Bob White

"Of course it is also problematic that BSA resources are sometimes written in murky language open to competing interpretations," No, they really aren't. In fact considering that some are actually written by lawyers the resources of the BSA are written in exetremely simple language. It is true that some people try to obscure the language in order to weasel out of following the program, but there is nothing in the resources of the BSA that can not be easily comprehended by anyone with the a high school education. "or even on occasion, that two separate BSA resources appear to contradict each other." With all the resources on scouting avaliable in the BSA you would be hard pressed to find a half dozen examples of that. Even if you did there are ways to get the answer clarified. "What's a poor scouter to do?" 1) get trained 2)read the manuals that affect your position 3) when in doubt get QUALIFIED help. As an example the national office has telephones. As for the unit /CO relationship, if what you have does not look like what the BSA program shows, that is NOT the BSA's fault. Nor should you expect the BSA to solve that problem without your involvement. Lots...LOTS of units have excellent relationships with their CO. Here is the short cold heartless truth of it. The CO OWNS the Unit, the volunteer WORKS FOR the CO. If the two cannot get along it has NOTHING to do with the BSA program. Learn to play nice together or end your relationship, but stop blaming others. Need help? Not a problem, if the volunteers in your scouting District know their jobs then there is help for you to improve things. But quit blaming the BSA for a problem that they did not create. What I take personally are the personal attacks leveled at me when a person asks a question about the BSA program but then doesn't like the fact that there is an answer to it in the BSA. I also think that a lot of good people get attacked on this forum by folks who do not know and do not want to learn the BSA program. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Sure, if that is all that was ever written or taught by the BSA about the use of chemical fuels, but its not. LisaBob There are over 300 councils and over 1200 districts in the BSA. When you realize the percentage of volunteers just on this forum who do not yet know or have refused to acceept the elements of the scouting programs, is it any surprise that there are some volunteers in some districts who find there way in to District and council position who do not know what they are doing? Its not just unit leaders who need to learn the program, nor is it an excuse to put all the blame on trainers. Trainers cannot stop you from reading a handbook. Each person needs to take responsibility for their own capabilities and development. There are ample resources for a person to learn their job in scouting, In person training is just one of many.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

"One reason perhaps is in some cases i.e. actual unit relationship with their chartering org, BSA has a head-in-the-sand idea. The BSA ideal relationship is great but in reality it is not always the case. What specific reference are you refering to? Do you expect the BSA references to explaion the right way or address every possible problem that a unit/Co relationship may encounter? "Another point that leads folks away is when some professionsal Scouters are pinned down about the literature they often will say that BSA literature is a Guide rather than "hard and fast rules!" But in fact some BSA references are just guidllines while others ARE "hard and fast rules". When you talked to the professional scouters, depending on which documents were you asking about, they may have answered you correctly. The value of mentioning the references in the post is to avoid two opposing views from being a disagreement between two scouters of unknown knowledge and experience and instead focus on an answer or solution based on what the BSA program IS according to the BSA. It is astounding the number of posters on this forum who debate what the BSA program is even AFTER they are shown the answer in an offical BSA resource.

Actually it is the council advancement chair at the council level that is the ultimate sign off. Yes, the council volunteers, regardless of what committee they serve on, have a responsibility to know their jobs their resposnibilities and the rules, regulations and policies that effect them...just as a unit leader does. So to say that the mentor, who is usually a scout leader isn't responsible for knowing this is a hard sell indeed, how in fact can the person mentor if they are not knowledgable and current with the procedures involved? You can't just say that "oh the council volunteers should know what they are doing not me as a unit leader. You should all know the program, after all you all agreed to follow it, right?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

LC Scouter is correct. But remember when he says 'National did it' that "natonal" like council, is mostly made of volunteers. It was volunteer committees within the Cub Scout Division who decided that it would be a good thing to have separate recognitions for Cub Pack volunteers. So Cub volunteers created recognitions for Cub volunteers. As LC Scouter points out that may or may not change in the future. Awards come and go all the time in the BSA. But for today it is what it is, tomorrow...who knows.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

It appears the Supply Division haas already answered that question. If you recieved notice that prices would be increasing throughout the catalog then that is probably what is going to happen. What those specific prices will be will likely not be known until the effective date You could try contacting your local scout shop and ask if they have the new pricing yet.

"If an Eagle project is outside the sphere of Scouting why cant money be solicited? (as long as its done in the name of the other organization)" It can be "In the Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook it does stay that fund-raising is permitted only for securing materials or supplies needed to carry out your project. It does, but you are misunderstanding what they passage is about. It is instructing the scout that the project itself cannot be a fundraiser. "In that instance the Scout should advertise this fund-raising as benefiting his Eagle Scout project. Donations of materials or supplies may be requested. Funds (cash) may not be directly solicited. Your council/district instructions are contrary to the fundraing policies of the BSA and they have no authority to alter those rules. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

A bit of unnecessary hostility there eh jblake. When did the BSA tell you or anyone else that you have to chnage anything about your uniofrm? They have alredy explained that you can keep wearing the uniform you have for as long as you want, or mix pieces with the new uniform. That's an awful lot of machismo posturing over something that you already know is not an issue. After all you could have just as easily said, "I have decided not to change my troop numerals till they need replacing." My goodness! Uniform Police? Fire? Frightened children? That's an awful lot of self-imposed melodrama in defense of a stance you don't even need to take, isn't it?

See what I mean?

Could the reason be that some people do not know what the BSA program is? So when they say one thing and the BSA says another they strike back rather than seeing it as an opportunity to learn the program? Consider how many times have we seen examples of leaders on this forum accept as fact the many urban legends of scouting and not know the actual program? Cutting corners off of Totin Chip Cards Needing to be in uniform when traveling to be covered by insurance Fixed Blades Knives prohibited Scout Badge being a rank Two deep leadership needed on Patrol Outings Patrol activities in general Scouts using power tools The rules for advancement Smoking at scout activities The role of the Charter organization Punishing scouts Electing and selecting of Junior leaders The role of the council and district Just to name a few of the things that have been heavily debated on this forum for years with posters, despite the fact that the BSA has specific and readily available answers on all these topics and more. Often, after a few posters give their 'opinion', one or more of the few posters who either know the program or at least know the resources of the program will answer using supported facts from the BSA. How are the other posters suppossed to react? You would think something along the line of, "that's what the BSA program says? I didn't know that, how exactly does that work?" But that's not what happens here is it?

Certainly the best recogognition there is to helping others is the satisfaction we find in our own hearts. And a mature person has the ability to reward themselves without wanting reward form others. But for centuries mankind has looked for ways to recognize others in their community for their positive contributions, whether it was a laurel wreath, a a medal on a ribbon, a beaded breast plate, or a piece of cloth. The purpose of the award isn't becasue the reeiver needs it, but because the givers of the award want the recipient to know that his or her efforts were noticed and appreciated. So what if the piece of cloth means nothing to you, or you lack to the courtesy to be appreciative that others find you noteworty, that does not mean that the recognition should not be offered or should not exist. If the act of being appreciated for one's efforts is so distasteful then do not go the the ceremony, do not accept the award, send it back if it arrives in the mail. But allow the giver of the recognition to still enjoy the act of appreciating others. There is great value to any community in the pursuit of doing worthy things. "Don't worry when you are not recognized, but strive to be worthy of recognition." Abraham Lincoln

I don't know that you can say that sending someone to a BSA resource for an answer on the BSA program would have little or no value. Especially if some folks here can write long and charming posts that have ano basis in fact to them. To place greater validity on the information based on the length of the post would be poor decision indeed.

CNY The reason I added the Unit Money Earning application was so to make the following BSA policy available for the quiz. I am adding the unerline so that you see the pertainent portion. 7. Will the fund-raising project avoid soliciting money or gifts? The BSA Rules and Regulations state, Youth members shall not be permitted to serve as solicitors of money for their chartered organizations, for the local council, or in support of other organizations. Adult and youth members shall not be permitted to serve as solicitors of money in support of personal or unit participation in local, national, or international events. The Eagle candidates Service project is a personal event done in support of another organization. The local council SE has NO AUTHORITY to countermand or circumvent ANY part of the Rules and Regulations of the BSA. eolesen is only partly correct. While the benefiting organization can stipulate the retricitions on the fundraising involving the use of THEIR name and images, the benefitting organization has no authority to tell the scout how he can use of not use the name and images of the Boy Scouts of America.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Philmont is all about the experiences you have, not about doing enough to receive another cloth decoration for your uniform. If you feel that some award is required for doing what every good scout leader should be doing, improving their skills, then your motivation as a scouter would seem to be very self centered. The problem I see with this statement is that it confuses two distinct groups and their motivations. The first group is the one that creates the recognition and the second is the group that receives the recognition. The opinion in italics show above suggests that the knot was created and approved either to make another knot or to appease people who want to get knots. I see no evidence that either is true. The Training Committee that created this not is the same committee that created the Scouters Training Award, and The Scoutmaster's Key. Both require that you attend other training courses (some that cost money to go), it even includes attending PTC as an option, it also requires you to train others (just as the Philmont knot does). In addition, all three recognitions are there for two reasons; 1) recognize the scouter accomplishments and personal growth, and 2) As a positive motivation for others to work toward the same growth. So from the standpoint of the developers of the recognition there is no evidence of the self-centeredness or egotism suggested by the poster. The Second group is made of the recipients of the recognition. Because the BSA offers these knots as recognition for the work and self-improvement of the scouter, I think it is fair to accept that that is how those who earn it most often view it. We probably all fit into one of three categories when it comes to recognition. 1) Those who appreciate being recognized, 2) Those who need to be recognized, 3) Those who want to be recognized. It has been my experience that most adults are in the first group, and that a minority of adults falls into either of the last two. That includes adults in or out of scouting. However, just because there are some who need to, or want to be recognized, that does not mean that the recognition is flawed or that no one should be recognized. Some posters might find it interesting to learn just how the BSA decides on these recognitions. BadenP used to be a professional for almost 6 years, I am sure he would happy to explain the process to us. BadenP...

Certainly not everyone goes to Disney World but millions do every year. You could make the cost of Philmont $250 and you would have some people who could not afford the price. Look at how many people on this forum complain about the cost of Wood Badge, heck we have had people complain about the cost of a camporee. Not every Scout gets to go to a jamboree, does that mean we should criticize those who do go? Should they not be allowed to wear a special patch for having gone just because others couldn't go or chose not to go? Those complaints do not mean that Philmont or other such experiences are too expensive. It means that diffrent people have different resources and that will always be the case. But just because it is not in a persons budget this year does not mean it will not be some other time in the future. The question was asked "Has there ever been a thought to make PTC level courses available in places other than PTC?" and it was answered incorrectly. Yes, it has not only been considered but it has been a primary concern of the National Training Committee, and this winter it will happen. Some of the most popular course from the Boy Scout series of conferences will be held at the BSA's Florida Sea Base January of 2009. This is not looked at as the final product but a beginning. http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/18-108_Form.pdf I do love the comment about real world balance. The real world is what you make it. As far as scouting goes you can choose to understand and follow the program or choose not to. If our worlds are all that different Barry it is probably just that we made different choices. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

That's an easy one Pack15Nissan The main reason it was not made retroactive was that trying to document the evidence for the second requirement of Track 2 ("recruit 3 people to attend a Philmont Training Center Course"), would have been impossible when you consider the number of years the center has been in operation and the number of people that have been through the courses over the years. They do however have a tool in place to be able to do that now and through the future. So they they began the program from ground zero. This is not the only recognition that has been done this way and will likely not be the last. If it were about financial support Pack15Nissan they could have just said "donate $xxxx to the Philmont Foundation and get a Philmont Training Center Knot", but it is not a money based recognition. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I see the problem Pack15Nissan, You think the that you should do the work to get the knot, when in fact the knot is a recognition for the work you did to be a better scouter, by developing not only your skills but by encouraging others to develop as well. You are only looking at the cost of attending the conference when you should be focusing on how attending the conferece benefits youth. For instance. In the conference I was involved in we took a survey and found that if the attendees were to take the skills they learned and put them in action it would affect the quality of scouting for over 8000 youth over a three year period. If each of those particpants got three more people to attend, imagine the number of scouts that would benefit? Don't you think that kind of impact warrants recognition? You are looking at the price tag while we are looking at the results as measured in the benefit to youth. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

The notion that PTC is expensive is a misconception held primarily by those who have never been. In their defense, a lot have people who want to go have not gotten the opportunity becasue the the "invitation" process that has been used was largely misused and misunderstood at both the council and volunteer level. That is about to change. But first...consider this. Disney World is a lot more expensive than Philmont and yet millions go to Disney World every year. People pay to wait in long lines at Disney World. PTC by comp[arison is a bargain and except for a few minutes waiting to say grace befopre the meal there are no lines to take up your program time. They have activities for every age group so the entire family can go with you. Back to the reservation changes... Next program year you will not need to wait for a council invitation, (you never really had to but that is another story). Instead you will be able to go on line and see the entire offering of conferences at PTC, select the one you want to attend and apply on-line. Your council will then get notice of your intent to attend and will verify your membership and eligibility and add their approval to the application. This should make PTC far more accessible and allow scouters to register early and easily for the 2009 conferences. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Except for the attendance has the scout completed the other requirements? As far as :do your best" as it relates to the Cub Advancement program it seems to be misunferstood by some. What the BSA wants the leaders to understand is that it is not a contest to do better than others or to meet a quallity or quantity expectation of the Akela. If the den is building birdhouses out of tongue depressors and you have a young man whose "bird house" looks more like an ashtray that's OK, the important thing is that he still did his best. He is still very yopung and not everyone develops at the same rate. it is not uncommon for the children at this age to have huge differences in physical abilities. But keep iin mind that families have other responsibilities than the den meeting, and not all families have the same resources as others. If the scout is not getting to enogh meetings to keep up on his advancement then try to work out other options with the family. The focus should be on positive ways to help kids have fun and grow, its not about the ranks, it's about helping kids. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I don't think you can fully understand 'who' the Council is without understanding 'what' the Council is. The Council is two things. It is a corporation formed within a specific geographic area that is chartered to fulfill the purposes of of the Boy Scouts of America. It is also an association of Chartered Organizations that use the programs of the Boy Scouts of America, PLUS the addition of men and women who are interested in all youth in the council area. To think that a Council is just the professionals we hire to do the day to day administration of the corporation's business is no different than thinking that an Iceberg is only made of what you can see above the water line. Just as people know that the bulk of the iceberg is below the water line, the bulk of the council is is made primarily of volunteers who work in the backgound to support unit scouting, and the growth of scouting in the council area. All the volunteers who serve within the district are actually part of "the Council", as the District is just a service area of the council. Think of it like this ...Council's establish policies and programs, Districts carry out the policies and programs within a specific service area. So the Council is composed of a few professionals PLUS, ALL the chartering organizations, and ALL the volunteers who serve the purposes of the BSA as either chartered partners with the BSA or serving to support the units chartered partners, and those involved in the operation of the corporation of the Council, and those involved in furthering the growth of scouting within a community on behalf of the council body. But one needs to know to look beyond the tip of the iceberg. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

There is no formal appeals process in Cub Scouting, so any disagreement with advancement would probably follow the path of any concern, it would start at the unit level with the Cumaster then the Commmittee, Then to the district committee then to the council committee then to the scout executive. The specific path for each council could vary since it is not controlled by a national ploicy or procedure it would allow each Scout Sexecutive to determine the process in that council. This is another reason why proper leader selection and training is so important.

Arrow of Light District Award of Merit W.D Boyce Unit Organizer Silver Beaver Award Distinguished Commissioner Award Venturing Leadership Award

RangerT You just said my posts were correct, why then do you think I should have to "admit to being wrong" about them to a couple of posters who give no evidence to support there erroneous views? Darn right I am hardnosed about supporting the program in opposition to a few posters who have a lot of negative views on scouting and absolutely no knowledge to support their comments. It's a shame there are not more posters willing to say positive things about the kids, the parents, and the program of the BSA. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

"For a year I've been pushing and prodding the patrols to plan an outing." I think that's probably where you are going wrong. You are still trying to make the scouts do what you want them to. Pushing and prodding is not how you will lead them to independent activitities. They are not used to adults letting them make decisions in fact they have come to expect that they are not trusted by adults, and can only do what adults tell them. So you first need to show them that you trust them, rather than push and prod them into something, even if it is something they will like. Start with 1 patrol leader, your best one. Sit down with him and ask him about the kinds of things he and his friends in the patrol like to do, What sports do they like? What hobbies do they have, what games do they play. Listen for clues for activities. Maybe they like to roller blade, or skate board, or bicycle. Maybe they like to fish, or go to a car show, or a ball game. Then ask if he ever considered doing those things as a patrol? Tell him if he would like to bike to local park for a day of fishing that you think that would be a great thing for him to do with the patrol. No adults, just him and his patrol out for the day doing what they want to do. let him know if he wants to borrow any equipment let the QM know and they are welcome to take it. Once he selects an activity, tell him you just need two things. He needs to give you a simple plan of who is going, where they are going how, they are getting there and back, and what their activity is. The second thing is they need to have their parents sign permission slip saying that they understand that there will be no adults present. Then I would call the parents. Explain what you are trying to get started and ask that they help make this happen by supportiung the scouts decision to go do something on their own. Once the scouts have brought you the plan, tell them that they are getting to do this because you trust in their ability to know right from wrong and to set a good example in the community while they are on their own. Let them know that you are happy to have them do these kinds of things as a patrol anytime they want, all you need is a plan. Offer them your cell phone number and let them know that if they can always contact you should they need you. Once you have the best patrol on their way, go sit down with another PL and repeat the process. When the first patrol gets back have them give a report at the troop meeting to the other scouts about how they went out on their own adventure. This is a good step you are taking, but you need to remember that this is as new to the troop as it is to you. You will all need some time to get use to it.

My apologies jblake but we will mop up your floor another time. Right now we are talking about a new program in the BSA called ScoutParents. Simple questions jblake..."Do you enjoy the activity of scouting with the youth you serve? Do you encourage them to attend, participate, and achieve?" If not then why be an adult in scouting? If the answer is yes, then why should you be allowed that enjoyment but not the parent of the scout?