Bob White

"When you want a thing done, 'Don't do it yourself' is a good motto for scoutmasters." "The more responsibility the Scoutmaster gives his patrol leaders, the more they will respond." "Train them, Trust them, Let them Lead" These are just a few quotes from Baden-Powell Here is one more "The patrol method is not just a way to run a troop, it is the only way to run a troop. Unless the patrol method is in operation you don't really have a Boy Scout troop." This is what BP was thinking of. You bring up so many interesting points it difficult to know where to begin. Allow me to address 6 points. 1. I am curious why the thought of being able to give the scouts more control over their own troop raises so many hackles. Isn't that the gaol of the program? Don't we want the scouts to have the leadership ability and commitment to be self sufficient? why then when you hear it's possible and that it is what the BSA program can and does make happen do you want to refuse it? 2. Don't think I'm saying you are doing a bad job. I'm not. I'm saying there is more to the scout method than you are utilizing and that you need to trust in it and in the abilities of the scouts to grow into the responsibility that the program gives them. I'm saying that there is room for leaders to learn just as there is for scouts but you need to be open to it. 3. I have voted in a lot of elections in my life from class president to president of the United States and I never knew of one that needed written permission from their mom to run. 4. There is a big difference between giving "guidance" and "doing". When you picked the junior leaders rather then letting the SPL as written on page-13 of the Scoutmaster Handbook, would you say that was guiding or doing? 5. I have trained and worked with scoutleaders from across the country and I can tell you that I have met hundreds of Scoutmasters that let the indians run the tribe. Why? because it is the indians tribe! The adults are there to train them how to do it. Our time to do it was when we wre scout age. 6. "Scouts Honor" the only time I have "layed down the law" was on the very few occasions when I felt a scouts safety would be endangered. I humbly ask that you take another read through the the Scoutmaster Handbook, or consider attending the new Woodbadge course in your area. There is more to this program than you are using, and I think you like what you find out. Bob

AAARRRGGHH! I wish the edit feature worked. Let's try that last post again. I would hesitate to use a web site as a reference. Only becuse you do not know the knowledge base of the writer. All the official scout references I have checked refer to the AOL as an award. Here is one example: Page 5 of the Official Boy Scout Handbook "A graduating Webelos Scout who has earned the Arrow of Light Award has completed most of the Boy Scout joining requirements." Notice the scout handbook does not say "Arrow of Light Scout" but refers to the boy as a Webelos Scout with the AOL Award. Bob

I would hesitate to use a web sit as a reference. Only becuse of you do not know the knowledge base of the writer. All the official scout references I have checked refer to the AOL as an awrd. Here is one example: Page 5 of the Official Boy Scout Handbook "A graduating Webelos Scout who has earned the arrow of Light Award has completed most of the Boy Scout joining requirements." Notice the scout handbook does not say "Arrow of Light Scout" but refers to the boy as a Webelos Scout with the AOL Award. Bob

Sorry, sometimes I get overenthusiastic. The answer to your question is... You may need election boundaries but it has to be the PLC's decision as to what they will be not yours. The handbook suggests 6 months between troop elections but leave it open to go longer or shorter. I've had scouts decide 6-months and some PLC's that went 9-months. Both worked fine. Patrols always decided on there own, most went 6-months. Most PLC's will say a scout needs to be 1st Class rank or higher. That's their choice, fine with me either way. I've seen scouts of all ages do a good job and do a bad job. It has less to do with age and more to do with how well they learn the scout leadership skills. Bob

Please don't look at anything I write as my interpretation. This stuff is straight out of BSA materials and training. If it's my opinion or interpretation I'll admit to it. According to the Scoutmaster Handbook, and the Junior Leader handbook. Troop rules (including election rules, and who can hold an office etc.) are set by the Patrol Leaders Council not the adults. In over 25-years as an adult leader I never made a single rule. I might have couseled a SPL about a problem he or I saw and asked him to address it it, but the decision on how to address it and who should be the responsible party was left to the vote of the PLC. That's why it's BOY Scouts. If adults want to be in charge they should join Rotary. I'm not trying to be sacastic. I'm trying to impress the fact that the BSA method is unique to any other youth organization. Think about when you were in school at scout age. Maybe you were on the football team or in the band. Did you get to pick your team name? Did you get to choose when you played or who you played? Did you get to choose your position on the team. No! Adults made every decision and you followed or left. We promise to make leaders and they only way a boy learns leadership is by being allowed to lead. Not lead sometimes or on somethings, but all the time and on everything. "But the boys will make mistakes!" Of course they will and they will learn from it. Better to make the mistakes now then when they're older. When they succeed it's their success not yours because they did what they were told. A scoutmaster has 2 jobs 1. Train Junior Leaders, 2. Know the Needs and Characteristics of Every Scout Too many people see the Patrol Method as utopian. It's not. It is the way we scout and it works ..every time it 's used correctly.

You're right that packs have a harder time, but the problem persists with troops also. I don't know how many have noticed but the first policy in the Guide to Safe Scouting says that no unit volunteer can hold two jobs in the same unit. So if you are on the charter as a den leader, you cannot also be on it as a committee member. So if you have a pack with tigers through Webelos 2, you must have a minimum of 9 registered adults (there are actually 10 mandatory positions but the Charter Org. Rep. Is allowed to also be a Committee Member.) and alot of packs do not have that kind of depth. When I started as a Cubmaster our pack had less then 30 boys, and at total of 7 adults. The Committee chair and I followed the program I outlined for you (which by the way is actually a BSA formula found in a brochure "Selecting quality Leaders" and in less than 2 years we had 96 scouts, 14 dens, 2 trained uniformed leaders in each den, 3 trained uniformed Asst. Cubmasters, and 12 trained uniformed Committee Members that each had a specific job to do monthly. I would rather have 44 trained adults helping than 9). When I moved after 3+ years one of my assistants took the reins and the transition was pretty much seamless. Just a few months ago a local Pack tried this plan and registered 9 adults in under 2 weeks. I hope you find it as successful. Bob

Roostr7, You are right and I apologize, I should have answered your examples specifically and I didn't. Please allow me to try now. your example-Some Muslim sects believe a boy should not shave after reaching a certain age. So, if the said Muslim sect was the chartering organization, a SM could refuse to sign off Scout Spirit for a boy that insisted on shaving (violation of the Scout Oath - "to do my duty to God and my country" and the Scout Law - "A Scout is reverent"). My Response- No. The COR can require the boy to meet the requirements set by the CO or rescind his membership. Because those are the rules of the chartered organization. But as the Scout volunteer Your job is to deliver the scouting program. You must follow the advancement rules of scouting and being clean shaven is not a violation and niether is having whiskers. If the COR does not feel that your perception of their rules negates the boy's membership then the only thing you can do is follow the regulations of scouting. Your next example-An American Legion, as a chartering organization, may feel that all Scouts in the troop must show respect for the American flag. If a Scout chose to wear a flag on the butt pocket of his jeans, a SM (reflecting the values of his chartering organization) may refuse to sign off the boy for Scout Spirit if he refused to remove the flag (violation of the Scout Oath - "to do my duty to God and my country" and the Scout Law - "A Scout is Obedient"). My Resonse- Yes, Sort of. You do not sign scout spirit is correct, but not because he won't remove it. You don't sign because he put it there and that does not show duty to country, courteous, loyal. You also don't sign because it is a uniform violation and does not represent the goals of scouting. Never refuse to sign because the boy did not do what you told him to. That makes you out to be the ultimate authority and you're not. Refuse to sign because the Boy has the authority to make his own choices and he made a choice that violated the BSA regulations or ideals as written in the BSA program. Don't rescind membership or hold advancement because YOU feel he violates the CO rules or ideals..that is not your job. Let the CO executive and the COR make that decision, they are the repesentatives of the Chater org. You are the Representative of the Scouting program. You need to support, defend and represent the BSA rules and regs. In your next post you offered 2 solutions, I think if you reread them you will say thay are saying the same thing. "change or leave". Basically your right but only within a certain framework. If the scout is violating the CO rules or Ideals the COR can say change or leave. If the scout is violating BSA Rules or regs you can refuse to sign scout spirit. (He will probably still get a Board of Review, but if you stick to just enforcing the rules and scout ideals not interpreting them to suit your opinions then your decision will probably be upheld, if however you feel he has too many holes in his ears, you will be overturned since that is not a violation.) Your other option would be to counsel the boy and his family to find a troop better suited to them. In the case of safety violations you can have the council rescind his membership. The Scoutmaster's job is to evalute the needs and characteristics of a boy not to judge him, and there is a difference. Bob

No, if the scout does not meet the criteria of the organization the COR may remove him from mebership. But you cannot deny him advancement, or alter advancement regulations, simply because you don't like his jewelry. Improper uniforming is another matter. That would violate BSA ideals of Duty to Country, courteous, loyal, and it violates BSA uniforming regulations. That is as I said before a whole different situation.

A fairly new committe position has been created for packs and troops. Pack Trainers and Troop Training coordinators, they will be able to not only promote training within their own unit, but once developed as trainers will be able to present most of the new training modules within the unit at the units convenience.

Why would a leader purposely not follow the program once they've learned it? Why are the few posters who reinforce the proven scout methods treated as extremists? Why would an adult choose to promote their ideals over the scouting ideals, or simply pick and choose the ones they like and the ones they ignore? I am sure that your questions seem as valid to you as mine do to me. Bob

Advanced on, You'll be glad to know that that the days of day-long Cub Leader Basic Training are gone. Cub Training has ben brought down to 2 sessions. New Leader Essentials (90 minutes) Job Specific training (Under 3 hours) Job Specific training has individual modules for Tiger Den Leaders, Wolf/Bear Den Leaders, Webelos Leaders, Pack Committee, and Cubmaster/Asst. Cubmaster. You only attend the session for your specific responsibility. If your pack position changes you only go back and take your new Job Specific instruction. After that there are longer-all day courses for supplemental training such as Pow-wow, Baloo, and Webelos Outdoor Training Once a Cub Volunteer has completed basic they may immediately attend Woodbadge for advanced leadership skills. As far as Fast Start, it has been recently revamped and re-released. Your council should be getting the new tapes this month if they haven't already arrived. however Fast Start is no longer required for basic training. It is a helpful tool though for orientation for new leaders. Best of luck, Bob

Rooster7, You need to decide what this conversation is about. Character qualities exhibited by the scout that violate the ideals of the Scout Oath and Law, or physical characteristics that do not meet your taste or personal choice and are not against the rules of the CO or the BSA.

You're to be commended for taking a bad relationship and making it a good one. I think you took the all the right steps. It almost always requires the scout unit to take the initiative to create the change. Communications, service, visibility, concern for the CO success and growth, these are the materials that pave that two-way street. Great Job!

I really apologize for the misspellings. I hit the submit button a little faster than I should I guess.

roodter7 you are absolutely correct. The charter organization has the right to set membership requirements based its goals and objectives. However it also signs an annual agreement, the Charter, where it promises to abide by the policies and regulations of the BSA. The charter organization can refuse or remove the mebership of any adult or youth it chooses. However as long as that youth is accaptable as a member of the troop by the CO, you are required to treat him in accordance with the rules and regulations of the BSA.

Couldn't you have counseled the boy into a new position say as an Instructor, opening up the SPL position an maintaining the patrol method process of open elections? I agree that sometimes the scoutmaster has to guide the boys through suggestion, but isn't it more important to keep the promises we make to the scouts in their handbook? Bob

Good morning slontwovvy, Sounds like you enjoy a strong relationship with your sponsor. I agree that that constant communications is vital to maintain the relationship. Do you make use of a priest or deacon as a Troop Chaplain? How about a scout as Chaplains Aid? Bob

A question was raised by poster dan in another string that needed to be asked. "How does one become an appointed SPL?" The Patrol Method of Scouting, and as Baden-Powell said "the Patrol Method is not ONE method to run a troop, it is the ONLY method", is very explicid in determining Troop leadership. Senior Patrol Leaders are elected by the majority decision of the troop and then they appoint an assistant. In the same way the Patrol Leader is elected by the majority decision of the patrol and then he selects an Assistant Patrol Leader. All other patrol officers are selected by the Patrol Leader, and the other troop officers are appointed by the senior Patrol Leader, with consultation from the Scoutmaster. I too was surprised to see more than one person say "appointed SPL". The official Boy Scout Handbook promises boys that they will be able to choose their own leaders. Nowhere in the Scoutmaster Handbook or in any Scout Leader Training course is it taught that an adult selects the SPL or PL. Leader elections are a pivitol part of the scouting program regardless of the age or experience of the troop membership. I guess the question dan and I are probably both wondering is, does this practice come from an innocent lack of knowledge from new and inexperienced adult volunteers who have not had the opportunity to learn the program yet, or is it a conscious decision by adults to force they will over the boys troop?

I'm going to do that last post again. My spelling was atrocious. I wish the edit feature worked! eagle90, Something to consider. It's been my experience that unless you have a good relationship with your CO, you are viewed by them not as their Scout unit, but as the scout unit that meets in their church, school, hall, etc. Thats a big difference. You're not seen as their youth outreach program you are an outside group that uses their facilities when they could be using it instead. Now consider this. the PTO doesn't expect the choir to pay rent, or the band to pay rent, or the chess club to pay rent. However I can see how your generous donation is seen as "Oh look that pack sent in their rent!" I recommend that you give them the $200, but give it towards a pet project of the PTO. Send some boys and some adults in uniform, carrying the pack flag with their name on it when you give it to them. Let them know how happy you are to be their scout unit and to help support their OTHER projects. Now you're a benefactor not a renter. Bob I feel much better now.

eagle90, something to consider. It's been my experienc that unless you have a ggo rel;ationship with your CO, you are viewed by them not as their Scout unit, but as the scout unit that meets in their church, school, hall, etc. Thats a big difference. your not seen as their youth outreach program you are an outside gfroup that uses their facilities when they could be using it instead. now consider this. the PTO doesn't expect the choir to pay rent, or the band to pay rent, or the chess club to pay rent. However I can see how your generous donation is seen as "Oh look that pack sent in their rent!" I recommend that you give them the $200, but give it towards a pet project of the PTO. Send some boys and some adults in uniform, carrying the pack flag with their name on it when you give it to them. Let them know how happy you are to be their scout unit and to help support their OTHER projects. Now your a benefactor not a renter. Bob

OK here goes. This may take some space to describe but I hope you'll find it worthwhile. Ever notice how most units recruit by standing in front of the parents at a pack meeting and saying something like this. "It takes alot of work to run this pack and we need your help. Some of us are working 2 or three positions and if we don't get someone to help then we can't have (a Wolf den, a Pack, a Pinewood Derby, a Blue and Gold, pick the threat of your choice). So if you'd be willing to help keep things going, come see me or Joan Smith after the meeting". Does that sound familiar? Ever see a rush of parents charge the front of the room to sign up? Me either. The other method we've already discussed is the forced Sign-up list. The problems there are you get people who sign up knowing they will never follow through, or you get people who sign up for work they have no skill, characteristic or aptitude for. So here is the model that our most successful units use. They don't recruit, they SELECT their volunteers. It's very effective and takes some front end time to set-up then everything happens fairly quickly. Step 1- Briefly explain to parents the importance of the scouting program, Character-Citizenship-Mental and Physical Fitness. Then remind them that this is a family activity and that everyone has something that will help the Pack grow and go. (This is a good time to pass out the Parent Resource Sheet and some pens, let them have a few minutes to fill them out and collect them as they leave. Step 2- Identify the specific jobs that need to be done. Break them down into small manageable bites. Whats the starting date? the end date? the goal? How will they know when their successful? How does it benefit the boys? What resources are available to help make the job easier? and most important what characteristics and skills does a person need to do the job well. Step 3- Who do you have that has some of those skills and characteristics. (Here is where those resource sheets come in handy). Step 4- Prioritize the list for that specific job. Who would you most like to have do it. Step 5- Gather the resources for the job, make an appointment to visit the person at their home, office or restaurant. (Never make them come to you!) take anothe volunteer with you, preferably one they know. Step-6 Tell them the committe has identified an element missing from the pack that is keeping the boys from having a quality scouting experience, and that the missing element is them. "There is a job that has to been done and we have determined that you can do it better than anyone else." "Before you make a decision let us tell you about the job and show you all the tools we have for you to get the job done". Step 7- show them what you determined in steps 2&3. Step 8- remind them the value of the program and the value you see in them. Step 9- Give them the tools along with a application, welcome them to scouting. Now go see your next new volunteer. Finally, Keep Your Promise, don't add to the job or ask them to do a differnt job. When their done, give them a hardy handshake a big pat on the back and a gift (certificate, hat pin, dinner certificate). We have found that 8 out of 10 times we get the first person we ask. It works for every job in scouting. Remember, select don't recruit. Ask personally, privately and face-to-face. give them the scouting tools to do the job. Don't make it sound like work make it sound like they're important to the boys(they are)! Never complain in front of parents. Parents are volunteers you haven't been asked to help yet. No matter what the shape of the pack is smile and speak positively. People watch train wrecks from a distance they don't climb on board. Try it and see. Bob

And I think here is were the confusion lies. We seem to be discussing 2 seperate topics in this string. Membership requirements and advancement requirements. The chartered organization has the authority to set membership requirements that can include dress codes as well as personal appearances, religious restrictions, residential restrictions, any restrictions the charter organization wants to set based on their tenants and the population the chartered organization serves. The troop cannot, nowhere in scouting is the unit committee given authority over membership requirements. Te unit must follow those set by the chartered org. Once a youth meets the joining requirements of the BSA and the membership requirements of the Chartered organization you cannot set additional advancement regulations on him. If he wears to many piercings or dresses in a way contrary to the chartered organization' liking, only the Charter Organization Representative can remove his membership, but no one can change the advancement requirements.

How about you take the documents listed in requirement 1, and reprint them in sevtions on large pieces of paper. break the group up into teams and have them put the phrases in order to recreate the document. Requirement two, discuss how scouting is a microcasm of the federal government. with the SPL as the elected executive branch, the PLC as the elected legislature and the troop committee as the judiciary. discuss the checks and balances within the unit (assuming the unit uses the actual scouting program and patrol method)and how they mirror the process that runs our government. Create a chart that shows relationships between state and federal govwernment. Leave title boxes blank. give the group index cards with the titles on them and as you moderate the discussion have them place the cards in the appropriate locations. requirement 5 give the group or sub groups news[apers have them find articles on ste or national issues. Have them each identify an issue to form an opinion on and write down a couple of lines that summarize their opinion and who it should be addressed to. requirement 6- invite a state or federal politician in to explain 5 or 6 functions of the government. Break the group into 5 buzz groups, have them each identify how those functions affect their families and their lives. requirement 7 Have you got a local IRS office?

The Boy Scouts of America have regulations controling proper uniforming, we leave accessorizing and hairstyling to the legal parental authorities, not to the personal prejudices of adult volunteers.

Let's take a few more tips from others about how they get adult help, then I'll post a method that we (the units in my local district) have found to be consistantly seccessful.