Bob White

Dedicated Dad, What are you talking about? It is not the scout who is breaking the rules here! It is the Scoutmaster. Your quote is irrelavent! The Scoutmaster has no authority-zero-none when it comes to advancement requirements. The scout needs to do what is in his Handbook. Nothing more nothing less. I challenge you to find one iota of reference to hair length in the BSA advancement program. Just one! Who cares what the troop rule is. We have already quoted chapter and verse to you that no unit or individual can add to or subtract from the advancement requirements.

I agree with andrews, it takes a program that meets the needs of the individual scout, if you expect to kepp them active beyond Eagle. The other challenge of course is keeping them after their sense of smell develops. Once a scout recognizes the attractive odors of perfume and car exhaust the challenge to keep them increases. I am always amazed by the number of troop leaders who say "Well he turns 16 this year, he'll be leaving soon". I really think that the attitude of the SM drives the program content as well as quality. if you see 16 as the end of the road then that is where your program stops as well. My son's troop is much like txscoutmom's. We have 5 active Eagles, and a patrol of 6 scouts over the age of 16. I credit this to the SM who sees the youth program ending at 18 and he works to keep it relevant to the boys all the way to that age. Not all SM can do that, so the BSA has optional programs to meet the individual interests of the older boys. It's not to punish the SM, but to help the scouts find a meaningful scouting experience that the troop may no longer offer. Bob

Since Venturing has it's own advancement program, a youth member in a venture crew would not wear the Eagle Scout rank badge. According to the Venturing Leader Manual. The manual under the heading The Venture Uniform say, "On dress up occassions such as a parents' night, open house, or awards ceremony, it is appropriate to wear awards such as the Eagle Scout, Bronze, Gold, Silver, Ranger and Quartermaster Award". The awards they are refering to are all medals. Bob

The CC authority comes from the Troop Committee guide in which the CC is selected by the Charter Executive and the COR, and whose responsibilities include the securing of trained individuals for camp leadership. In Troop operation I agree with you it is a partnership, but the CC is a senior partner in that they represent the owner/administration of the troop and the SM is the program coordinator. The CC helps in the selection and securing of the SM, not visa versa. The SM sits on the troop Committee as the program representative. The head of the troop committee is the CC. In no part of scouting does the SM have authority over the functions of the committee. The Committee has the authority to select and secure adults, The SM does not. The Committee has the authority to disburse funds, The SM does not. The Committee can overrule the SM on advancement, The SM cannot overule the committee. The Charter is held by the Charter Org, not the SM. Look at it as a church's youth choir, there is really no difference. The chior is a youth outreach function of the church just like the troop. Who has the most authority authority. The pastor of the Church? The Church Board who selected and hired the choir director. The choir director. The choir director and the SM serve at the will of the controlling committee. They are there to serve the youth. They maintain value to the organization only by meeting the needs of the organization. A choir director that only sings what he wants, when he wants, in the way he wants will soon be replaced.

Let's look at what we have here. * A fully trained leader gone awry. It is improper for the SM to use his personal tax ID unless he is a non -profit organization. I would bet he is using a resale tax exempt # from a business. Also improper. there are two tax #s that can be used. The BSA has a tax # that you can use for non personal items. You can also use your Charter organizations # if they have on. It is very improper to have sole control of the checkbook.Chapter 6, page 23 of the Troop Committee Guide, The first paragraph reads, "The recording, disbursing and budgeting of troop funds, along with unit money erning project assistance , is the responsibility of the troop committee and the treasurer. The next paragraph begins, "Every troop should have a checking account at a local bank. An account that requires Two signatures on each check, those of the committee treasurer and Scoutmaster is recommended". Later in the same paragraph. "Disbursements from the checking account are made on the recommendation of the scoutmaster with authorization from the Troop Committee. But on to the bigger issue. When it comes to the Adult volunteer hierarchy in a unit, the SM is not top dog. Second maybe? Nope! Third? Nope! Fourth? That is correct, Vanna show them what they've won. I know alot of people won't like to read this and you can argue it all you want but it won't change a thing. The top of the totem pole is the Executive Officer of the Charter Organization. Remember the unit is "owned" by the charter org. The second in control is the Charter Organization Representative. Do you recall who signs every adult application in your unit, the COR. He or she is reponsible for the selection and approval of every adult. Third is the Committee Chairperson. If your unit was set up correctly the CC was selected by the Executive officer and the Charter Rep. If that isn't the case here...it doesn't matter, the CC is third in authority. Fourth we have the Scoutmaster. The program coordinator whose tenure is renewed on an annual basis in a cooperative decision between the SM, the CC and the COR. If the COR wants to keep the SM and the SM wants to stay then we have a mutually beneficial arrangement. But make no mistake the COR can say at any time "thanks but we have decided on a change of leadership" and then the party is over. So to put it bluntly the SM serves at the will of the COR. The SM has zero authority when it comes to another volunteer's tenure. This post haas gotten long I apologize. If you would like a recommendation(that doesn't begin with "off with his head") just ask and I will reply. Bob

An 18 year old scouter asked a question in the middle of another string that never got answered, so I thought I'd throw it in here. The question was, can he were his Eagle Scout Badge now that he has turned 18? The answer is yes and no. You can were a patch that signifies you are an Eagle but it is not the rank patch. It is a red, white and blue square knot worn directly above the left hand pocket. All rank badges are for youth wear only. See the Insignia Guide for the specific location. You can also wear a red and green knot if you earned Arrow of Light in Cub Scouts. Bob

Young Blood, No volunteer has the authority to remove another volunteer, with one exception. The Charter Organization Representative can remove the unit membership from any unit volunteer or member within their unit. The Council Executive is the only local professional authority who can remove a volunteer's membership. This is usaully only done if there was a youth protection issue involved, of if unit funds were misappropriated. In the case we are discussing the commissioner or district advancement person would simply notify the parent of their right to appeal. The action would then go before the District or Council Advencement committee and they would confirm the scout has met all official requirements and grant the advancement. Leaving the scoutmaster angry at the District for doing what he should have done to begin with. The volunteers at the district and council level are charged with seeing that "every eligible youth has the opportunity to belong to a quality scout unit". We are here to help the scout and the scouter succeed. but the rules that govern the game are the rules of the BSA not the personal rules of units or individuals. Bob

Nice work slontwovvy, even my council trading post missed that. they are the ones who told me it was discontinued.

Sorry for not replying sooner, I had a Council Training Committee meeting to attend. I was however well represented in my absence. Thank you Bob Russell and Shemgren. The reason the Cub cannot go back is that the rank requirements in cubs are based in difficulty on the abilities and interests of a boy at a specific age and developmental level. The wolf rank requirements would not be the same challenge for a 9 year old as they are for a 7 year old. Therefore there is no backtracking. I hope this clarifies the rules for you tdyer 56. Please post any questions you have we will be glad to help. as Red Green say's "I'm pullin for ya, remember we're all in this together". Bob

Sorry but no. The Cub Scout advancement program is grade based. Once you pass that grade there is no going back.

Rooster7, In all due respect. I think everyone in this string has said "first find out if he knows the rules" the difference is that some, yourself included, are saying sure he's wrong, but hey! cut your hair anyway. Capitualtion, is that what we are supposed to be teaching? The "obedient" part of the scout law that is being ignored here is not being violated by the scout, but by the Scoutmaster. As participating citizens we do not "give in" to a perceived authority that violates our rights. And while I have the floor, you need to get over the idea that Council and District are higher entities. We are volunteers just like any volunteer. Only we help support dozens or even hundreds of units rather then just one. We are not bosses over the units. Those of us in Commissioner service do have a resposibility to see that local units follow policy and program regulations, and we take that charge earnestly. Bob

How about a weekend where the scouts teach camping skills to the dads. Then the scouts could run skill challenges for the dads based on what they were taught. At the campfire I would have a scout whose parent is an ASM tell the other dads what it means to him to have his parent in the program. (you might pick up some more assistants). Bob

My apologies to gregkonz and his family for having to go through this problem. I understand and appreciate the goal to keep this string positive. I cannot in good faith to the program allow some of the suggestions here go unchallenged. Why in the name of great Ceasars ghost, as Perry White (no relation) would say, are we even discussing the "dedication and countless hours" that the scoutmaster put in. Who the heck is this program for? What about the dedication and hours this young man has put in to achieve a rank that only 3% of our scouts achieve. Look if you want to form a bunch of boys into your image, then go volunteer at a cloning lab. That's not what the Scouting program is here for. This boy is being kept from a recognition he honestly earned, by an adult who thinks because he is more important can set rules that are arbitrary and improper. At this point in time I'm not convinced that this SM is unaware of the rules, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. I would ask him politely but directly if he is aware that no one can change the advancement requirements. If he says no, show him the book. If he says yes, show him the door. I don't care how many hours, years, decades he's been in the program. If he refuses to play by the rules he is as a poison to this program. We have an 50+ year old man in our Council requesting to receive his Eagle Rank. It seems his scoutmaster in order to determine if a scout was ready for Eagle, required scouts to swim the bay at scout camp. This man completed all the requirements for Eagle and when he couldn't swim the bay after several attempts he quit the program. He and his parents were unaware that the Scoutmaster wasn't a god. This man was cheated of a lifetime of being an Eagle Scout. For years a young man who should have worn our highest honor was disillusioned with a program he gave years to. There are young men throught this country who were turned off from scouting becuse of bad leaders. SHAME ON US. It irritates me to no end the number of adults who hang around this program for their own ego gratification and then hold up their years of service as a protective shield. We are here for the boys. Serve them or move aside! This Scoutmaster is wrong, period. Going to District or Council for help, once it is established he knows the rule, is not going over his head. This is the Boy Scouts, the Scout is already over his head. Evidently honesty and fair play may be out of his reach as well. Bob

Muzikar, The Boy Scout program is too big to put into a single book. However there really isn't a question in scouting that isn't addressed in print. The majority of what we have discussed in this string can be found in most of the Youth handbooks and in the Insignia Guide brochure available through your council service center. Bob

This is just a bit of scouting trivia that was spawned from a couple of comments made on other strings. There is a common misconception about the ranks in Cub and Boy Scouts. There are now 5 ranks in Cub Scouts. Tiger Bobcat Wolf Bear Webelos The Arrow of Light is not a rank. It is an award. An enhancement to the Webelos rank in the same way that a Palm enhances the Eagle rank. In Boy Scouts there are 6 ranks. Tenderfoot Second Class First Class Star Life Eagle The Scout Badge is an award that signifies the wearer has met the joining qualifications to become a scout. As mentioned before, Palms are not ranks, but enhancements to the eagle Rank. Here is some more trivia. For the first few decades the highest rank was First Class and Life, Star and Eagle (in that rearranged order) were enhancements to the First Class rank. That is why to this day the First Class Emblem is the symbol of the BSA and not the Eagle emblem. Every boy who joins Cubs after the eligibility age of Tigers, must complete the Bobcat rank first. So if a boy joins in 3rd grade he would first earn Bobcat then begin work on Bear Cub. He cannot go back and get Tiger or Wolf ranks. A boy who joins a troop at age thirteen Must first earn the scout badge and then begins work on tenderfoot, Second Class and First Class. Unlike in Cubs, a Boy Scout cannot skip ranks. Hope this clears up some questions. Bob

Terry, I am still unable to edit my posts. When I try I am sent to a message page that says I do not have a valid membershipo account. Please help. thanks Bob

The reason that the Webelos badge is oval and displays on the left pocket and the AOL badge is rectangle and displays below the left pocket is because the AOL is a permanent patch and remains on the Boy Scout uniform therough the entir rank progression. The webelos badge however will be rplaced by the Scout Badge soon after he joins the troop. By the way the Arrow of Light is not a rank. It is an award. Granted it is the highest award earned in Cub Scouts, and as such is the only Cub Scout award allowed to be displayed on the Boy Scout uniform (as a bar patch under the left pocket)and on the adult leader uniform (as a red and green knot with a yellow border, above the left pocket). The Scout badge is not a rank, it also is an award. The final rank in Cub Scouts is Webelos, and the first rank in Boy Scouts is Tenderfoot. Bob

NJScouter You can combine all your scouting years onto the light blue backed star or you can separate the youth and adult years. iof you choose to separate them your adult years go on the blue backgraound, Cub years on yellow and Boy Scout years on Green. There is no option for combining all youth years onto one background, unless you were in only one phase of the program. Welcome Back, Bob

So Dedicated Dad, If your boss was breaking the law and wanted you to conform to his vision of what is right and wrong, would you not tell him he was breaking the law? If he continued to break the law woulkd you ignore it in order to "get along"? Bottom line...It is a violation of BSA policy to alter the advancement requirements. Regardless of your view or the SM view of what appropriate hair style is, it is NOT a Boy Scout advancement reqirement for any rank. The scout should not have to compromise any belief he has, and as long as that belief does not violate a scouting regulation he will be advanced by an appellate board that reviews this case. I am troubled that the SM in question has several years of experience in the BSA an still has taken such a blatantly improper stance on this issue.

Dedicated Dad, Page 35 of the troop committee guide book, says that the Tour Permit is for the troop. The patrol is not a troop. the troop is a gathering of patrols. In the Guide to Safe Scouting it says tour permits are for scout units. A patrol is not a scout unit. Unit designates a pack, troop or crew. Only multiple patrols form a unit. In the Boy Scout Handbook it says that Patrol activities require permission of the SM and parents. The information we require (as developed by the PLC) far exceeds the information required on a tour permit. Since a patrol without adult supervision would not have use of motor vehicles, would not be able to get permission to camp overnight in state or national parks or government facilities, and would have to overnight on private property with permission from the owner, the tour permit has no purpose. Bob

Just one more thought as I reread your post momof2scouts. I appreciate your concern of not wanting to go over the SM's head, but you already are. More specifically your son is. If you look at what we refer to as the pyramid of scouting, a way to visualize the structure of the BSA, on the bottom layer is our National office and Regional offices they support the next layer of the Council. The council supports the District layer. The district supports the Charter Organization layer. That layer in turn supports the Unit Committee. The committee supports the sdult program leader's layer. At the peak of the hierarchy is the boy. So in our program everything that happens is there to support the boy, the focus of the BSA. The SM of your troop is not in a support mode on this topic. Going to the district for help is not going over the SM's head but going to his support level to help him get back on track. Bob

According to the Troop Committee Guide, this task would fall to the Outdoor/Activities Coordinator. As you pointed out some charter organizations may also ask for this information for their files, but this will vary from group to group. Certainly it would be an efficient way for your committee to prepare Tour Permits, if it had photo copies on hand of all parents and leaders who would potentially drive on outings.

You and your son should be commended. He sounds like a fine young man. I agree that a positive resolution should be found. My concern is, what if you don't find 6 Eagles with shoulder length hair? Would that mean that your son is wrong? What if your son was left handed and the scoutmaster wanted 6 more left handed scouts, would he be right in requiring it? The number of long haired Eagles in the country is irrelevant. The scoutmaster needs to be made aware that the BSA in the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual (available through your council service center) on page 4 the second column 2nd paragraph specifically states "No council, district, unit, or individual has the authority to add to or subtract from advancement requirements". I would hope that once the scoutmaster was made aware of the BSA policy he would drop this inappropriate requirement. Congratulations on obtaining the Eagle rank. Best of Luck, Bob

Local tour permits are for troop, pack and crew activities. A patrol activity is boy lead and does not have adults or motor vehicles and does not require a tour permit. Once you have adults on the activity all two deep leadership rules must be followed.

Try these song sites also. http://www.geocities.com/philmontsongbook/V3/contents.htm http://members.iinet.net.au/~oneilg/scouts/songs/songbook.html