Bob White

Rooster7-The complete requirement reads Demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath (Promise) and Scout Law in your everday life. The measure of scout spirit is a by the characteristics defined in the Boy Scout Handbook. If a Troop was chaqrtered to a Jewish temple. the temple is well within its rights to say this troop is for the development of the youth of our temple only. If a Catholic boy wanted to join, the troop must say "I'm sorry but this troop is for Jewish members only". If that same temple determines that the troop is open to all the youth in the community, then they have the authority to do that as well. When that same Catholic boy joins the troop and advances to Star Scout, can the Scoutmaster say "I won't sign because you don't follow the ideals and characteristics that are represented by the Jewish religion"? By choosing to use the Scouting program the Charter Organization is saying they agree and endorse the values of scouting. Annually when they sign their Shared Responsibilities agreement as part of the yearly Charter process, the Charter executive or Charter Organization Representative, agree in contract to follow and support the methods and policies of the BSA program. So the Chartering Organization determines that their goals are met through the values and methods of the BSA and they annually accept those values and agree to use and follow our rules and methods in the operation of the troop. The role of the Scoutmaster is to help the boy grow in the values of scouting. If the values of the scoutleader do not agree with the value of scouting, then that person has neither the right or the authority to alter those values to reflect his own. You can try. You can refuse to sign as many Scout spirits as you want for whatever reason. If you do it based on the points of the Law and the contents of the Oath, fine. Refuse for such predjudicial reasons as earrings or hairlength, and the BSA program will defend the boy from such obvious abuse and advance the scout without your signature. There are a few posters who tire of my pointing out the resources of the scouting program that most of us use, so I will make this perfectly clear that the next part of this post is my own interprtation of the scouting program. The BSA program has a host of training opportunities, manuals and reference materials to assist, prepare and develop quality leaders. The BSA has policies and procedures in place to protect youth from the other leaders. Bob

Hi OGE, I guess I'll take a crack at this before I head to bed. The patrol methods has two tiers. The first Scoutmaster trains Junior Leaders, Junior leaders operate the troop. As I see it this is a training dilema not an operations one. My first thought was for you to have a counseling session with him. Ask him how he felt being SPL and how he felt the other patrol Leaders gave him the opportunity to lead. Ask him if he feels he is giving the current SPL the same respect the PLs gave him. Ask him what he could do to help the current SPL enjoy his short time in office and have the learning opportunities the the ex-SPL enjoyed. My second thought was the same counseling session only done by a 3member Board of review(remember Boards can be done at any time with any scout). They could begin by asking him how his advancement is coming then move into discussing his current role as PL. finally broach the topic of the relationship withe the Current SPL and the questions I listed above. I am sure some might suggest taking the boy aside and telling him to be quiet and let the SPL do his job. It's quicker, powerful, let's him know you're the boss. But did he mature from the experience? I'd guess not. The methods I suggest allow for some intraspection and self evaluation. It lets the boy decide for himself what the right decision is. That's the Scouting way. Hope this helps, Bob

Eisely, I feel you have misrepresented my earlier posts or at the least misunderstood them. I did say that the Policies of the BSA are clear and I also agree they are rigid. That is why they are called policies. They are the unbendable rules. They cover Uniform, Safety, and Advancement. When a policy says "you can't" it means you can't., not 'you shouldn't' or 'well if you really have to. It means No. The Methods of Scouting, the Ideals, tht Patrol Method, the Outdoor Program, the Advancement Program, Adult Association, Personal Growth, and Leadership Development, are the things that make scouting, Scouting. They are the elements of the game. They are how we do what we do. without these elements it is just doing things in a scout uniform. They are the common elements that make it a nationwide PROGRAM. One poster asked "Why is it, every time an adult leader breaks a perceived BSA policy or rule (even "small" ones), the adult is portrayed as "poorly trained" Gee I don't know, why is it when someone breaks a local law (even a small one) we call it a criminal act. Because laws (despite what you may have heard) were not made to be broken. they were made to protect others and give continuity to a community. Also remeber that ignorance of the law is no excuse. BSA policies are there to protect youth and adults from harm whether that be mental, physical or legal. They give continuity to the the scouting community. We have no more right to violate those policies than we do to break a law in our civic community. The styles of leadership vary, I am amused by one poster who argues against the validity of many of the methods of scouting, and then complains that he doesn't have enough scouts to do things according to the BSA program. HMMM doesn't use the program as written in the SM handbook and doesn't have enough scouts, well imagine that. Within the scouting program are lots of opportunities for variation. I agree there are often multiple solutions to a problem. But when it comes to the few portions covered by scouting policies, you are either right or wrong. When you are wrong, children suffer the consequences. No volunteer has the right or the authority to do that. No one has yet to give a single example of an unclear Policy. There may be one out there, but its funny that no one has given an example yet. Bob

Luke, Please fix the edit function. My typos are embarrassing.

OOPS! Then I brought out the uniform pool.

NJCubScouter, Unless you've already sewn on patches, go back and get the short sleeve shirt. They will fit your son a lot longer. Bob PS. Met with a patrol of New scouts tonight, along with their parents. The Troop Guide put on a display on how to prepare your gear for a campout. Afterward I talked to the parents about the scout uniform. All the Boys have the shirt and the belt already. I explained what the purpose of the uniform was and that we would like to have the boys in feull uniform by the next Court of honor in three months. I said if if anyone needed financial help that it was available and they could speak confidentially to the troop Chaplain. Everyone said that it was no problem . then i bought out the uniform pool and three of the eight boys found pants that fit. No threats no demands, no complaints. It really is that easy. Attitude is Everything Bob White

Sure you can recognize her. You can give her thank you stuff, pins, certificates, gratitude, fellowship. She can still get the trained strip, it doesn't matter what unit she is in when she gets it, she's still trained. She could spend her tenure for her cubscout knot registered with the pack, then register to the troop and get her Training Award knot as a troop committee member. She can still attend woodbadge, She still gets her service stars. There is not a single recognition that she couldn't recieve. Bob

The traditions of scouting lay in our Duty to God and Country, Duty to Others and Duty to self. Not in our choice of hairstyle or jewelry. I respect a chartering organization's right to set its own membership requirements that upholds its ideals and beliefs. I expect Scout Leaders to deliver the scouting program not their personal customized version of it in a scout uniform. I believe your statements reflect predjudice because you pre-judge the behavior of people based on a physical characteristic. Scouting discriminates. We take a known behavior make a determination as to whether it is good or bad. As an example Atheism, scouting believes that it is a behavior that is in direct conflict with a scout's Duty to God, and so we do not except atheists. We do not select a physical characteristic such as an an earring and say "Bad citizen" or "Doesn't respect his country", "Won't help other people", "Probably abuses drugs or alchohol". That would be prejudicial, and predjudice is something scouting does not endorse of participate in. Predjudice is in direct conflict with a the scout Law "a scout is Friendly", and with a scouts promise to help other people at all times. You DD, have shown trenendous predjudice in your comments. Whether you do it from the thrill of the hunt to find a juicy debate, or from actual belief or merely gross ignorance of the scouting program. I no longer care what thought if any are behind your comments. others reading this string will have to choice which approach they view as scout like. I hope that they make that decision only after they reread this string and then read the Scoutmaster Handbook and the Boy Scout Handbook. I invite them to then choose who has represented the scout program and who has not. Yours in Scouting, Bob White

k9gold scout, The red jacket you have with the scout patch and as such is intended to be worn as designated in the Insignia guide. You will be pleased to know there are no uniform police. For 92 years the program has relied upon the character of it's it volunteer's to follow the rules and regulations of the BSA as they promised when they signed their membership form. For millions of adults and youth how have come through the program the inate drive to do the right thing and set a good example is all the enforcement that has every been needed.

That all depends tdyer. What specific jacket are you refering to? If it is a official scout uniform jacket, no. The All official scout jackets and wool jack-shirt may only carry a specific and limited set of patches in specific locations. You will find the details in the Insignia Guide. The OA pocket flap is not approved for these uniform pieces. If it is a non-uniform jacket you can put anything you choose on it. Bob White

Congratulations to your son NJCubScouter for reaching his new rank. the only problem you ran into is that shirts come in specific sizes and boys don't. I am not sugesting that all larges in all shirts are the same size because they're not, It's just that at some moments in every boys development, nothing fits right. I think you had the right strategy. Buy a little large without looking like you're wearing a tent.(and buy the short sleeve shirt not the long sleeve) We bought our sons Boy Scout Uniform when he was a 2nd year Webelos, two days ago he turned 14 and the shirt still fits him. (he is at least 8 inches taller now then he was then). His current shirt minus his patches will soon join the uniform pool at the troop. We hope it will help another scout out. We are also hopefull there will be shirt there that fits his new size as well. But not all boys grow at the same rate. You roll the dice and you take your chances. I wonder if the next shirt will last him 3 1/2 years also? Bob

Hi rwb380, page 88 of the boy scout handbook describes the service project as benefitting others, the community or the environment. featherswillfly gave some very good examples. He is also correct that there can be no reward, in addition, it cannot benefit scouting, your unit, or a business. Bob

featherswillfly The mom can help both Units as long as she only registers in one. That will violate neither the churches rules or scoutings. Bob

Featherswillfly, Our apologies. Youre right we never really discussed your specific problem. If I understand the initial issue. Your Charter Organization has a standing rule for all church volunteers that says, if they are on a church committee they cannot serve on any other committee outside the church. Unfortunately, if that is the case, there is not a solution through scouting avenues. The BSA has no authority over the rules of the CO unless they directly violate a BSA policy. I can only recommend that you discuss the issue with the Pastor. Remind him the importance of the program in developing the character of young people and that as a parent you want to be involved in your childs activities. Otherwise, I guess I have to ask what is the worst that he can do to you, excommunication seems unlikely.

Evmori, Nowhere in mommascout's post does she say I am a better leader than you. She says that we are vastly different leaders. I think even you have to agree with this. In my postings I have said the scout program, as it is written, works. It works in thousands of scout troops. Nowhere have I said my way is better, I have said the BSA program is better. But as we all agree we are different. The Boy Scout Handbook promises scouts individual Patrol Activities. Evmori says, that in all his years of training he has never heard of patrol activities. The Scoutmaster Handbook and every Boy Scout Training program says that the SPL with guidance from the SM selects troop officers for a recommended 6 month term. Evmori says, Positions like Quartermaster, Troop Guide, etc. are appointed by myself for a term of 1 year. Just a couple of examples of the differences. Why is it that expecting Boy Scout Leaders to use the Boy Scout program is met with such hostility? Mommascout says we are different. If you translate that as I'm better, then I guess I will just have to bow to your expertise. All I was ever trying to do was follow the program as it is explained in the Boy Scout and Scoutmaster Handbooks. Yours in scouting, Bob White

Featherswillfly, You are confusing two positions in scouting, with two positions in the same unit. In accordance with the first policy (Seen in bold type face) of the Guide to Safe Scouting, no adult can register on the charter in two positions in the same UNIT. Being an OA member is not a position on the unit charter. But,yes, to be in the OA you must be reagistered with a unit in some position. Hope this helps, Bob

mommascout, I understand your enthusiasm and I apreciate you your comments. Mostly though I respect the fact that you understand what the program is all about. Bob

ScouterPaul, Thanks for trusting me to make the right decision.

Hi ScouterPaul, The recommended process is that the boys have the process explained to them and that each scout will get to be the Patrol Leader. You explain that after they reach first class they will hold the position for at least 6 months. So to start with lets try a patrol election to see who gets to go first. That person will get to select an Assistant Patrol Leader. Next month the Assistant Patrol Leader will become the Patrol Leader and he will get to select a new Asst. Patrol Leader. we will keep going every 30 days until everyone get a chance to do both jobs. Then we will hold a new election and start all over again. I hope this helps. Happy Scouting, Bob

OK here is my suggestion, bearing mind if your going to give a room a new coat of paint you will need to spend more time in the preparation then you do in actually painting. There are tools to gather, surfaces to prepare and furniture to move. the actual painting takes far less time. Getting adults to change takes time and preparation to as well, and there are some tools to gather. I would arrange with you local district training team for basic training for the entire committee. We took a meeting night and while the boys held their troop meeting in one room, with the SM and an ASM present, we took 15 adults (that included 10 current committee members) and presented New Leader Essentials. 10-days later while the troop had a lock in, we took those same 15 people and for 3 hours presented troop Committee Challenge, the new troop committee training program. We now have only 1 committee member and 1 ASM who haven't completed Basic Training. OK so why is this important to uniforming? The committee now understood what scouting is really about and how we dod what we do, and why the the uniform is important AND what a scout uniform really is. Now as soon as the Troop Committee Challenge was over, the scoutmaster came in and thanked every for taking a few hours to learn what scouting is really about and what an important role they each play. he told them how much he depended on each member to show the boys what it means to be in scouting by the work that they do, and the example that they set. with that heartfelt address he handed every person there their Badge of Office, their TRAINED strip and their red shoulder loops. As the trainer, I presented their Pocket Certificates, and 2 weeks later at our Court of Honor, they received their Troop Committee Challenge Certificate. At that Court of Honor committee members who never wore a uniform, were already in full uniform with their patches sewn on. No one said go get a uniform. We said what we do is important, what we do is noticed by the boys, and here are you first uniform pieces. My wife, the new Troop Outdoor Activities Chair,(without me saying a word) walked out of the training, looked at her patches and said "looks like we all get uniforms." Try this first. Then approach the adults on a one-on one personal basis and explain the positive effects that they have on boys when they are in uniform. Let them know if there was some way that they could be in uniform at Boards of Review, Courts of Honor, and other troop events it would be appreciated. If the only problem was cost, I would look at the troop buying the uniform and the family paying it back a little at at time over the next year. By the way my wife just bought the entire adult leader uniform without patches (the troop provides all basic patches for youth and adults) and the cost was $90.89, over 12 months that's only $7.50 a month. When you say that the Treasurer and Secretary don't come in contact with the boys. Why not? the Patrol Method would have the Troop Scribe taking attendance and working on the troop newsletter under the guidance and partnership of the committee Secretary. The Troop Treasurer would be collecting the patrol dues from the Patrol Treasurers and working with the committee Treasurer to track troop finances and make financial reports to the PLC. (Adult Association is another important method of scouting) So I wouldn't let them off the uniform hook, I'd get them into more contact with the scouts. Maybe some others have ideas to addas well. I'll stop typing and let my fingertips heal. Happy Scouting, Bob

Fscouter, I'd be glad to help. I need some info first. What is their job in the troop. What is your best guess as to why they don't wear the uniform? How necessary are they to the successful delivery of the scouting program to the boys? be as objective as possible. Bob

I really don't see how this could happen using the the Patrol Method I described. A lot of steps would have to fail for the tape to get there. BUT, if it did show up, I would again ask the SPL if he thought this was appropriate and give him the opportunity to have the tape put away. If he said knew it was there, and he approved it, I would point out that the scouts are not old enough to veiw this material and that I expected better leadership from him than that. Only then would I take away the tape, because of my responsibility for the safety and welfare of the scouts. By the way the scout who brought that tape would come to the next PLC to explain his decision making process! No, the tape would not get shown, and up until the last moment when it has to be taken away I will give the boy leaders the opportunity to excercise the ethical decision making that we are trying to develop. Bob

The title to this thread was supposed to be-How Could the Patrol Method have solved this. Sorry OTD (old timer's desease)

I said in my first post that these are common traits I see in units who are successful in getting scouts to wear their full uniforms. I also never said that I would not toss or dismiss an adult who was not in uniform. I said I would not recriut an adult who refused to wear the uniform. If your son wanted to be on the football team but refused to wear the uniform, I'm sure he would not be asked to be on the team. I feel the same way about an adult in scouting, if he or she wants to be on the team they need to be in uniform. They need to play scouting by the methods of scouting, not some of the methods, or just the methods they like. Uniforms is one of the basic methods. What is wrong with that? They might be a good leader without accepting all the methods but they would be a better leader if they did accept them. Why not have the better leaders? Bob

OGE, I have a good friend who is the Council Exec. in Chester County Council.