Bob White

The BSA did at one time produce Cub Scout Boy Scout and eagle Scout rings, I believe they also had an Explorer ring. Unfortunately low sales halted production. I know of know one else who makes one. I'm presuming that you did your own extensive search on the internet as many of us probably have, and come up with the same results. You could try to have a custome one made or as suggested in another string, contact the makers of high school and college rings to see if they can make one. $$$$$ Bob

Unless the counselor checked that they would counsel any scout AND you notified the District Advancement Committee, it is unlikely that the counselor would appear on the District's list. is your counselor legit? probably yes. A follow-up call to your council office to verify they received the application would be a good idea. Also, keep copies of the paperwork you sent in. Bob

Not wanting to be oversensitive, but I think I have the right to defend the "scouting according to Bob " comment. everything I have said is from the resources of the BSA. I have given book and page references as part of my discussion. I see few others doing so. Everything I've presented is the official program, which is available to any volunteer through a variety of official sources. As I say it's not scouting just because you wear a scout uniform. Scouting is the implementation of the methods of scouting to achieve the aims of scouting. Secondly, let's not forget that a major way we gained our common sense was from the errors we mad as we grew. If you do not allow the scouts to make their own decisions and learn from them you delay the learning process. According to the scouting program (not scouting by Bob) the time to step in is when someone could be injured or if a law of the community or scouting would be violated. Otherwise teach them good decision making BUT don't make decisions for them. That is scouting!

Patrol outings without adults does not require iur consensus. It is an element of scouting adventure that is promised to the scoouts in every Official Boy Scout Handbook, and has been since the beginning of the movement. The question remains (and it is the same question asked at the opening of Scoutmaster, Assistant Scoutmaster job specific training) "Are you keeping the promise?"

Tour permits are not required unless motorized vehicles are involved.

The Boy Scout Handbook promises scouts that if the adventure of patrol activities. The handbook goes on to say that with the permission of the SMand parents or guardisns the patrol (not a troop) can do these hikes, camps,and activities, "on their own" which means without adult supervision. Patrol activitities were a big part of my youth days in scouting and is a tool I have used with patrols for over 25 years. The key is in the training and planning prior to the activity. I will share what we have used and am curious as to how many others have had patrol activities without adults. by the way we have never had a safety or behavior problem on any patrol activity. As I said the key is in the training and planning. The PLC is told of the opportunity as offered in the BSA handbook. We then asked them to create their own guidelines for such an activity. Here is what they came up with. > Activities can be a single day or an overnighter of no more then one night. > The destination must be within a days hike or bike ride from the patrol leaders home. > All scouts in the patrol must be first class or over > all scouts in the patrol must exhibit scout-like behaviour for the patrol to qualify. > a written plan approved by the SM and SPL must be submitted. > The plan must include * the purpose for the outing (service or advancement) * There must be an emergency plan * permission from the site owner or controlling authority if applicable. * a travel plan showing routes to and from and location of activity site. * written permission from parent or guardian acknowledging that they know no adults will be present. * specific list of gear to be drawn from quartermaster. * who is going/ who is in charge > SM and SPL had the option to approve the plan without leaders or to approve plan providing two deep leadership was within eyesight. Because of the rules (set by the PLC)and the amount of planning required not all patrols qualified and not all patrols went every 6 months. The ones that did usually only did 1 or 2 outings every 6 months. The big payoff was the amount of growth that scouts gained from this activity; planning skills, advancement motivation, leadership opportunities, character development. The best junior leaders we had came from patrols that planned their own events. By the time a scout got elected to SPL he understood planning and responsibility. The scouts often elected the PL who had the best patrol activities to SPL. Patrol activities is where real scouting takes place. Troop meetings are where they learn. the Patrol Method is where they DO. Bob

keeping up-to-date District Merit Badge Counselor lists is difficult. There are 119 merit badges and the MB counselor registrations must be renewed annually. You're right that ScoutNet, the new national data base, is not ready to do this. (it has so many bugs that even the Orkin Man couldn't fix it). If you have the time and inclination, helping to build and maintain a Troop MB counselor list would no doubt be welcomed by the troop committee and scoutmaster. There are 2 forms required to be filled out by each MB counseor. A standard adult membership application (no joining fee) and a MB counselor form. On the MB form a counselor can select to only counsel to your troop, or to be available to any scout in the district. If they are willing to help district-wide you could notify the District advancement chair. I'm sure they would appreciate it. Thanks for helping. Bob

Why not ask drivers to show you a current drivers license and proof of insurance? That's what is required on the tour permits. Unless you have specific knowledge of a an adult being dangerous behind the wheel, then you could simply arrange enough transportation to where it would not be required that they drive. Bob

Good exchange of opinion. I think we are really working to the core of the issue here. For instance. There is nothing vague about the bold print policies in the Guide to Safe Scouting. The example raised by fscouter is right in line with what I'm saying "get training first". The Guide tells you you need two deep adult leadership in troop activities with some exceptions such as patrol activities where no adult leadership is required. Fscouter, the guide is very exact, you either need two adults or no adults! Here is how the patrol method has worked since the beginning of the program. A troop is not divided into patrols..patrols come together to form a troop. The Patrol is the basic element of scouts. Patrols are boy lead, as such if you read page-20 of the Official Boy Scout Handbook it says "with the permission of your Scoutmaster and your parent or guardian, your patrol may go on its own to camp, hike, and conduct special projects". "On its own" means without adults. This does not mean multiple patrols can go, for when patrols gather that is a troop and the BSA says that a minimum of two adults must accompany a troop. "Train them, Trust them, Let them lead" Lord Robert Stephenson Baden-Powell. Lets look at Adult committees making "policies". On page 13 of the Troop Committee Guide. There ia a specific list of the 12 duties of a troop committee. None of the responsibilities require any written policies other than those few which are already covered by the BSA in either policy or program recommendations. Should boys dictate rules to adults (yes, actually they can in some cases, remember it's thier program, the PLC makes the decisions that the control the troop and patrol). The scoutmasters #1 job is to train junior leaders, if you feel your scouts cannot lead you need to look at what is being done to teach them. "if the learner hasn't learned, then the teacher hasn't taught". Should the committee dictate rules to the boys, not beyond the scope of their responsibilities as outlined in the Troop Committee Guide and explained during New Leader Essentials and The Troop Committee Challenge. Get trained first! Would I let a troop stay up until 3 A.M. it depends. The PLC would have to submit a program plan. What will they be doing? How will it benifit others? What Aims of scouting would be met through their activity? (I think they would have trouble defending a 3 a.m. decision, but they would learn from the experience of decision making. Hey, it's a free country, micro-manage all you want if that's your kick. But keep in mind that is not the Scouting program and there is difference between Scouting and doing things in a scout uniform. Post bullets of your final policy plan, we would all like to see your choices. I hope after you attend training you realize what a tiny list it would be. Bob

Fscouter, Huh? Are you sure you want to tell a parent (assuming that you know of know illegalities)that they cannot drive their own child to an event? The local tour permits are only for adults transporting children other then their own. The Bar-b-que is not a required troop committee training. The requirements for Troop Committee members to be certified as trained and wear the Trained badge is, the 90-minute New Leader Essentials course followed by the 3-hour Troop Committee Challenge course. Fast Start, which has recently been revamped is available as a training tool but is not part of the new basic training curriculum. This is my point precisely. Units are setting rules without first knowing the program. This is supposed to be as fun for the adults as the boys. The committees only task is to support the program decisions of the boys. If you are writing all these rules to make the program run smoother then you picked the wrong program. boy Scouts was never meant to run smooth. It is a training ground for boys to experiment with real leadership and part of that process is they need to make some mistakes. The program has "policies" to cover three areas; Youth Protection/Safety, Advancement, and Uniforming. We have program methods that define the scouting program. Other than that the program is fairly loosely defined because it needs to be flexible for the boys to develop it as they learn to lead. Your committee needs its flexibility to respond to the decisions of the current PLC. Some of the items on your list should be decided by the boys not the committee. Other points have already been decided by the BSA and is covered in job specific training. Consider before you start writing rules that everyone attend training. Then at least you will have a common knowledge base to operate from.

Ozemu, Just to clarify a point. the reason the few behaviour rules are reviewed every 6-months is because we do troop elections every 6 months so the PLC changes in membership. Since the establishment of the rules comes from the PLC each new group has the opportunity to reveiw and revise as they see fit. It has far less to do with moral training and more to do with leadership and citizenship training. Doesn't the current legislature have the power to reveiw and revise existing laws set by previous legislatures?

NJscouter is absolutely correct. As long as you meet all the requirements in your handbook, and you act in a scoutlike manner, the only requirements you have to meet are in your handbook. I respectfully sugest that before you have to find 6 longhaired Eagles your SM needs to find ONE current scout handbook that has hair length as an Eagle requirement. PS. You or your parents should contact the local District Executive or District Commissioner for assistance.

ba-dad, If your description of the situation is accurate, you need to contact your committee chair and ask for the Den Leader to be removed immediately or move your son to a new den or pack. To change this behavior is not a simple task and takes far to much time for you to leave your son in such an environment. This is abusive behavior and has nothing to do with scouting. Thank you for understanding that this is not proper behavior in scouts and for being concerned about this kind of "leadership". Please consider becoming your son's den leader. You will find, after attending a half day of training, that there are great printed resources that outline your meetings and lots of positive people around to help you do the job right. Bob

evmori, The Guide to Safe Scouting has both "policy" and "guidelines" in it. If you notice there are two type faces used in the guide, normal and bold face. Anything printed in Bold letters is BSA policy and is not open to local interpretation. Guidelines or recommendations (regular type), are recommendations based on successful use in other units and test programs. Violation of policy can negate a leaders liability protection as well as their BSA membership. When planning a scout activity, adults and junior leaders should consult the guide to make sure all aspects of related BSA policy are followed.

eisly, Doesn't the Patrol Leaders Council determine a troops program in Boy Scouts? That's what it say's in the Boy Scout Handbook, the Scoutmaster Handbook, the Troop Committee Guide, and the Junior Leader Handbook, not to mention every training course in Boy Scouts. Why not just say to the dad "That's not our decision, thats why it's called Boy Scouts not Adult Scouts." The role of the troop committee according to every resource in scouting is to support the boys decisions not make them. National's goal today is 100% trained adults. Your local training team can show you how this program has all the paperwork and rules you need without needing to come up with more.

Sorry, make that "nowhere" not "know where", the editing feature is still not working for me.

KoreaScouter, The BSA does require a full uniform. They just don't require it to join. But know where does the BSA say "wear jeans if you want" or "you can wear something that looks alot like a scout uniform, that's OK" If scouters and scouts units set local rules in spite of the uniform policies, how will saying you need to have the uniform when you join be any different? The quickest, most effective way to promote correct uniforming? Local units and volunteers need to wear the correct uniform-set the right example-stop making lame excuses to not wear the official uniform.

Now you can also add the Tiger cub year to the Cub Scout years and just wear a 5yr Cub star. Don't look at it as starting over, it's not, it is continuing his religious service but at a laevel in keeping with his personal growth.

fscouter, You raise some very good points. most of which are covered by the BSA in; the troop committee training, Troop Committee Challenge; The scoutleader training, Scoutmaster Asst. Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training; the budget training video, The Ideal Year of Scouting; the youth protection manual, The Guide to Safe Scouting, and in the policy manual, Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures. I highly recommend that evryone first get trained and learn the program before they write local rules that could be conflict. About the only two points that are not already covered specifically by the bsa but are covered indirectly are ... Q.To what degree can the committee do business outside of the regular business meeting? A. The Troop Committee is not a legal entity. It is a subcommittee of it's charter organization. as such it is not bound by the open meetings act. Any adult is free to act in the best interest of the scouts as long as the resources of the troop are not used inappropriately and they are keeping the Committee Chair or Scoutmaster informed. Q. May a person with a revoked drivers license drive their own son to a meeting. A. Hasn't your Secretary of State already made that decison? Hasn't it already been determined that for this person to be operating a vehicle is a danger to the public? In our role as participating citizens do we not have a responsibility to the scout as well as to the community to report this individual to the authorities? I'm curious as to how often this happens that a unit needs a standing policy to address it!

I do not know of a web site for Tooth of Time Traders (the Philmont trading post) They do have a catalog which is available when you visit. You might try contactiing the camp and ask if they would mail the catalog.

I can tell you that BP used "Be Prepared at Brown Sea Island. He would yell "Be Prepared"! and the scouts would yell in response "We are Prepared"! I don't know where BP got it from.

An Excellent question, and and area that is often misunderstood. The only Cub Scout awards that can be permanently displayed on a Boy scout uniform is the Arrow of Light patch (Not the Knot)and the serive star on the yellow background. The Webelos badge may now be worn temporarily, until the Scout Badge is earned. A common mistake is the religious award. That was earned in Cubs using the Cub requirements and DOES NOT transfer to the Boy Scout Uniform. The Scout would need to earn the award as a Boy Scout under the Boy Scout requirements. The same goes for the Recruiter bar. Bob

I agree, I would like to see a lower price on the official scout uniform...and on gasoline, and property taxes, and milk, and postage stamps. Come to think of it I can't think of anything that I wouldn't be thrilled to pay less for. In the mean time I volunteered to be in the BSA and I am proud to wear the uniform from shoulder to shoes. I can't imagine my two brothers who are police officers wearing pants that look almost like their uniform pants, or a pro ball player wearing a knock-off of thier shirt just because it's cheaper. Why would anyone want to look alomst exactly like a scout instead of wearing a scout uniform. Could the uniformed be improved? Sure. I think this thread has some very good ideas. I would recommend that they be written to the uniform division at the nation service center. Here is one for consideration. I'd like to see the uniform activity pants zip-off at the knees to convert from long pants to shorts, and be made from an inexpensive quick drying fabric such as Supplex. I also agree that the wool jack-shirt needs redesigning. I really like the idea of it being deeper piled and Dark Green (bright red is not low impact). But the jacket is optional so I'm not concered about wearing a non-BSA product. All the use of military wear instead of scout uniform pants bothers me. It is a violation of uniform policy to wear military wear with the official uniform. We are teaching the scouts to follow the rules of our society. How effective can you be as a role model for that, if you can't even follow a dress code without rationalizing why the rules don't apply to you.

Mia Culpa, To to upgrade the abacus to version 3.1 Bob

One thing we do is explain to the scouts and parents from the day they join that the scout uniform consists of official shirt, pants, belt, and socks. That the only options are hat and neckerchief. We opt not to wear the hat and we provide the neckerchief and all the patches for the uniform. Where I see units getting in poor uniform habits is when they stary from BSA uniform policies. Pants for instance is not a locally controlled option. Wearing jeans with a scout uniform is no different then wearing a sweaqt shirt with scout pants. Either one is out of uniform. The purpose is not to look alike within the unit. It is to be consistant as a program. The things we are trying to teach with the uniform, like good grooming, and a sense of belonging, can't be taught as effectively in just a shirt. I don't think boy's who have not yet gotten the entire uniform should be punished but, should we lower our expectation by setting unauthorized uniform rules in the unit? Positive reinforcement for complete correct uniforming is a great idea. I laso suggest that for a court of honor you bring in a Police officer, Fire fighter, Football player, baseball player, Adult in a suit and a scout in a full and correct uniform and have them stand near each other. then have an adult in a uniform shirt with, jeans, tennis shoes, stand in line with them. You will see very quickly that there is a differnce between weaqring the scout shirt and wearing the scout uniform.