Bob White

Petal_Ms_Scouter, No scam but a major update is in progress. Over the next 4 years nearly every Merut Badge booklet will be brought up to speed with modern information and techniques. That will mean most will also undergo requirement changes. After that you can expect most to remain stable for awhile, except for the computer merit badge which, because of the dynamic nature of the industry, may need almost constant updating to remain current. Bob Bob

I have to agree with sctmom. If we are trying to teach the scouts to take care of the gear, us throwing it in the mud seems counter-productive to me. I'd work with the Senior Patrol Leader to have the Patrol Leader or patrol Quartermaster clean it again since it was his responsibility to see that it was done right the first time, and have the patrol miss activitities until the work is completed properly. Bob

Bob here again merritt, Sorry to here about the 5 members. Is it a fairly new troop or has there been a steady decline. I'm not trying to be nosey, just hoping we can help you in some way to isolate the problem and find a solution. Bob

sctmom, I agree with many of the things that have been said about handling things in a positive way. I would address the leader face to face on the problem. Try "you know (Joe) I was thinking, there must be a better way to teach boys about good camping habits than throwing thing s around, let me pour you a cup a coffee we can swap some ideas" or something to that effect. But I agree with you, throwing things, adult temper explosiions and punishing the innocent rather than the responsible is not setting a good example for the scouts to learn from. Bob

Welcome NVScouter, There is also a very good ceremonies book called Pack and Den Ceremonies it has scripts for every occassion. It should be available at your Council Service Center. Bob

I misunderstood you, sorry. I agree that the COR must first determine his membership. Bob

sctmom had a great answer. (by the way derek's mom, I hope you're not helping too much, as we remind the parents in my son's troop "We only give one of you the merit badge, there shouldn't be any doubts about who really earned it.)

Assuming that the Scout's girlfiend (and I have to say this is one of the more outrageous situations that this string has concocted)is the scout's age, he would be battling charges of statuatory rape. I doubt that advancing a rank in Boy Scouts would be high on his list of things to do. I would highly recommend his removal by the CO for behavior that dishonored both organizations. I agree a BOR can be used for other puposes, however for somrthing on the scale of removing membership, the parents should be involved. Since the BOR does not have autority to remove membership it would be inappropriate to have such a discussion at that time. BORs should be motivating not threatening or punishing.

NJScouter, Don't forget that our founding fathers also wore wigs and stockings in public.;0

Rooster7 "He is suppose to represent the values of the chartering organization. If that were true then a Jewish boy, who belonged to a troop chartered by the Catholic church, would be expected to believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God or he couldn't advance. As long as a boy is a member of the troop he has only to meet the standards of scouting. Which to my understanding is in keeping with the standards of every chartering organization or they wouldn't choose to have a scout unit. Can anyone think of any organization using scouting that doesn't accept scoutings ideals? Bob

That converstion would best be done at a committee meeting, with the parents present, and the COR. The committee cannot remove membership. It takes the authority of the COR or Charter Executive Officer. Save the BOR to talk about advancement not membership. (My recommendation)

My son has several scout t-shirts; summer camps, Philmont, the red white and blue BSA and the rappelling one from the scout catalog. He wears those to school quite often and says they have started some very interested conversations from teachers and students. He tells them of the places he's been hiking and camping. In a class excercise one day the students had to write positive statements about the others in their class. My son recieved several comments an having cool t-shirts. (He's in 8th Grade)

I'll add one more thing about the sleepy scout. A lot of that behavior is controllable by knowing the needs of the boys. It was said the scout got to sleep at the same time as the other scouts. But what wasn't said was what that time was. Scouts work hard on a campout, and a lot of units that I've seen let their Scouts stay up way too late. These guys need a minimum 8 to 10 hours of actual sleep. Most leaders need a lot less. just because the boys go to bed when we do doesn't mean their bodies are ready to get up when we get up. Since the leaders are responsible for the scouts health, we need to see they bed down and are quiet by a resonable hour. My preference is 10 p.m. at the very latest. Bob

As professor Henry Higgins would say. "I think he's got it, by Jove he's got it!" DD asks (and I quote) "Ed, I dont disagree with that, in fact, I think a boy who wears make-up, lipstick and high heels can live by the Oath and Laws, dont you? The fact remains, would you deny a CO to make membership rules for appearance?" And that is the point. The most behavior that has been discussed is controlled in the BSA by allowing the Chartered Organizations to control membership. The BSA says that the chartered organization can set its own membership standards as long as they are more stringent than those of the BSA. The dress wearing, purple haired, tatooed, body piercing, boy with the heart of gold can be restricted from scouting by the membership requirements of the Chartered Organization. Several posters have confused membership with advancement. The only advancement rules regarding appearance say that the scout should wear as complete and correct a uniform as possible, and that a scout is clean in appearance. So lets get the dress off this guy and get him in a uniform. Now let's say the Chatered Organization does not have a membership rule against hair coloring or pierced ears. Can we withhold advancement beacause we feel it is not reflective of the Chartered Organizations Ideals? NO If they Chartered Organization feels that way then they should remove his membership. Unless they do, you can only restrict advancement based on the non-completetion of the requirements in the Boy Scout Handbook. There is no requirement or requirement restriction on hair color or jewelry.

I see the most important thing, as far as troop finances go, is that the boys are involved in the fundraising effort. I see no problem if they choose to concentrate on projects rather than dues, as long as everyone participates. The benifit of dues is that it is a guarantee that everyone participated equally. My son's troop does $5 monthly. We recommended to the parents that the scouts be given specific responsibilities or goals at home to earn this money. The money is collected by patrol Scribe. They turn it in monthly to the Troop Scribe and he records it with the help of the Committee Treasurer. This way the boys have another leadership growth opportunity.

evmori, That's not as easy as it used to be. It's been so long since we've used 2 pole canvas. It takes to much work to drop the nylon ones by comparison. I would prefer letting the bugler run an accoustics test inside the tent. Bob

Just curious, as it looks like I am going to be the Training Coordinator for my District soon, how the new training continuum is being delivered in your area. A) Can you have Trainers come to your unit to train? B) Are you going to use the committee offices fo Troop and Pack Trainers? C) How often have the new courses like New Leader Essentials, Cub Job Specific, Scoutmaster/Asst Scoutmaster Job Specific and troop Committee Challenge been offered? D) Is anyone Going to the New Wood Badge this year? E) Is anyone going to Philmont Training Center? F) What times of year, in your opinion would it be best to offer; -Tiger Den Leader Training -Wolf /Bear Den Leader Training -Webelos Leader Training -Webelos Outdoor -Cubmaster/Asst Cubmaster Training -Pack committee Training -BALOO -Intoduction to Outdoor Skills -Scoutmaster/Asst. Scoutmaster Leader Training Don't feel like you need to answer all the questions. Pick and choose the ones that are close to your heart. Thanks for the input, Bob

But DD, you haven't been talking about mistakes. You've been talking about knowingly breaking the rules because you felt your excuse was more important than the rule, or the rule didn't matter. I have never taken anyone to task for breaking a rule they didn't know about. Only the rules they knew about and ignored. Every disagreement we've had you claimed you either knew and disagreed with, or once you were told where the rule was, you created skewed arguments in order to avoid responsibility. You're not asking to be forgiven mistakes you seem to want approval to continue doing whatever you want without reprisal.

Hi again Merritt, A lot of the troops in our area use the 2 meeting rule. personally I have no problem with it IF the scouts in the Patrol Leaders Council made the rule and not an adult. My prefered method is to help the boys build such a fun program that the scouts wouldn' want to do something else. A good program is a far better motivator than rules and punishments. I've been in troops that met weekly and others that met every other week with Patrol meetings in between, and still others that met for 3 weeks followed by a Patrol Leaders Coucil Meeting on the 4th week. Each system had its own strengths and weaknesses. And each for the most part worked just fine. you just need to find out what works for your group. Remember your not married to ant one practice once you choose. As time passes and members change you may find you have to shift your thinking on this. Merritt asre you saying there are 5 in his Patreol or 5 in the entire Troop?

Hi sctmom, Here are some methods you might try. A) Have an Assistant Senior patrol Leader who is responsible for Health and Safety during activities. He could be the one responsible for inspecting the patrol site with the Patrol Leader. The ultimate responsibility for seeing that the patrol Gets the Job Done is the Patrol Leader's. I would make sure through the Senior Patrol Leadser that the Patrol Leaders understand if the dishes need rewashing that they will be the on's scrubbing. B)Actually depending on the type of tent, they are supposed to be stuffed. Nylon tents especially can develop leaks along vreases where they have repeatedly folded. Check with the tent manufacturer for their recommendation. However if a tent is not being cared for, that is the another story. Each Patrol could have its own Quartermaster who would be responsible for making sure that gear is treated correctly. it would also be a way to give more scouts some leadership opportunities. Again its the Patrol Leaders job to make sure the job gets done. So if it's not done I'd have the QM get the PL to fix it. After a few times of this the PL will make sure the job gets done right the first time. C)try scheduling a fun activity for the morning when breakfast should be done. Stick to the schedule. Any patrol that is up, fed, and cleaned-up, can leave for the activity. The other patrols can go when they are caught up. Never let part of a patrol go ahead. They are a team and the team stays together. If one or two scouts keep the patrol from a good activity a couple of times you can bet the situation will improve. Peer pressure can be a powerful motivator. I hope this helps Bob PS You guys are a lot more fun to play with than those other guys on the politics forum.

Nice try DD but I doubt that anyone bought that little tap dance you tried to give us. My answer is I only presented a scenario with the SM lost and alone with the Scout. I did not, as Bob embellished, say the SM wandered off into the woods with someone elses child, clearly that would be a violation, and surely you can give me more credit than that, at least I hope you can. You didnt say a Scoutmaster and his son, and we were talking of potential Youth Protection violations, and you knew that an adult with their son was not a violation. You were insinuating a scout not a son, and everyone who read that post knows it. You put yourself in a corner that you cant get out of. At least Ive stayed consistent in my concern to stay on the course the BSA has set for all of us. You on the other hand send some very mixed messages, the last of which OGE and I called you on, and your attempt to slide out was weak at best. I have no problems with scouters who say you know, I made a mistake or I need to find a way to do this better But, as just another scouter, one of tens of thousands who care about the program and the scouts, it does rankle me to read your comments where, its OK to violate scoutings rules, but not DD's rules.

eagle90, First of all let me thank you for your approach. It's one thing to say "here is a situation where it's OK to violate Youth Protection" and a far differnet thing to say "what can I do in this situation so I don't violate youth protection." Now to your dilema which I think alot of leaders have. 1. (this is probably the best method) I know of many units who say to the parents, "No registered leader is allowed to be alone with a scout, it is a national rule for everyone's protection. It will be necessary for you to have someone pick them up, whether it is you or another parent. We expect to here between these hours. We will call you as we get near town. you will need to have someone here or at home when we call" 2. Have 2 cars, one follows the other. 3. Have the parents of the last house meet you at the home of the next to last scout. 4. Last resort, The rule is stay in view of another adult, if you feel that travel on a public road is staying in view, then you can try to protect your family that way. I say protect your family because that is the other edge of the sword in Youth Protection. Let's say that scout who spend a night in a tent with a well meaning leader, decides to claim years done the road, that he was molested that night (and I'm am in no way saying he was). As soon as the BSA finds out you violated the Youth Protection Policies and stayed alone in the tent with a child you will be left to fend for yourself. Lawyer fees, court fees, financial settlements, will all come from your pocket. Even if you choose to protect yourself with your own liability umbrella in addition to scouting's, you may likely be abandoned by your Insurance company for violating this standard that you were trained to follow. Think of the harm you expose your family to, just to do what you thought at the time, to be a small violation. As long as you stay within the bold print in the Guide to Safe Scouting and Youth Protection, not only will the boys be safer but you and your family will recieve legal defense and have all fees and fines paid for through the BSA. That coverage and protection comes with a small price tag. We need to stay in the rules. Bob

evmori, When did I ever say that the boy didn't come first? Don't let that ficticious bleeeding boy in the car snowball you. There is no reason that this program cannot be carried out using the methods, the procedures and the rules of the BSA. That's like saying you can't drive a car without breaking a law. After all look how many laws there are. But millions of drivers go all day long without breaking the law. Some do break it, some in little ways some in big ways. When they get caught they get punished. Some in big ways some in little, others even get off with just a warning. Scouting is no differnt. What concerns me, in my role in scouting, is that some leaders look at youth protection as a minor violation and it's not. Violating Youth protection is the Queen Mother of all violations and carries the greatest penalty. Why? You said it yourself "The first word in BSA is BOY." To say that you can't provide a quality scouting program without breaking any rules is simply not true. It's a matter of the choices you make. Our society is far more complicated and has far more laws than scouting. Does that mean you teach your scouts that they can't function successfully in the world without breaking laws? I would hope not. Bob

I Ditto Eagle69. The Eureka Tetragon 7 is an excellent buy. It is a easy to erect 3-man tent. which means to me it's made for two people plus gear. We teach the scouts to pack everything in ziplocks to weather proof the contents and show them easy ways to keep the packs outdoors. That way there are no frames being dragged across the floors and the tents last a lot longer. don't know the current price but a few months back you could get one for $62.10 plus shipping. Bob

TYPO that should have read "or don't make sure your scouts are sheltered