Bob White

shemgren, Do you know any scouters in Eden Prairie? Bob

Hey, heres an excercise that could be fun. I saw this done at a Commissioners College. baden Powell fely there wasn't any troop problem (we are not talking adult volunteer problems) that couldn't be solved by the Patrol Method. We were all asked to give a real life situation, nothing fabricated, having to do with troop or patrol operations or activities. we broke into groups and had to identify how the patrol method could slve the probem. It helped alot of people to see what BP meant and to see that the methods were as valid today as over 90-years ago. I encourage every to play. Give a problem or patrol method solution to a posted problem. This is not scouting according to Bob, this is scouting by the methods of the BSA. evmori had a good one on page 2 of the Broken Rules string in Policies. let's try some others.

As Scoutmaster the R rated would never have arrived at camp. The campout would have been planned at the Patrol Leaders Council. If videos were to be played the Senior patrol Leader would have asked for the titles of what was to be viewed, or guidelines would have been set by the PLC as to what could be brought. If R rated materials were involved I would ask the SPL if he thought that was appropriate. If I've done my job, as a trainer of leaders, I know what that answer will be and the problem would be resolved. It was solved not because I told them what to do, but because I asked them what would be the right thing to do I know they will make the right decision, because that is what the program taught them. Bob

Evmori, Would you advise a doctor to quit learning, or a police officer to not improve his marksmanship, or a firfighter to not hone his skills? The only time I give chapter and verse is when I have to give proof to scouters that what they are doing is not what the program is. I'm showing this is not my opinion this is the rule of the program I signed an agreement to follow. AND it works. Why, when you say you're a scoutmaster and by your own admition you do not follow the methods of the program, do you get angry at the message and the messenger. If you are a lawyer shouldn't you follow the law? If you're a Scoutmaster shouldn't you follow the Scoutmaster handbook and the Boy Scout handbook? Why is that expectation unreasonable? I've been in the "real world" of scouting as a unit volunteer for almost 3 decades. I've also trained at local, regional and national levels for over 20 years. I know what what scouts are capable of when they are taught how to do it. You don't think that an 11 or 12 year old can lead a patrol..why not teach them? The BSA has said for 92 years that boys that age can lead. You don't honestly beleive they all the troops that do it are wrong? "If the learner hasn't learned, Then the teacher hasn't taught." Just because you haven't tried the BSA methods, doesn't mean you can't change. Bob

Let's try that again with correct spelling. Evmori, This is a huge program with thousands of units. I realize that you probably took every precaution, but not everyone does. As stated before the problem with trusting in common sense is that it isn't common. The rules have to apply to everyone for the good of the welfare of all boys. I'm sure you would would rather err on the side of protecting the scout then not. Bob P.S I always saw my as being ultimately responsible for seeing that scouts developed into leaders. The ultimate responsibility for the success of the troop was in the capable hands of the scouts. It was their troop, I had the priviledge of being the scoutmaster. I made sure that the boys knew how to lead and that no-one was injured. I had my troop when I was a Boy scout, now it's the boys turn to have theirs. If you were a parent and not a scoutmaster, which style would you prefer for your son's troop? Happy Scouting, Bob

Luke, cookies are active.

Evmori, This is a huge program with thousands of units. I realize that you probaly took every precaution, but not every one does. As stated before the problem eith trusting in common sense is that it isn't common. The rules have to apply to every for the good of the welfare of all boys. I sure you would would rather err on the side of protecting the scout then not. Bob

sctmom, Something that would help your situation is a part of the patrol method called the New Scout Patrol. It was designed and introduced to Boy Scouting in the late 80's and is still the recommended way to operate a scout troop. It is designed to meet two specific needs of new scouts. Advancement and Socialization. The New Scout Patrol is a group of 6 to 8 newly crossed over webelos or webelos aged boys to a patrol. That patrol is assigned an Assistant Scoutmaster and an older scout of at least First Class Rank as the Troop Guide. The advancement goal for the New Scout Patrol is First class First Year. To that end the New Scout Patrol functions very independantly from the rest of the patrols. They start off with the troop at the opening of meetings and at the closing, and might participate in a game, but for the most part they are off learning and doing the basic scout skills toward First Class. In this way they are part of the troop but still seperate, to allow the boys to grow in skills, maturity and strength before they are mixed with the rest of the troop. The New Patrol is encouraged to have their own outings as well. Simply because they do not have the skills or stamina to do the activities of the older scouts. For Leadership the New Scout Patrols rotate the Patrol Leader role monthly so that by the end of the first year each New Scout has had a taste of leadership responsibilities and has had the opportunity to attend a monthly Patrol Leaders Council Meeting to see how a troop functions. Upon reaching First Class the New Scouts have the choice of staying together as a patrol or joining Regular Patrols. Regular patrols are made of Scouts who are First Class and higher. Their troop meetings focus on event planning and learning advanced skills and introduction to Merit Badges. The third type of Patrol would be a Venture Patrol of older scouts doing High Adventure Activities. these would be the most skilled and oldest scouts. They are largely responsible for teaching skills to the other scouts. This organization allows you to offer activities that fit the needs and characteristics of each age and development level. A complete outline of this process is in the Scoutmasters Handbook. I hope this helps. Bob

Fscouter, Speaking for myself. I apologize if I have brlittled anyone. i do not apologize for pointing out the scout methods and policies that are being ignored by trained scouters. I remain curious as to why when references are given to basic scout manuals the show the correct scout method, we receive such hostile replies. how come no one has said. "Wow, I haven't let my scouts use the patrol method, we'll have to make some changes." Instead we get "Thats not what we do, how dare you let the boys control their own troop." There seems to be people here who want new ideas as long as it is not the BSA methods that they have yet to use. I make no apologies for believing in the scouting program as it is designed and evolves. when I see and hear of the "MY TROOP" scouting rather than "the boy's troop" of scouting, all I can see are the hundreds if not thousands of boys nation-wide who leave with a bad taste in their mouths toward a program they never really experienced. There is no way anyone could have attended training and especially been a trainer and not know of Patrol Activities and the Patrol Method. That would be like going to a zoo and not seeing any animals. If you are a new leader why be asking for NEW ways to do things. Why aren't you asking for the BSA way of doing thing?

Yes, I used to be a Bob White and a good 'ol Bob White to... I would love to hear your evaluation. I was fortunate enough to be one of the contributing authors to the new Wood Badge. I hope you find it to be a mountain top experience. Bob

It has been my experience that a registered adult that won't wear the uniform also will not follow other scouting program elements and regulations. A bad leader is worse than no leader.

tdyer, You raise a common question and I can give you two reasons. 1. when a person holds multiple positions it can become a barrier to youth protection. There were many cases throughout the coutry were adults were able to approve themselves for membership. there needs to be checks and balalances to make sure that references are checked and we are getting the proper leaders in place. 2. when someone who wears multiple hats within a unit leaves they leave multiple holes behind. not everyone wants multiple jobs. They see joe leaving and they see all the different things joe did and theu say "I don't have time to do all that!" and they stay away. Holding multiple jobs in a unit IS NOT a benefit to the unit, it's a big problem waiting to happen. The more volunteeers we get the deeper the unit's resources and the easier thay can handle transitions. Bob

"To the fullest extent possible, the merit badge badge counselor relationship is a counselor-scout arrangement in which the boy is not only judged on his performance of the requirements, burecieves maimum benefit from the knowledge, skill, characterr and personal interest of his counselor" the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual. The Counselor has a two part job, to guide and instruct, and to evaluate. All scouting advancement is based on 4-steps; the scout learns, the scout is tested, the scout is reviewed, the scout is recognized. In the merit badge process the MB counselor is reponsible for teaching and testing. Bob

I think we can look at 2 primary reasons that you feel the way you do Eman. 1. Is the quality of some merit badge instruction. 2. the over-emphasis of the Eagle rank by Scoutmasters. First the Merit Badge instruction. To mant merit badge instruction such as local Merit Badge Days stress getting the entire merit badge in 90-minutes or less. The support a process of minimal instruction and group knowledge testing. Neither of which are in keeping with BSA advancement principles. I put summer camp in the same category with many of the MB earned there. Swimming , Rifle and Shotgun, Canoing, all do a good job of individual testing, however many of the other MBs, such as First-aid, dol group testing. I know that this varies from camp to camp, but it is necessary for adult leaders to touch bases with their Scouts MB classes to make sure a quality job is done. Also on this topic, the first step in working o a MB is for the scout to see the scoutmaster for a bluecard. It is the scoutmaster's responsibility to send this scout to a competent and qualified counselor. If they keep getting back scouts who don't know the topic but have a signed blue card the SMs have no one to blame but themselves. Quit sending boys to poor quality counselors. On the second topic. There is one advancement goal in scouting set by the BSA and it is First Class/First Year. The Eagle Scout rank is an individual accomplishment by the scout, yet how many conversations have you heard where a troop is grading itself by the number of Eagles it had last year or the number it is going to have this year. TOO MANY leaders see Eagle scout as the aim of scouting rather than Character Development, Citizenship, Mental and Physical Fitness. You can leave scouting with all these characteristics and not have achieved Eagle Scout. We need to help these boys pace themselves. The first year should be spent earning First Class-no MB required. Keep the first summer camp workload of MBs light, let the boys have a good time swimming, shooting, boating, and meeting new friends. Control the quality of MB intruction. Avoid group testing, bad counselors, and poorly run MB Colleges. Use troop meeting activities to introduce MBs not as MB clinics. The MB is designed as an individual process for each scout. My .02

While we wait fo mommascout to respond I'll mention that I first took training when it was Cornerstone, Then I took and taught Scout Leader Basic Training, then took and taught Woodbadge, then took and taught Scoutmaster Fundamentals, not to mention Outdoor Experience and have now taken and taught the new Scoutmaster/Asst, Scoutmaster Job Specific Leader Training and Introduction to Outdoor Skills. All these in 4 different councils. In every one of them the Patrol Method and Patrol Activities were a central part of the instruction. Bob

Nicely done featherswillfly. I've always found that the adults setting the patrol example is not only good training for the scouts, but is the best ASM recruitment tool. When parents see that when they come on a campout their job is to work with other adults and observe while the boys follow the agenda camp agenda made by the PLC, they understand that being a leader is not the hassle they expected.

For me it was how to lead by asking questions rather than giving orders. Bob

Many units I come in contact with have been very successful in getting scouts to wear full and correct uniforms. They have all done it without the use of threats of punishments. Ithought I would share some of those methods with you and maybe you would have some to add as well. Bob 1. Take the time to explain to parents the imortance of the uniform and why we wear one. let them know from the beginning that the uniform includes shirt, pants, belt, socks, and if your unit has chosen a neckerchief, and uniform hat. 2. Have all Adults set the example, no exceptions. it is better to not have the adult then to havve one who won't wear a proper uniform. 3. We did intermittent door prizes at troop meetings and to be in the drawing you had to be in full uniform that night and have your book. It was fun to see scouts who got pants just to be in the drawing. 4. Positive statements to scouts who wore fill uniforms as to how mature they looked. 5. Special event color guard teams that required a full uniform to be part of. 6. Have a committee member who checks the goodwill stores and garage sales for inexpensive uniform pieces. 7. Encourage scouts to use some of their shares of fundraising proceeds to purchase missing uniform pieces. 8. Encourage parents to make uniform pieces part of Birthday and holiday gift giving. what POSITIVE methods have you used?

Many units I come in contact with have been very successful in getting scouts to wear full and correct uniforms. They have all done it without the use of threats of punishments. Ithought I would share some of those methods with you and maybe you would have some to add as well. Bob 1. Take the time to explain to parents the imortance of the uniform and why we wear one. let them know from the beginning that the uniform includes shirt, pants, belt, socks, and if your unit has chosen a neckerchief, and uniform hat. 2. Have all Adults set the example, no exceptions. it is better to not have the adult then to havve one who won't wear a proper uniform. 3. We did intermittent door prizes at troop meetings and to be in the drawing you had to be in full uniform that night and have your book. It was fun to see scouts who got pants just to be in the drawing. 4. Positive statements to scouts who wore fill uniforms as to how mature they looked. 5. Special event color guard teams that required a full uniform to be part of. 6. Have a committee member who checks the goodwill stores and garage sales for inexpensive uniform pieces. 7. Encourage scouts to use some of their shares of fundraising proceeds to purchase missing uniform pieces. 8. Encourage parents to make uniform pieces part of Birthday and holiday gift giving. what POSITIVE methods have you used?

Many units I come in contact with have been very successful in getting scouts to wear full and correct uniforms. They have all done it without the use of threats of punishments. Ithought I would share some of those methods with you and maybe you would have some to add as well. Bob 1. Take the time to explain to parents the imortance of the uniform and why we wear one. let them know from the beginning that the uniform includes shirt, pants, belt, socks, and if your unit has chosen a neckerchief, and uniform hat. 2. Have all Adults set the example, no exceptions. it is better to not have the adult then to havve one who won't wear a proper uniform. 3. We did intermittent door prizes at troop meetings and to be in the drawing you had to be in full uniform that night and have your book. It was fun to see scouts who got pants just to be in the drawing. 4. Positive statements to scouts who wore fill uniforms as to how mature they looked. 5. Special event color guard teams that required a full uniform to be part of. 6. Have a committee member who checks the goodwill stores and garage sales for inexpensive uniform pieces. 7. Encourage scouts to use some of their shares of fundraising proceeds to purchase missing uniform pieces. 8. Encourage parents to make uniform pieces part of Birthday and holiday gift giving. what POSITIVE methods have you used?

It has become obvious through the many string and posts at this board that the Patrol method means entirely different things to different people. What concerns me most are the people who when they hear of scouts who are given more leadership opportunities then their scouts get become defensive rather than excited. They say "How could you?" instead of "How can I?" This string is to allow those who use the patrol method of scout (as Baden-Powell said "The only method of scouting") to its full measure. Here is just one of my examples. The troop arrives at the campground and the patrol leaders each with a patrol member go in search of a patrol campsite. Once they have selected it, they return to the troop and lead the patrol to the site to set up camp. At a time predetermined by the Senior Patrol Leader the patrol Leaders gather and lead the SPL on a tour of their locations. The SPL then leads the SM on the same tour. As they walk around the SM questions the SPL about the good things and the things that the SPL thinks can be improved at each site. The Spl then returns to the patrol sites and talks to the Patrol Leader about what is good and what the Patrol Leader sees that needs improvement and then leaves the Patrol Leader to make the needed changes with his patrol. This is not just the way my son's troop works (and I am not the SM) but this is how the troop I served as SM worked, and this is how my troop over 30 years ago worked. I am more and more proud of these boys every time we camp. That's the Patrol Method. What story will you share? Bob

Nice to meet you you mommascout. I really don't mean to come on as strong as I do sometimes on these posts. I have unlimited patience with scouts of all ages, and with new leaders looking to provide a scouting experience in service of youth. I have great fun with scouters who let the program methods guide them rather than their opinions. But I find I have limited tolerance for "veteran scouters" who believe their mathods are superior to the BSA but they refuse to acknoweldge the the information in BSA resources and training that are the scouting program. Bob

Thank you shemgren, You are correct.

We stopped turning new cubs upside down because for some children being up-ended by a stranger in front of a crowd of other strangers, isn't as fun for them as it evidently is for you. How many small children are you wiling to frighten for the sake of "tradition"?

Where do we get patrols opersting individually?? How about page 20 of the Official Boy Scout Handbook. How about page 22 of the Scoutmaster Handbook How about at training. "Troops are not divided into patrols, Patrols come together to form a troop. "Ages and stages has been a part of scout leader training for over 10 years." Without the patrol method you are not scouting, you are just doing stuff in a scout uniform. Evmori, not only are your scouts not having a real scout experience, you are missing out as well. I hope you will consider taking one day of your time and relearning what the program is all about. Attend Scoutmaster/Assistant Scoutmaster Leader Training. Bob