Bob White

Ed, NO. Bob PS That's why it is necessary for for the Merit Badge counselors to be trained (sorry fo having to use that word again). If the District or Council recruits the counselor, then the District or Council is required to train them. If the unit recruits the counselor it is the units responsibility to train them. There is a Merit Badge Counselor Training syllabus available through the Council Service Center (they should provide it at no charge). It takes about 60-90 minutes as I recall.

You might be interested in knowing that the man reponsible for writing the entire BSA aquatics program is Al Cahill. Al also wrote the Red Cross program. He spoke annually at my Scout Roundtables when I lived in NY. Al would tell you he wrote the BSA program first and then based the Red Cross program on the BSA one. He would also admit that the BSA course is more challenging overall. For many years Al was the Director of New York State Beaches and made sure that the BSA lifeguard was complete enough to get a scout employment as a NY parks Lifeguard. Just a little trivia for you. Bob White

Shemgren, In section 1 of the Guide To Safe Scouting it states "A unit leader may not serve simultaneously in any other position within the same unit." The key words being, "in the same unit". although I would never recommend someone to be a Cubmaster and Scoutmaster at the same time, nothing in the scouting regulations, at this time, prohibit it. Bob White

The use of learning stations sounds like a lot of fun. I would caution you on two things however. 1. I'm concernered about making this a race. When you emphasize "I what to make it a contest to see who can become a scout the fastest" it could easily be interpreted by a scout that, if he doesn't win, he is not as good a scout as another boy. The boy who finishes seventh should feel no less accomplished than the boy who finishes first. They are all Scouts. 2. Be careful how you interpret and teach requirement #7. this is often misunderstood by leaders. It reads "understand and agree to live by the Scout Oath or Promise, Law, Motto, Slogan and the Outdoor Code. ". They are not required to recite from memory, that does not become an advancement element until Tenderfoot. This is meant to be a counseling session, where these ideals are explained and they discuss how they fit into their home, school, community and scouting life. And then the scout is asked to accept these ideals. It should not be rushed through. This is where the foundation of the scouting ideals is built.

Chippewa29, I agree with dad. Nobody learns to swim by standing on the edge of the pool and watching. They have to get in the water. Leadership is no different. It's the Scoutmaster's primary responsibility to train Junior Leaders. Some scouts will learn leadership at a different pace than others, but that doesn't change our responsibility to them. Consider letting the Patrol Leader choose an Assistant. Even if the PL is doing fine, someone needs to be ready to stand in for him when he is absent. Then let the scout who needs a position take over for the position of the scout who became the APL. He may need more coaching than the other boys, but that's what the program is there for. Bob

Ed, I understand your point completely. But a non- parent is just as capable as being too easy on the requirements as a parent. The odds do not change. In either case if the scout has met with a registered MB Counselor and the card has been signed, people can question all they want but they can't take back the Merit Badge. Regardless of your personal feelings toward the topic or how well intentioned your actions, the fact remains that you do not have the authority to make that rule. If a scout brings in a Blue card signed by a qualified and registered MB counselor, even if they are a parent or other relative, you must accept it.

But thats my point eagle90. you are working together as a scout unit, in uniform and keeping the bulk of the proceeds. The Park we are discussing is taking the bulk of the procedds, the scouts and scouters cannot look like scouts and I doubt that they all get to work near each other. In addition it would 60 of them working an 8-hour shift to make the same amount as your rummage sale. I'm not saying that OGE or anyonelse shouldn't do this. I was merely commenting that it is not particularly profitable for anyone other than the commercial host and that a disproportionate amout of the money raised is shared with the volunteer organization. Bob Bob

Ed, it's not that I don't understand your point of view. It's just that the BSA, who has the sole legitimate authority over all advancement rules and regulations, not says a parent can, its says the unit and individuals cannot say they can't. It's a simple matter of who is empowered by the Boy Scouts of America to make that decision. In the case of Advancement only the BSA can decide. The decision is that parents, as long as they are qualified and registerd, can sign. If you question the adult's qualifications you can ask the Council Advancement Committee to review the qualifications. Unless they remove the adult from being a registered merit Badge Counselor it is out of your hands. Bob

eagle90 Don't get me wrong, I enjoy scout fellowship. I look forward to scout fellowship. But when we are talking about funraising and you say 'look beyond the money" I have to think that is kind of counter productive to the purpose of fundraising. I socialize for fellowship, I play games for fellowship, I even attend some meetings for fellowship. but I don't intend to spend a lot of time in fundraising, so when I do it, and when I ask others to do it, I expect it to be worth my time and theirs. I also expect that the bulk of what I earn to go to scouting. I mean no disrespect to OGE I enjoy and agree with almost every thing he shares. But as a fundraiser the event he suggests has few rewards compared to a lot of other available resources. * it makes far more money for the business concern than scouting.. * he cannot wear a scout uniform or even discus that he is raising money for scouting. (it is a brand name product or service) * The time invested to income generated ration is very lopsided. A single scout selling Popcorn (Just as one example) can get a far greater return in about 90 minutes. While they wear their uniform and increase the visibility of scouting and only a third of the money raised goes to a commercial business. I can see how working at the amusement park would be fun, I don't deny that, and certainly any money for the troop helps. I just see how the park has marketed this as a boon for the community when really it is just a way for them to get cheap labor and avoid what would otherwise be State and Federally regulated employment protections and benefits. The value of services being provided to the park far exceed the revenue they are sharing with the volunteer organizations. I don't think this is genuine philanthropy, it's actually a profitable employment tool for the park, thinly disguised to take advantage of the good will of community volunteers. Just my opinion. Bob

One wonders how this can be, in light of the standard "group" merit badge instruction associated with just about every BSA Council Summer Camp? I would agree that individual testing is best, but would also argue that individual testing at summer camps, while desirable, is not reality. The lack of individual testing at your summer camp is less a comment on the valitity of the BSA merit badge methods and more a question of the quality of instruction allowed at your summer camp. Remember there are hundreds of summer camps in the country and most follow these rules without any problem. The summer camps my son has attended have been very good at following these requirements. Please be carefull of setting your own advancement policies as stated in several of these posts. No unit has the authority to do that. The BSA is very specific about the primary rule of advancement which is, ALL advancement policies are set by the BSA and no unit, individual or committee can alter these rules in any way. bob White

The BSA supports the use of the troop having it's own list of registerd and qualified MB counselors. What is not encouraged is the use of the troop program for merit badge instruction, with a few exceptions. The reason being is the troop meeting has other purposes. The reason for 119 merit Badges is so that each scout may choose their own path of advancement and not reach the ranks by a cookie cutter method, where all scouts in a troop have the same merit badges and MB experiences. Troop meetings are where boys learn to lead and are introduced to skills that they will paractice and use in order to advance. it was never meant to be a merit Badge classroom. This type of scouting is often seen in troops who falsely make the attainment of the Eagle Scout Rank the ultimate goal of scouting. It is not and was never meant to be. The problem with group instruction is that it often leads to group testing and evaluation. The Advancement Policies states specifically that all testing is to be done on an individual basis. The troop meeting should introduce a Merit badge and perhaps lead scouts through a requirement or two in a hands on activity. Then the scouts can be told that, if they are interested in continuing toward the Merit Badge, theycan see the Scoutmaster for a blue card and contact information for an approved MB counselor. This entire process is found in the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual, published by the BSA. I hope this helps, Bob White

If what you say is true then your council advancement committee has exceeded their authority as eztablished in the Advancement Committee Policies and Prodedures manual. The manual actually recomments that recruiting Merit Badge counselors who are qualified to do numerous Merit Badges within a catergory is recommended. It also states that there is no limit to the number of Merit Badges a single scout is allowed to complete with the same MB counselor as long as the counselor is qualified in that area. The number of of counselors a scout sees before Eagle is far less relevant than the quality of the instruction he receives. Besides it would be rare, to say the least, that any single MB counselor would be legitimately qualified to to counsel every required Merit Badge.

Sorry to disagree Ed but the Advancement Policies and Procedures manual specifically states that qualified and registered MB counselors may counsel any scout including their own son or other relatives.

Hi OGE, Not meaning to sound a pessimist but...isn't DORNEY PARK taking major advantage of you. If they had to employ a person to do that work, Dorney would have to pay a wage, workers compensation, employee benefits, etc. It would cost them alot more than a mere $6.25 an hour they are donating. Your unit would make more money if you donated 8 hrs worth of your salary and you took the tax write-off insted of Dorney getting it and evading their responsibilities as an employer. (plus you wouldn't have to work 8 hours in a amusement park uniform.) Just another way to look at this. Bob PS, My son donated 5 hours of his time selling Boy Scout Popcorn, he made $285 for the Council, and $285 for his Troop and his Scout account and he got to wear his uniform while he did it.

The biggest problem I have with this issue, (my personal opinion about homosexuality aside) is that the people who want to make scouting change on this topic, want to do so for political reasons. They want to use the scouting program to legitamize a social/political stand. This program is about leadership and citizenship development, not politics. I will reject anyone's efforts to use the BSA for their own self-promotion and self interest. This is not about the boys, and that is what makes it wrong. Bob White

The place to look is in the fine print of the tour permits. That is where all the required rules are . Uniform wear during travel is not there. I do however support the practice of puttin the uniform on when you leave the vehicle. It is easier to keep an eye on the boy's locations and as we all know the boys behave sharper when they look like scouts. Bob

I agree with Dan, A trained asst. Scoutmasters for the New Scout Patrols and for the Venture Patrols are very important to a successful program. The key to getting a troop to act as patrols is to talk to them and treat them as patrols. Have every deecision be a patriol decision. help them to understand that the troop is not broken up into patrols but that patrols gather to form a troop. Bob White

It is difficult if not impossible, due to the knot hanging in the middle of the medal, to display the palm in the center of the ribon. (I found out while helping a scout pin his palm on for a District dinner last night.) Bob

As I understand the program, the goal is not to fill all the positions but to give each scout a position of responsibilitry as a tool to teach leadership. Bob

hunteje, According to the BSA Insignia guide, there is no specification for eagle palm arrangements other than they are to be affixed to the ribbon of the Eagle Medal. Bob

The Patrol Method is designed so that every scout in a troop can have a position. The greatest benefit is that every boy can then have a specific responsibility to his patrol or troop. It is far mor difficult for a boy to miss a meeting or event if he feels personally needed for the unit to function well. It is difficult for many adults to perform two leadership roles simutaneously even after all their years of learning opportunities. Imagine the difficulty a child has, as he is just learning leadership, to try and do two or more jobs. I would be very hesitant to put such a burden on a young boy. Bob

I appreciate that all of the posters believe their methods are valid, but I can't help thinking as I read and reread some of the methods that the adult would never do this to someone who was of a higher social or authority standing, or of physical dimensions exceeding their own. The only thing that makes the use of these methods possible is the leaders physical size and threat of authority. If a junior leader tells a scout that it's time for breakfast (or time to fix breakfast if he is cooking) and that if he is not up and going in 5 minutes he will not eat breakfast, and then you follow through on what you say, the scout will get up. If he doesn't get up then that is his choice, and he will soon learn that it's a bad choice. If a patrol leader after seeing the example set of throwing eqipment in mud or tosssing water on a scout took it upon himself to follow your example, and equipment was damaged, would it be his fault, or yours? I just feel that there is nothing you can teach a scout through punishment or anger that can't be taught through respect and real life cause and effect. I would never intentionally model a behavior for a scout that he could not actually use as he matures into an adult. Bob

Tom, If you asked 50 different scouters you would get 50 differsent answers. Here's my two cents. A picture of Model Site depends on the individual location but here are features I would look for. * Patrols camping separated from each other. * Tents pitched properly depending on the terrain and the weather. * Cooking and garbage storage are dealt with away from the tent area and in the proper manner. * No litter * Fire safety rules followed * Personal gear put away when not in use. * Minimal camp improvements so that we can appreciate the beauty of God's work not the gizmos of man's.

FScouter, Although many troops have a policy within their unit that says boys travel in uniform, there is no such requirement placed on the unit by Mutual of Omaha or by the BSA in the Local or National Tour permit regulations. Bob

Mom Scouter, Keep in mind that many of the merit badge pamphlets haven't changed in several years. But it is necesarry to keep current with information in order for the MB to be useful and meaningful to the scout. Many posters have pointed out that MB and advancement requirements are aavailable on line. However these are just the requirements. It is important that the scouts have the MB pamphlets because the information required to meet those requirement are in the pamphlet. Without that information the scouts are at a great disadvantage. The material is not available on the internet only because it is copyrighted. The BSA pays a lot of money to develop these materials and the sales of these books help to cover the cost of that development. Bob