Bob White

bigbeard, Don't think I have every rule and reg memorized I don't. Or that I'm perfect I'm not and I never claimed to be. that distinction was glued to me by other posters. Don't fall for the hypothetical smoke screens others have laid down. Real life isn't as complicated as their fairy tales, and there aren't that many Policies in the Program to keep track of. Every Leader who has the slightest bit of training knows the basic Youth Protection Policies. When they learned them, it was not presented as "try not to do this" it was told to them "don't do this". Could it have been any clearer. I never said if a scout is severely injured don't get help, or make sure your your scouts are sheltered. But lets look at this again. It was poor planning on the leaders part and poor actions at camp that lead to a non-relative adult sleeping alone with a child. That could esily have been avoided. In the fairy tale of the boy in the car, let's set Youth Protection aside and look at good emergency first-aid practices. You never transport someone alone as the driver. You have to choose between concentrating on driving or concentrating on the victim. Speeding while treating a severly injured person would only create 2 casulties. A good leader would have treated the child on site and would have had an emergency plan on obtaining professional medical help. Or a good leader would have had someone stay and treat the injured person and sent someone for help. Even if you bought into the situations they fabricated, a string of bad leadership lead up to them. The theme that started this string was Broken rules or Bad leadership. Have you ever seen one without the other? Neither have I. Bob PS Can we please all get off this kick that understanding the program is a bad thing. I know and scout with a lot of leaders who know and follow the rules, and have no trouble seeing that the scouts have a fun and adventurous scouting experience. Knowing the program and delivering a scouting program are by no means mutually exclusive. In fact it is quite the opposite. The assumption a few of you have made is that I only know the books and not the field work. I'm sure none of us want to get into a debate over who has more experience, but I assure you I have spent and continue to spend as much time as a front line unit volunteer as anyone in this forum and possibly more than some.

You are right eisely, my apologies to you and rooster7 for that error. I appreciate that you would not want me making those decisions. But take yourself out of the tent and put another adult in. Years later you find out out that something did happen. You would wish that something had been done to protect that scout and any others that followed. You said there were witnesses. No there weren't. You yourself said no one else was in that tent but a child and a non-relative adult, and that everyone else was asleep. The scouting program isn't going to wade through the myriad of excuses told by leaders who could of or did abuse children. You are told right upfront in bold letters Don't do this!. If you do it it's your choice but don't act surprised at the cosequences. The BSA is not kidding about this. As a District Commissioner I was involved in a few cases and I tell you now, the councils hands are pretty much tied on this. Even if nothing happened, the fact that you would transgress such a vital rule would make you a danger to the boys we serve and you would most likely be removed. You may not want me making these decisions but there are Thousands of families who want these rules in place and they want them enforced. Bob

DD and rooster 7, I was operating within the constraints of your made up tales. How was I supposed to know that your ficticious Scoutmaster had a ficticious assistant who had a ficticious heart attack. In that case go ahead and into the woods for the lost scout. Before you go though, grab the make believe cell phone and get the invisible ambulance to come help the assistant before he plays dead. Now if we can all join the real world. In the real world kids get hurt. They get hurt by people they trust like family members, religious leaders, neighbors, and yes, scout leaders. take a look at the words in Bold type face in the Guide to Safe Scouting. They identify the activities and behaviors that will most likely result in scouts being injured or abused. They are the unbreakable policiies of BSA Youth Protection and Safety. When you cross those lines you make the choice to put someone elses child in danger. What gives you that right? Parents do not entrust their children to your care so that you can blatantly disregard their safety. "Broken rules or bad leadership?" Definitely Bad Leadership. and DD non of your corkscrew style debate will change my mind or anyone elses. Bob

rooster7 I think the info of your second post is a better message to give new leaders then one of "there are times when it's OK to break rules". 1. Good scout requires training. Had the other adults been as conscientous about careing for the scouts or had they known how to prepare for a campout, this situation would have been avoided 2. Parents don't want the rules violated (your parent calmed down, but that doesn't mean they all will). 3. There are always options. 4. Adults are reponsible for scouts welfare. The lack of leadership from the other adults helped place you in a position of expulsion or worse. I'm glad things turned out OK foro you and the scout. But I really hope the message you want to convey to readers is "plan ahead don't let this happen to you" rather than "sometimes you need to break the rules". Bob

DD What was a scoutmaster doing in the woods alone with a scout? Where was the scouts buddy? Where was the second adult? Evidendly following rules and protecting scouts from abuse are not part of the values you hold so dear. I would have expected you of all people to show no compassion for human error. So let me get this straight, you feel a scout with an extra hole in his ear lobe has severe character flaws, but an adult who wanders off into the woods with someone elses child is "to be given permission to make mistakes". I'm sorry, you don't beleive in feelings you to told us. So you must have given this some deep thought and come to this conclusion through pure logic. DD I find that truly scarey.

rooster7, The difference in your scenario is that you are speeding down the road with your own son in the car. Try speeding down the road with a bleeding child who isn't yours and the parents don't know that you are alone with him. Suddenly the story doesn't sound so noble. You have no idea how a parent wil react from what you see you as a samaritan act. Also child abuse is not always reported by the child immediately. Sometimes the facts do not surface for years and by that time dozens of boys or more could be abused. It would be irresponsible of the BSA to not to take every violation seriously or to accept every reasonable excuse. beleive me every body has a reasonable excuse. If you think the punishment is severe, it is. Youth safety is paramount to all of us. Any violation will have a high price and for good reason.Violations of Youth Protection Policies endangers our scouts, the reputation of volunteers and the reputatuion of the scouting program. It just isn't worth it. I think you underestimate the BSA's resolve in the area of youth protection. As a parent I would not want it any other way. Bob

I'll give you two places we like to use. the first is Campmor http://campmor.com if your troop sends in a leatter aon a troop letterheadwith your tax exempt # you can open a troop account and get anothe 10% off some pretty low prices on a variety of tents. Another excellent way is through Eureka tents. You can go to their main web site at http://www.eurekacampingctr.com/ to select the tent. Then call their factory outlet store at 1-888-6EUREKA, and ask if they have any factory refurbished tents available in the model you selected. The factory outlet offers A's and B refurbished tents. The A's are tents that had defects discovered during manufacturing such as dye lot differences in fabric panels and cannot be sold at retail as is. The A tents will be reduced 10 or 15%. The B tents were sold before the defect was discovered and returned by the customer. Eureka refurbishes the tent, gives it full warranty protection and then resells it for 20 to 25% off. Hope this helps, Bob

MomScouter, No problem insurance-wise as long as the guest is scout eligible or will be scout eligible (a 9 yr old little sister on a campout has no insurance protection) within a year, such as a Webelos 2. He will be protected by the same policy that covers the scouts in your unit. You are just asked not to abuse the grace period. Once a scout-age guest has been to a couple of troop meetings and a campout or two, it's time to sign them up. best of luck, Bob

Fscouter, Best of luck as the Troop progresses. Contact your District Training Chair or Districtexecutive for a trainer to help you get started. As I posted earlier you will want to do the 90-minute New Leader Essentials before you do Troop Committee Challenge. NLE lays the foundation for all other training courses in scouting. Fast Start is a short video for a new volunteer to view at home for quick orientation (it can be done in a small group as well, but it does not replace NLE). Happy Scouting, Bob White

I'm probably going to get all kinds of flak for this but here goes (I'm guessing you posted this on a forum board to generate discussion). Not to suggest that anything other then (as you admit) a major poloicy was violated in that tent. I need to ask, where were the other adults sleeping. Was there no possible combination of sleeping arrangements to protect both you and the scout from harm? Maybe someone would have to be awakened and moved. If an adult who had a son present had both used your tent, that would allow you to sleep in place of that adult in an adult tent. Everyone protected from the elements, no youth protection violated. I realize that you feel perfectly justified. But if are are ever involved in a youth protection incident you will find that the adult always has a reason for the violation. I heard an adult give what he thought was a perfectly reasonable explanation for having a lockin with no other adult present. He is no longer eligible to be in scouting ..anywhere...ever again. This is not a rule that the program takes lightly. Had word of what you had done reached a District Commissioner or District or Council Executive, you would more than likely have been removed from the program. Wouldn't some communication among the adults found a way to do what was needed without endangering the scouts safety or your reputation? I realize this is not something you let happen again, my concern is that others reading this and just learning the program might say "Oh, well see, there are circumstances when violating Youth Protection is OK". Bob

Hi merritt, Our actual calendar would be a little too extensive to print here, but I can share with you how it is developed. We plan long range from August to August. June and July are our primary planning months. We use The local school district calendars, the council/district scout calendar and the major holiday calendar to plan within and around. we also use the SM personal calendar. We use a flipchart page and the BSA wall planning calendar to rough everything out. The first step is for the patrol Leaders to find out what their patrols want to do and where they want to go. Then at a PLC meeting a master list is made. The PLC selects monthly themes for the year using the list of National Program themes and the themes available in the 3 Troop Program Planning notebooks. Then we go month by month plugging in activities to enhance the themes, determining meeting nights. (We meet 90 minutes every Monday year round, unless it is a holiday or if severe weather dictates we cancel. The SPL and Scoutmaster then clean up the rough into a final proposal that the PLC reviews for acceptance. We do not worry about other youth activity schedules, and we are pretty sure they don't worry about ours. The boys choose what they want to do when they want to do it. Do we always have 100% attendance? No, but thats OK the boys know when swim season is over they will be welcomed back. The same with Drama Club, Band, Choir, and other sports and activities.We routinely have 75% or more of our scouts at a given meeting or activity. After the PLC settles on the annual plan it goes to the troop Committee for review. Any suggestions they have go back to the PLC for consideration. Back to the Committee then as the final calendar and the troop Secretary publishes it for the parents. On occasion we have an entire grade level gone for a school event. we still hold the activity with the boys who come. Life is about choices, sometimes the choice is scouts somtimes it's not, but they always come back. The next step is ongoing as the PLC takes the long range plan and turns it into short range planning at the monthly PLC meeting. Believe me it doesn't always go as smoothly as it sounds, alot of these boys have never had the opportunity outside of scouting to plan a program on this scale. But that's where the learning and the growth happens. Hope this helps. Best of Luck Bob

DD You are a poor converstionalist who apparently likes to twist and convolute other people's statements in order to prolong a question that was long ago answered. The answers to your question, when you actually have a direct question, are in the manuals of the BSA, I invite you to read one, any one. In them you will find the answer, which I guarantee you will not like because it will not match your personal opinion. I am no longer interested in the bait you are dangling on your twisted hook. I take comfort in knowing the fish is keener than the fisherman. I wish you luck in whatever you actually do in scouting, Bob White

My error featherswill fly. I was thinking First Class also. Good question! Bob

I don't mean to downplay the importance of keeping in contact with the Webelos den and inviting them on outings. Which by the way I agree is very very important. My recommendation is to focus on the troop program. You can spend all the time in the world inviting guests to the party, but if they get there and the party is boring, everyone will leave. I would take the boys you have and have them elect a Patrol Leader. have him select an Asstistant, a Treasurer/Scribe and a Quartermaster. Sit them down and say we need to go somewhere, here are some maps and some brochures. Here are the dates I'm available. You guys pick any place you want to go. Let me know what you decide. Keep leting them make decisions and have responsibilities so that they realize how wrong the nay-sayers at school are. Then I'd have a buddy campout, when each scout could bring a scout aged friend. During the campout have the scouts teach their friend fire building, Tote N' Chip and how to campfire cook. That evening I'd have the boys plan an outing in front of their buddies to let their friends see how they get to call the shots and make the plans. I'd set a troop meeting date and tell the visiting buddies "if you'd like to go on this trip too, bring your parents to this meeting. Send the buddies home with a troop calendar, a newsletter and a personal invite from you and his scout pal. I'd do the same thing with the Webelos Den. Repeat this activity every 6 to 9 months.

If its OK I'll toss in a few 1. How many Countries had Boy Scouts before the USA? 2. What was Baden-Powell's first name? 3. What 3 Eagle required Merit Badges are not required to get Eagle? (one of my favorite questions) 4. What was BPs rank in the army? 5. There are only two ways to properly wear a neckerchief. what are they? 6. Why do the 3 fingers of the scout sign represent?

Sorry OGE I didn't even notice #6 The plaid on the Wood Badge neckerchief is the McLaren tarten. It was the Family plaid of the man who gave BP Gilwell Park. Hence, Robert Stephenson Baden-Powell Lord of Gilwell and I'm sorry again OGE cause I really have come to enjoy your posts. BUT #7 According to BP biography he "found" the beaded breast plate of Zulu chief Deni-Zulu. And the original graduates of Gilwell only got one bead on an elephant hide thong. BUT HEY! #s 7,8,and 9 look Okey Dokey. By the way, you could try asking the scouts Wood Badge questions but I doubt if many even know about Wood Badge.

Rooster7, You continue to misrepresent what I have said. I see no need to itemize those exampples because they are documented in this thread. I will however call to task one thing from your last post. You asked... You don't see how a Scoutmaster could have room for interpretation when the Scout Law merely says - "Be reverent"? Likewise for every other point of the Scout Law, there is no clear-cut definition for any of these precepts. I invte everyone to Open the Boy Scout Handbook to pages 47 through 54 under the title The Meaning of the Scout Law and tell me there is no clear explaination of what the points of the Law mean. "So far, your arguments have not convince me. I'm not trying to argue questions were raised in this thread tah many have attempted to answer. Some through past experiences, some through personal opinion, some through references to Boy Scout of America publications. Again, I doubt that anyone changes their way of scouting based on anything that any of us have written. You are certainly not going to change from anything I write, or I from your posts. I will continue to share the BSA Program as it is represented in the BSA Handbook and other offical manuals. I trust in the ability of the post readers to choose their path. In my opinion (not found in any specific manual) I have found that the scouts I've served have enjoyed and benefited from the Scouting program, not my interpretation of it, but the program as it is set by the Boy Scouts of America. I wish you and your scouts the same success. Bob

DD I forgot to include this point that you asked me to address. you sited form article So long as they are faithful to Scouting's membership philosophy, set forth below, it is for the unit to determine on the basis of considerations such as group size or youth behavior whether to admit or to continue the membership of a youth member. This is exactly what I said before. Within the scout boundaries (Scouting's membership philosophy) the CO can determine membership (admit or to continue the membership) of the scouts. Notice this does not allow The CO or the adult leaders to alter the advancement requirents. It allows the CO admit or remove scouts from membership. Thank you for supplying the appropriate by-law. Bob

OGE You asked for any corrections 1&2 W.D. Boyce was a Chicago publisher who went to London to meet Baden Powell for the publishing rights to his Scouting for Boys handbook. (in anarticle years ago in scouting magazine it was questioned as to how much of the unknown scout story was true and how much was romanticized).He was not from Peoria, although the Council whose office is in Peoria is the W.D. Boyce Council. It is called that because Boyce had a summer home in Ottowa IL at the north end of the council, and he is buried there in Ottowa. 10. According to the Boy Scout Handbook the stars stand for Truth and Knowledge (pg 10)

DD, the question you ask "Who is the BSA program is flawed. "what is the BSA program" would be more accurate. As I tried to show you in that admittedly lengthy post is that the BSA program is determined by Representatives of the scouts, scouters and Chartering organizations who use the program. You ask Where is the reg that says specifically long hair, body piercings are OK!!! There isn't one, nor is there a rule that says they are not OK. the rule that does exist and that was sited early on is that you cannot "add to" or "subtract from" any requirement in the advancement program. So no one has to show you any advancement rule other than the ones in the Boy Scout Handbook. And not you, or any of us, can add or subtract from those regulations. (see the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manial page-4 Implementing Procedures) All I'm saying is let's play by the rules of the game. If you don't like the rules that's fine, but no one is forcing you to play. But if you can violate scoutings rules what does that say to the scouts in your care? As I said before, don't sign the advancement if you don't want to. But unless you followed the rules of the program the Scout will be advanced by the appeals Board of Review. Bob

DD, "the principles of the Boy Scouts of america are found in the Scout Oath, The Scout Law, Scout motto, and Scout Slogan. You will be expected to live by these standards while you are a Boy Scout. " The Official Boy Scout Handbook page 45, first paragraph, requirement 7 of the Tenderfoot Rank. Don't slay the messenger just because you don't like the message.

Hi Featherswillfly, Good questions, but I'm confused on one. Shouldn't #9 read 5 ranks? Unless you are not counting Eagle because you give leadership to a service project. But isn't giving leadership performing community service? If you chaired a committee like Toys for Tots aren't you doing community service? Bob

DD, My apologies for not defining the people and processes that determine the program and policies of the BSA. Here is an excellent explanation. the entire article can been read on You'll note that the bulk of the decision making at the national level is done by adult and youth vounteers representing Charteriing Organizations and Scout Units throughout the country. http://www.faqs.org/faqs/scouting/rec.scouting.issues/section-16.html The NEB is composed of between 48 and 52 adult members and three to five youth members. This board meets every other month to discuss and finalize recommendations made by the various Group Directors, their volunteer Committees, or by individual Board members or the Chief Scout Executive. There are seven professionals whom are members of this board: the Chief Scout Executive, the four Regional Directors (whom also serve as Associate Chief Scout Executives), the National Director of Operations and the National Director of Support Services. These professionals do NOT have a vote but they are, as you can guess, very influential in the decision-making ability of this body. The rest of the Board is composed of volunteers whom are key business, industry, civic and religious leaders from all parts of the nation and all walks of life. To keep a youth slant on the actions, the National Chief of the Order of the Arrow, the National Explorer President, and up to three other youth leaders (selected by their peers or through a national competition of some sort) are voting members of the NEB. The Chief Scout Executive serves as the "secretary" to the Board and his or her performance is tied to overall program success. The National Executive Board "hires" and "fires" the CSE and all other national-level senior professionals. Youth boards also make a significant impact on the adoption of national policies and procedures. The Assembly of Chiefs, the section and regional chiefs along with the National Chief and National Vice-Chief of the Order of the Arrow (assisted by two professionals and six adult volunteers) make policy and recommendations for the Order of the Arrow, Scouting's national honor camping society. Finally, the National Council of the Boy Scouts of America serves as the final "stamp of approval" on all significant changes to the program of the BSA. The National Council is composed of at least three representatives from each of the BSA's local Councils: The Council President, Council Commissioner, and one other elected representative. The Council Executive is not a member. Two or more (depending on size of the local Council) volunteers are elected yearly to serve as National Council Representatives, a job that nowadays carries more weight than it used to. The National Council meets as a whole body once a year. As you can probably figure out by all of this, whatever the National Exec Board approves, more than likely will be approved by the National Council after it has already been implemented in their local Councils. This is also the reason why when new programs are announced, SOME local Councils delay implementing it until a national vote is taken on the program change or other issue. Those are the bodies that make up the decision-making ability of the BSA. While we're talking about professional management of various committees and boards, we're also talking about volunteers --you and me-- making up those boards and committees, with a larger say than the professionals and reflecting our Council's make-ups and population.

Rooster7 Please consider 2 things. Am I playing Baden-Powell by saying "Here is the the BSA program according to the BSA, we should follow it". Or are those who say "Here's what I say the BSA program is so that's what I'm going to do instead" actually the ones pretending to be the outliner of the program? Secondly, It appears your argument is based on a false premise. Different chartering organizations have different perceptions as to what is meant by the Scout Law and Scout Oath. The Scout Oath and Scout Law are defined by the Boy Scouts of America not by the Chartering Organization. Those definitions are written in every Boy Scout Handbook. Letting Each organization determine the scout values would be like each pro-football team having there own game rules. The League sets the rules, the ownership of the team chooses to join the League, and select its own players and coaches. The coaches are required to play the game by league's rules, not by what the individual owners or coaches decide the rules are. The Charter Organizations, who choose to use scouting, agree each year to follow the BSA rules and program methods. The BSA allows the Charter Organization to choose membership within certain membership boundaries. Those boundaries are that the Chartered organization membership rules can be more restrictive then those set by the BSA, but they cannot be less restrictive then those set by the BSA. These membership rules only determin whether you get to be on the team, not how the game is played. So in your specific case study the scout who would not shave can be restricted from membership by the Muslim Chartered Org. However, once a player (scout) is accepted on the team (the troop) the owners (Chartered Org.) and the coaches (scout leaders) must play the game by the rules of the league (the BSA). At no time have I told anyone to operate a troop MY way. All I've said is "here are the scout methods and rules according to the BSA". I still don't understand why some posters find the recommendation of using the program so offensive, or why some feel using the program so difficult. Bob

There are entire books that try to identify define and summarize the content of Family Values and so I'm not sure that there is sufficient space to express them here. However, for my family, we find that the values taught by our chosen faith are the ones we embrace as our values. We find nothing contradictory between those values and the values of scouting. Bob