on his uniform, an unfortunate situation for the scout.

Great points Chippewa29. I would caution you about one thing "raising your standards" the standards are already set by the BSA. Look at it more as elevating your use of the scouting program to meet those standards. I'm not trying to play with words, it's an attitude thing. As human beings we hold different people to different standards based on emotional attachments and personal qualms. Sticking to the BSA standards keeps the playing field level.

Rooster7 is correct. If it seemed I was saying that even if he couldn't do the skill but did his best he passes. Not at all. He has to do the skill but at his own level of performance. He doesn't have to tie the knot as fast as someone else can, or with a specific piece of line, or behind his back. He just needs to tie the square knot. If he can't, don't sign the book. Once you sign the book you cannot re-test him. Give him opportunities to practice and use his skill.

Actually neither the official scouting literature or meritbadge.com, say "the Board of Review can not retest the scout but by talking to him can decide if he meet the requirements or not" What they do say is "The review is not an examination; the board does not retest the candidate. Rather, the board should attempt to determine the Scout's attitude and his acceptance of Scouting ideals. Scout spirit is defined as living the Scout Oath (Promise) and Scout Law in a Scout's everyday life. The board should make sure that good standards have been met in all phases of the Scout's life. A discussion of the Scout Oath and Scout Law is in keeping with the purpose of the review, to make sure that the candidate recognizes and understands the value of Scouting in his home, unit, school, and community." The Boards respnsibility does not extend into asking or testing scouts on skills, only on personal growth, and in the case of advancement to a new rank to make sure all the advancement steps have been completed. The big reason for this is, to take one young man and put him in a room with 3 practical adult starngers and ask him to perform skills for them to judge is unfair to the boy. Do Your Best is not a "theory" of scouting.. it's a core belief. Good healthy discussion!

Hi again sctmom, You're right on track on alot of the topics so far, but let me see if I can clarify something you mentioned on advancement. If a SM feels a scouts behavior or participation is not scout-like then they can hold off on signing that portion of the handbook. However as far as his skill level at requirements "X,Y and Z" you need to understand two things. 1. That once the requirement has been signed in the book it is approved and there is no taking it back. If you feel that the scout has not met the requirement, don't sign the book. but remember, the scout does not have to meet anyones expectation of performance level. They are required only to do thier best. 2. The Board cannot retest the scout on his skills. They are to evaluate the boys character growth, and gather input from the scout to help evaluate the effectiveness of the troop program. I realize the "rules" of scouting are unique to what most adults encoumter in other youth programs, or even how we are used to dealing with youth at home or school, but that's what makes it scouting. We are a unique program with unique methods and program elements. This makes adult training so important. You cannot lead a scouting program using pre-concieved ideas of leadership and youth development. Bob

Right On sctmom!!!

OLdGreyEagle is right on the money! A scout becomes an Eagle immediatley on completion of his Board of Review. God forbid it should take 3 months for his Court of Honor, but if it did, then he could recieve his Eagle palms at the same time.

We are making real head way here. Some see the light and some see it they just don't realize it. 1. Neither I or the BSA said the Board cannot refuse the advancement. What has been said(as is the policy of the BSA is you can't refuse the scout the opportunity to meet with the board. 2. The BSA is very specific in its policy that NO UNIT has the authority to add to or subtract from the advancement policies or reqirements. Since the BSA specifically requires a neat appearance and the most complete and correct uniform that the scout can do" a unit CANNOT, within the the ppolicies of the BSA, demand a specific level of uniforming. It is a case-by-case basis at the determination of the Board. This is not a matter of personal opion or at all gray area stuff. this is in clear print in the Advancement Policies and Procedures manual.

The advancement recognition processed is designed to recognize each boy 3 times.(Can we recognize positive accomplishments of young people too often? I don't think so) First-when he completes the requirements. This could be a hardy handshake in front of the other scouts during the closing portion of the meeting. Second time, as soon as we can get the rewards in our hands, (this is hopefuly by the next meeting). The third time is at the quarterly Court of Honor (here they are presented with the decorative record card, unless they have just completed the advancement within the last couple of weeks, and you just got the award in to give him with the card. This process works with any advancement includiing merit badges.