Bob White

As far as asking dampcamper what the SM did that demonstrates he or she clearly should not be in charge...I implore dampcamper not to discuss that on a forum. If Dampcamper's opinion is correct then the CCand CR will hopefully handle things in a calm and confidential manner in removing the SM. If Dampcamper is wrong then to share that gossip on the forum would not be appropriate. I have PMd BadenP as he requested. But I all I said was that I have not and will not do the name calling and personal insults that he has used toward me. I explained that if he disagrees then he should show some evidence to back up what he states as fact. He says he was a professional scouter for almost 6 years, if so then he should have a better understanding of the resources of the BSA than anyone here, and he should share those references rather than just say that I am wrong becasue of what he used to be. I would hope that posters and readers have far more interest in what the BSA "IS" than in what any of us "used to be".

NJ I have not attacked anyone, we have posters who are imagining problems that have yet to happen (thats's fantasizing), in a program that is just being released, that they know little to nothing about, that has been fiield tested with excellent results. Some of these are the same scouters who don't like a uniorm that they have yet to see ion person. It's just silly to suggest problems that do not exist in a program they have yet t see or try.

I did not ask if you were related to the scouts I asked.."Do you enjoy the activity of scouting with the youth you serve? Do you encourage them to attend, participate, and achieve? In fact I would ask the same question of jblake.

I would think that if you had knowledge of any BSA resources that contradicted what I posted you would be thrilled to have shared it publicly. You keep claiming what I post is wrong and yet despite your professional experience you have yet to show any evidence. Also since you used to be a professional I would have expected you to have a fair amount of respect for what the BSA policies and procedures actually are. In every post I have tried to bring you back to the topic, if you feel that I have given inaccurate information then share with us the BSA evidence. Of the few posters who have said I was wrong you most of all should have the ability to prove it...and yet... (This message has been edited by Bob White)

What about the fact that I never posted that??? What I wrote was the "CC and CR represent the Charter organization". I did not say they were a part of the CO. As someone who claims to have been a professional for almost 6-years you cannot deny that is a fact. Being that "you used to be" a professional I would have expected you to be one of the first to either agree that what I wrote was accurate....Oh wait...You did agree that what I wrote was technically accurate. So why now are you saying that it isn't? And why have you not identified a single BSA resource to substantiate your claim. Of all the other posters on this forum who should know what the resources of the BSA are and where information can be found in the official resources certainly it would be someone who was almost 6 years working at the District level...and yet! (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I am all for discussing the program, but lets deal with what we actually know and stop fantasizing about what might happen.

No NJ I am trying to get to the facts. So you have yet to see the materials that the councils will be distributing oin this new program, you are unaware of the results of the two year field test, you have not seen the program at work. Yet you already foresee problems just recuiting someone to be the coordinator? In fact the only thing you have seen are some positive but benral staements on the purpose of the program and you are already concerned about it? I do not understand your fear of things that have not happened yet, especially about things you admit you have no knowledge of.

Pack15nissan Except for this requirement has the Scout been achieving other advancement requirements?

So if I understand your post you have no data, no references, no substantiation...just the impression that if you insult me enough that it will make you right? I have never said that the BSA never made mistakes, in fact I have pointed some out in the past. I never ever claimed I was perfect, but I least when I give a personal opinion I say that it is an opinion. You stated a "fact" and yet you have no evidence whatsoever to support it. I ask for your proof and you instead offer personal insults. That is not a very convincing or skillfull way to support your opinion on the matter. So getting back to your knowledge from when you used to be a professional. What if anything that I shared was not accurate with the policies and procedures of the BSA...not what part don't you personally agree with...but what if anything was factually incorrect? And remember I am likely to ask you for actually BSA resources to support you answer so be prepared!

So NJCubScouter are we to understand that you have not seen any of the print material from your council yet? yes, or no?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

So jblake is GW correct? Is that the phrase that is fueling parental phobia for the two of you? So GW...Do you not enjoy the activity of scouting with the youth you serve? Do you not encourage them to attend, participate, and achieve?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"abuses of the system are becoming much more frequent and more serious in nature" That is a fascinating claim BadenP Please share your data and references with us now that you have offered the statement as fact.

"And how is the ScoutParents program different from the Parent Coordinator committee position? " Well for one thing, one is the entire program, the other is a position within the program. How was that unclear to anyone? You have yet to address a single element shared with you from the Scouts Parent document and explained how it would negatively impact the scout unit. I will share them again for thsoe who have forgotten it. "ScoutParent A ScoutParent is a parent or adult mentor of a Scout who enthusiastically participates with their Scout and also helps other volunteers to provide the best quality program experience to all youth in every unit. A ScoutParent: Leads their family in obtaining the values, benefits, experiences and rewards from their familys Scouting participation, and in sharing these with others; Enjoys participating with his or her Scout and inspires their child to persevere in Scouting with their tenure, activity participation and achievement; Helps enhance youth and parent-mentor recruitment, retention, enthusiasm, commitment and participation in the passionate GREAT Family FUN of Scouting!; and Helps Make It SO! So where is the harm in any of those elements??? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Its a forum It's Me, not a manual. Rather than a long and ambiguous explanation as some may be prone to, would you not prefer getting direct answers with specific resources given? Or, would you prefer unsupported personal opinions from people whose knowledge and background are unkown and unproven to you? Ask a Scouting question, get a Scouting answer. Seems like the most trustworthy, helpful, friendly and courteous thing to do, doesn't it? I am sorry if I did not explain the procedure clearly enough. I will try again. The CC and CR determine that a volunteer is to be removed or replaced. The meet with the individual and tell them politely and calmly that they have determined the need to make a change in the unit leadership and that while they appreciate the efforts given by the volunteer, they have determined that ion the best interest of the unit the volunteer is beiong removed from his position. At this point they can offer him or her a diffrerent responsibilityy or none at all. The CR or CC then informs the Council Scout Executive of the removal, no explanation is required unless they have removed him for Youth Protection reasons. There is no appeal process. The CC then informs the committee and parents of the change in a manner that is respectful of the individual. What role does an ASM have in this process? None, other than the ability to express an opinion in a constructive manner. I hope that helps you. BW

as a forer BSA professional BNadenP you know that what I posted was not just "technically" accurate, it was correct according to the policies and procedures of the BSA. Your own story proves it. What you failed to mention was what the actions of the CR and CC were in your situation? If they supported the wishes of the IH then the procedure was followed correctly. Tell me BadenP what procedure in any system is perfect. Sometimes innocent people are found guilty are they not? Plus as you say, you saw this from the eyes of a youth, and so it is possible that there was more to the situation than you remember or were aware of.

Which is probably why the program was field tested for two years prior to being released nationally. The units that used the program should marked improvements in youth membership retention, and recruitmemnt.

Yes the Cubmaster can trump the Den Leader's decision. BUT, the CM better be ready to have another Den Leader ready to take the first ones place because odds are the first one is going to quit. Communication and training is the a better solution. The CM and the Dl need to sit together and look at what the BSA advancement policies and procedures say. This should not be about who is right but about a mutually agreement to follow the BSA program, and it os the BSa that determines the BSA program, NOT the CM or the DL.

Having an opinion is easy, having an informed opinion takes effort that some posters seem unwilling to invest. Where is you evidence that the ScoutParents program has any of the elements that you seem so concerned over? You have yet to identify a single fact about the program that is related to your phobias. You were provided with the definition you sought, and yet you have avoided addressing a single element from it or explain how it would be devastating to what you view as the scouting program.

You are correct GNX on page 114 of the Sea Scout Manual, The adult dress uniforms are limited to 6 knots and 5 medals above the left pocket.

"Boy Scouting is not a family organization" I think that is a terribly short sited view. I don't think anyone can deny that parents can play a very inportant role in a scouts level of poarticipation, his attendance, his advancement, his embrcing and application of scouting values. The ScoutParnets program is an effort to make sure that these influences are positive rather than negative. I assk again, due too your failure to respond, What specific element(s) of the passage I shared from the ScoutParents Orientation Guide do you see as harmful to scouting or to a unit program. Where does it say that the Scoutparents are involved in taking over youth responsibilities? Where does it duggest that the parents are to take over Scoutmaster responsibilities. Your fears seem firmly based on things that the ScoutParents program isn't about, and you are ignoring what it tells you it is.

Actually I did that in the very first post. In the opening paragraph of this thread I gave two references The Boy Scout Handbook, and the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual, a few posts later I added the Unit Money Earning Application. I believe you will find those three resources will cover all the questions.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

In that case the ASM has one option and that is to share his concern with the person responsible for selecting the CR and CC and that is the Institutional head of the charter organization. Just as the CR and CC have authority over the other volunteers, the IH has autority over the CR and CC. But NONE on the Council/District level have authority over any volunteer in the unit unless there is the violation of BSA policies involved. Remember that the unit is OWNED by the charter organization, which is represented by the CR and CC. They can have as good, OR as a bad, a unit as they choose to have. If they choose to have a bad unit then the ASM can only choose to stay or leave, but has no authority to make change.

GW You have perhaps forgotten that "Scouting" is not just Boy Scouting, but is a growth process that begins at age 7 in Cub Scouiting. Is it your opinion that growing and learning and having a positive relationship with your parents is mutually exclusive? Do you have evidence that Scouting does not do the positive things mentioned in the passage you selected? Do you believe that developing a positive relationship with ones parents is not a part of growing and learning?

Neil-up Let's return to the original post and the question that is asked by an Assistant Scoutmaster. "What is the procedure to remove a Scoutmaster that clearly does not belong in charge." He did not ask for counsel, he asked for the procedure. And what is that Procedure Neil-up? According to the BSA, and please show evidence to the contrary if you disagree with any of these points. The CC and CR would have to decide that the scoutmaster need to be removed, They would have to remove or replace him, then they are asked to inform the Scout executive of their action. What role does an ASM play in this procedure? At the most, the ASM can share his opinion with the CC and CR so that they know what issues may exist. Where in this procedure does the district have a responsibility or authority? Where in this procedure of removing a volunteer is counseling with anyone other than the volunteer in question be advisable? Where in this process should the BSA insert seeking counseling from strangers on the Internet? The procedure that dampcamper asked about is simple, Only the CCand CR can remove a volunteer at the unit level, so unless thay take such action the volunteer will remain in their position.

My advice...stay out of this. Until the scout meets the joining requirements for the troop this is not something you should get involved in. Advise the parent to seek help from the District Commissioner or the District Executive.