Bob White

A little scout trivia. If I remember the calculations correctly, a scout would need to be Eagle by his 13th year and 3rd month in order to earn the maximum number of Palms (4-silver, 1-gold, 1-bronze). That would leave 3 merit badges (currently) for which he would not recive a palm (not a cluster of 5) however he could still earn all the badges. It has happened.

I'l take a stab at the guide to safe scouting topic. I agree that the guide is growing and beco0ming mor detailed. I'm not sure that is a bad thing, and I'm not sure it has to do with low rate of unemployment among lawyers. The problem as I see it is the size and scope of our program. We have thousands of volunteers. Most of the contents of the Guide to Safe Scouting boil down to using common sense. The problem is that common sense isn't common.

A question comes to mind. Is every employee of the ACLU a union member, or are they "at will" employees serving at he unfettered discretion of their employers?

Thursday night Commissioners Corner, Friday night Blue and Gold guest speaker, Saturday AM Cub Leader Traing, Saturday afternoon through Sunday morning troop campout with my son, Sunday afternoon Friends of Scouting Presentation, Monday Troop Meeting, Tuesday Friends of Scouting Presentation, Wednesday Key Three meeting, Thursday Cub Roundtable, Friday and Saturday off, Sunday Eagle Court of Honor, Monday Troop Meeting...... I like the turn this thread has taken!!

scoutdad, Couldn't those Cubs who have not completed the AOL, stay and work on it since they do not meet the eligibility requirements to be a Boy Scout. They could stil come on a couple of campouts as guests of the troop or as cubs with their parent, in order to prepare for summercamp. My concern is what is the scout learning? If he has so little interest in advancement in cubs, what will suddenly get him interested in Boy Scout advancement. What about his readiness for scouts? Those last months to AOL are supposed to prepare him to join the troop at an early age. Without that training he is ill-equipped developmentally to be comfortable in Boy Scouts. I would disagree that being in on the name selection and creating a yell is the Patrol Method at its best. Boys leading boys is probably a better measure. Why not have the Boy Scouts visit the Webelos and emphasize the importance of Doing Your Best and achieving the AOL so that you can join the troop as soon as possible. Boys join existing patrols all the time and do just fine, but bringing them into the program prematurely seems high risk.

Remember the February crossover deadline is purely self-imposed by individual leaders or units not the BSA. The Webelos program says that they can go to scouting upon leaving the 5th grade, turning 11 years old, or, 10 1/2 and AOL. Nowhere does it say in February. If the schedule of the Den does not coincide with the Blue and Gold then you keep going. Nothing says that that everyone has to cross together, to force the scout to cross early is not a benefit for the boy merely a convenience for the adults. I'm curious as to what changes you think would help?

Yes I believe a leader is compelled to serve the scouts in their den to the best of their ability. If that means staying on till the end of the den members ime in cubs, so be it. I agree the parents have a responsibility to get the scouts to the meetings and have an interest in their advancement. I also see it (and I am not suggesting in any way that this was not done)to be the WDL responsibility to make the required time committment clear at the very beginning to the parent, and to keep the parent informed as to the scouts progress in order to insure the boy's success. Had It been said early on that the den only met twice a month I would have expected some if not most the cubs to not get AOL. That is a very limited time frame to get all the work completed. Weekly meetings, excluding the pack meeting week would have given the boys another 15 meetings of program (about the same time the leader would have to spend after the February cross-over if their cubs weren't ready to go into scouts). I guess I'm trying to say that we should do everything possible to get parent involvement, and that it rests largely on our attitude and communication early on with the families. If the scout isn't at the meetings there is little we can do. But if he is there, everything we do should be leading to his timely advancement. I would hope we can all agree on that.

Sctmom and scoutdad, I realize that not all units are the same, but the program elemnets are a constant. There problems with graduating Webelos all at once whether or not they have AOL. First off not all scouts advance at the same time sometimes due to missing a few meetings because illness or family conflicts. It is unfair to move them into scouts while thay still have eligibility in Cub Scouts without the chance to earn the awards their friends have earned. The other problem is that without the AOL, alot of these cubs are not eligible for scouts. They would be required to wait for the end of the 5th grade school year or their 11th birthday whichever came first. As far as the the leaders not wanting to stay a few extra months till the end of the school year...let me be as delicate as I can here...TOUGH. They volunteered to help children grow not to serve time and bug out. They are still registered leaders of the den and they still have boys to serve. It needs to be explained to them at the start of Webelos,that their responsibility to these cubs does not end until they are all successfully crossed over, or the end of the 5th grade year. Sctmom, The Webelos advancement program differs largely from the Wolf and Bear in that the Webelos Den leader is largely responsible for approving advancement. The extended time period of 2 years for Webelos is to allow the Den Leader to schedule in the needed activities for acheiving AOL. This is usually accomplished in 18 months, allowing the cub to get his AOL and cross-over to scouting in February or March. The weight of responsibility for reaching AOL is equally shared by the cub and the den leader. It's a partnership that everyone, including the parents, need to understand as soon as they join Webelos. A scout who attends weekly den meetings should, by the content of the meeting program, be able to reach his Webelos badge and AOL in time to cross-over on time. The weekly planner in the Webelos Leader Handbook will help. As far as the boys not wanting to push for AOL and just wanting to have fun. Don't all boys join scouting to have fun? Isn't it our responsibility as leaders to see that they have fun as they participate in an organized set of activities designed to advance them as they play? Bob

I'm no Psychologist, and I don't play one on TV, but I have some experience with scout age kids. I've seen kids handle stress in some pretty strange ways. Change, like leaving the known world of cubbing and joining the unknown world of Boy Scouts can be very stressfull. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to find out that your scouts are apprehensive about growing up and are showing this through their attitude. Try getting them more contact with a Boy Scout and a scout leader at the troop they would be most likely to join. If they felt there was a friendly face or two waiting to help them make the transition, they might relax a little. Just a thought. Bob

I don't disagree sctmom, although I will point out that part of requirement 4 includes backpack cooking as well. I was addressing the original question of "what basic equipment was needed". I'm sure with all of our varied experience we could fill a patrol box or two with cooking supplies, however the MB can be completed with far less. I also agree with getting a pro chef to come give a demo. You can get some great tips on simple but unique meals.

Don't think that because it's backpack cooking that you are limited to Dehydrated foods. There are alot of other foods that lend themselves to backpacking. Characteristics you look for are: nutritional value, durability while packed, minimal packaging, correct portions, and ability to maintaion freshness. For the most part backpack menus are designed for no more than 2 persons. Items such as fresh eggs, milk and raw meat rarely lend themselves to this situation. But dried meats, grainsand many fresh fruits and vegetables. work quite well, as do dehydrated foods. I enjoy base camp cooking as well, such as dutch oven (by the way there are back pack oveds that work with lightweight stoves) and novelty cooking like a Roast wrapped in wax paper and laid in the coals, or meals cooking in a cardboard box oven. My original comments were based on my impressions from the cooking Merit Badge requirements which seem to me to lean toward backpacking. Bob

Hi yarrow, What basic equipment you need depends really on the type of camping you want to teach. The Cooking requirement mention lightweight soves and packing out garbage so I perceive that they are leaning toward backpack cooking. This would certainly be a more adventurous way to go. However if you want to include heavier style base camp methods there is room for that as well. I'll let others go into base camp cooking and just give you my ideas on the specific items to complete the merit badge. You'll need *a Food Pyramid to teach the basic groups and to guide the scouts in menu planning. *a lightweight camp stove for food prep *Reference books on one pot and backpack recipes (several good ones are available at your Council Service Center or local book stores) * one-quart pots for cooking * Water *Freeze dried food examples *Zip Lock bags and Squeeze tubes to demonstrate repackaging to eliminate glas, metal and rigid packaging. *Biodegradable soap for hands and dishes *Lightweight, durable eating utensils *food for demos *menu planners *transportation to a local store to sample pricing Again you can also demeonstrate base camp cooking however the merit badge requires only backpack methods. Have fun at camp, Bob

Yarrow is correct. The pack retains the boys memberships as Webelos for the rest of the school year, or their 11th birthday, or until they complete their Arrow of Light. Whichever happens first. The best case scenario is for the Webelos Den Leaders to give full concentration to these scouts to get them to complete AOL and give them a proper send off into Boy Scouting. Nothing says that crossovers only happen once a year or only during Blue and Gold. These boys are high risk for dropping out unless they are given immediate attention. Bob

Sorry about getting side tracked on the Laser tag thing. Here are some comments back on target. Here is what we do in my son's troop where I am one of two ASMs assigned to the New Scout Patrols. 1. At crossover the boys receive Red Shoulder Tabs Troop Numerals Troop Neckerchief Boy Scout Neckerchief Slide (we encourage the Packs to give a Boy Scout Handbook) 2. At their first troop meeting they Selected a Patrol Name Elected the first month's Patrol Leader Completed The requirements for Scout Badge Recieved their Scout Badge 3. 1 week later was their first campout where they Completed Tote'n'Chip Made their own 8' length of rope on a rope machine Learned how to whip rope Had their first cooking lesson Took their first scout hike 4. Last troop meeting we held troop elections and they were assigned their Troop Guides and recieved their Patrol medallions 5. Next week is their first Court of Honor where their families will be welcomed into the troop, they will be recognized again for earning the Scout Badge. Their parents will recieve a special award for attending their first campout. (by the way 3 of the dads signed on as Assistant Scoutmasters during the campout. We will swear in the Patrol Leader and Assistant and present them their badge of office. 6. The following week is a meeting with the new scouts, and their parents, where we will teach them about packing for a campout and how to select and purchase camping gear. 7. Then for the next year the Troop Guides, with our supervision, will pick a skill or two each month and work with the scouts with a plan to complete First Class by the end of the first year. We have found that with this level of activity and frequent rewards that the boys stay very active and keep excellent attendance. In the last several years I have only had one scout quit before the end of the year. Hope this helps, Happy Scouting, Bob

I agree with jmcquillan and others who emphasize "keep it simple" and "stay within the BSA policies". So many of the topics mentioned by others are already covered in the Scout handbook and other manuals. We have always shared lots of info with parents such as calendar dates, budget and finances, rosters etc. in our newslwetters. In 26 years as a unit leader the only "rules" we needed were behavior rules set by the PLC. It is reviewed and revised every 6 months as troop leadership changes. It's always between 10 and 15 bulleted lines that carry a very easy to remember discipline. Violate a rule and you will not be allowed to return to a meeting until your parents meet with the Scoutmaster and Committee chair. Everything else we needed is in the Boy Scout Handbook.

I'm no lawyer by any stretch of the imagination, but unless our high school civics teachers lied to us... No foriegn government or organization has the power to make laws that supercede our own, within the boundaries of our own country. United Nation referendums are simply governments agreeing to agree. They are only binding as long as the individual governments choose to continue to abide by them. But, they do not constitute law within our country until they are made law by local, state or federal government.

Scoutruud, I'm guessing you meant hypocrytical not hypothetical. I realize that the European programs differ from the U.s program. But, nearly every country that has scouting has program differences from every other. I don't feel it would apprppriate for U.S. scouters to determine what is right or wrong about your country's program. The controling body of volunteers for the Boy Scouts of America (the National Executive Board have identified, through input from other volunteer committes within scouting, beliefs or activities that they feel are not in keeping with the goals and methods of our program. The fact that our programs differ does not make either one right or wrong, merely different. This is an on going debate within the governing bodies of the BSA. Our movement is constantly evaluting how we do what we do. Although it is doubtfull that our stand on homosexuality or athiesm will ever change, we continue to discuss it. Its Trail Day, I think if you talked to your local professional staff you will find you are in error. Youth and adult members who avow to be homosexual or athiest are indeed removed from membership. it is not a local council option. The reason you have never heard of it happening is due to a strict adherence to a policy of confidentiality. This policy is to protect the privacy of the individual and to provide legal protection to the program. You only hear of these situations when the former member (or more likely thewir lawyer) inform the media of their removal. Do we as an organization discriminate? Absolutely. But before you get all fired up, you need to remember that there is 'discrimination' and 'illegal discrimination'. Discrimination is defined as determining the difference between characteristics of good and bad. Someone who can tell good wine from a bad wine has a discriminating taste. In the BSA we discriminate between actions and beliefs which we feel meet the Aims and metods of our program and those that interfere. The Supreme Court of the United States has upheld the determination that private organizations have a right of free assosiation, and that limiting membership by identifying the characteristics and behavior for members in our organization is not a violation of anyone's rights or is it illegal discrimination. The only argument left is "is this a moral desicion". Morality, as we have proven through these many posts, varies by individual. We cannot be all things too all people. Instead, in order to maintain a consistant vision within the program we have chose a particular core set of beliefs. We make no secret of what they are. Individuals who disagree are not required to join. Once a decision is made to join an acceptance of these core values are required, otherwise one must question your reason for joining.

I agree with eisley. I see nothing in the gude to Safe Sccouting that prohibits Laser Tag. My concern is that it really doesn't teach or test a scout skill. I guess you could argue that it meets an aim of scouting by helping scouts to be physically fit, but I can think of alot of scout activities that meet that particular aim better. I guess I would run it past the parents and if it they didn't have a problem with the activity I would use it on a very limited basis.

FYI Don't count on the DE removing the Cubmaster. Unless an unit volunteer misuses children or unit funds professionals have no authority. Unit leaders are selected and approved by Charter Organizations and only they have the authority to take such action.

Using teachers is a great way to go. Most are very willing to use any tool that will motivate their students. We have used teachers for all the fitness related MB, all the sciences, Arts, Reading, Academic and Citizenship badges. Most junior high students can get 6 to 7 merit badges a year just by doing their schoolwork and meeting a few extra times with their teachers.

sctmom, Normally a sufficient grace period is given to allow the scout to either complete the requirements as listed in his current handbook or to use the new requirements as publications are updated and distributed. My recommendation would be to visit http://www.meritbadge.com and download the new requirements. include them in your sons handbook or even edit the handbook to match the new requirements. The reason I recommend using the new requirements is that one of the old First Class requirements has been removed and moved to the Swimming Merit Badge.

PS There is no registration fee for MB counselors. (no insurance coverage, no scouting magazine etc.)

Mom Scouter, For the most part when a troop is operating using the Patrol Method, the scoutmaster will be the most influential of the program leaders, only because it is the Scoutmaster that trains the scouts and the Scoutmaster who helps the SPL develop the PLC agenda and who sits in on the PLC meeting. The primary role of the committee is support the decision of the scouts. This does not exclude input from other adults, but it would be a good idea to filter these sugeestions through the SM. The reason for this is so that the boys do not get mixed messages or feel that they are being overwhelmed by adult directions. When suggestions are made direct to the scouts it should be through the proper channels, (for instance) recommendations on equipment should go through the adult equipment coordinator to the troop QM to the PLC.

Hi sctmom, Merit Badge counselors can be recruited through the didtrict to work with all scouts or through the unit. The counselor recruited through the unit can choose to only counsel the scouts from that particular unit or can choose to counsel scouts on a very limited basis. The counselor must be 18 years of age or older and have sufficient skills or knowledge in the area(s) that he or she counsels. Counselors can do more than one merit badge and scouts can use the same counselor more than once. It is within the policies and regulations for a parent with appropriate skills to counsel their own son (units do not have the authority to alter this rule). However, it is better to use someone outside the unit adults whenever possible. Part of the personal growth that goes with merit badges comes from the scout making contact with the MB expert. MOST IMPORTANTLY-All MB counselors must be registered withthe BSA. Use a standard adult registration form (some councils have an additional form to complete). The Counselor must read and sign the registration. Be sure to follow the youth protection policies when a scout is meeting with a counselor. Information on Merit badges and other advancement can be found in the 'Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures' manual available at your council service center.

Terry, I am still unable to edit my posts within the first hour. I click on the edit icon and I am sent to an edit screen. Once I make my corrections and select the edit message line I recieve a screen telling me I am not authorized to edit this screen. Bob