Bob White

Long Haul, Your original question "Finally I get to my real question. How do you feel about "dummy fronts" By this I mean an organization created to hold troop money and gear aside from the Chartering Organization." I agree with you it is a dummy front. It is not a legitimate organization or a legitimate scouting procedure. How do I feel? I feel it is a way that someone is using to hide money and equipment that should be in the ownership of the troop and charter organization. If you need to bring in lawyers to determine if its proper than you doing something wrong. Bob

Sctmom, Your description of the new scouts working on the same program as the other scouts did not sound as though they were using the new scout patrol method, just that they were in a patrol of new scouts. Not everyone believes that First Class First Year is "being rushed through at the speed of light". It is simply a matter of planning activities that meet advancement as the scout participates. It's doing scout activities when scouting. You asked when else they can be done, Scouts can be self taught. My son reads books all the time, sometimes he even reads his scout handbook. Most our scouts complete the fitness requirements in gym class. They sit in their yard and watch for sight or signs of wildlife and bring in a list of what they saw, heard or smelled. Many of the first aid requirements are covered in health class. Alot of the time it's simply a matter of catching them doing the right thing on a camp out. We've had several scouts that belong to the YMCA or a health club, they often get their swimming done there. The Service projects can be done as a family event or through church or other acivities. You really don't have to rush them to first class, you just need to plan a program that gives them the opportunity to get there. By the way it up until fairly recently you had to get your rank requirements done in order of the rank. They changed to the current format due to overwhelming requests from unit leaders, so that for instance if a troop had a monthly theme of first aid, the scouts could get all their requirements in for all three ranks in the course of the month. I guess I don't understand the reluctance to have a program that accomplishes so much training and recognition for the scouts. When you think of how much information they are capable of absorbing in nine months time at school, First Class First Year is a breeze by comparison. In school, as in scouts, they don't have to be experts to advance to the next level. They need to understand the skill, be able to do the best thay can at this point in their development, and then practice and incorporate the skill into things they do the rest of their lives. You don't have to use First Class First Year, but why would you not use a method that accomplishes so much. In most cases the reason is the Scoutmaster doesn't feel the scout shows enough proficiency in a requirement. Fortunately The scouting program does not base the Advancement Program on individual scoutmasters likes or dislikes. The only measure for advancement is did the scout "do his best". Bob White

Sctmom, your first scenario could happen, but that speaks more to poor planning than to the goal of First Class First Year. Also your description suggests a mixed troop rather than the New Patrol method. Using the New Patrol that situation is unlikely to happen. Another problem is that you seem to only allow for advancement learning and testing to take place during a troop event and that is not the advancement method either. Under the First Class First Year program, boys will complete ranks about every 12 to 16 weeks. Do largely to the use of a separate program that is focused on the needs and characteristics of new scouts. Yes They can work toward all three ranks at the same time but rarely does this end in a cascade of ranks at the end unless the unit's advancement plan caused that to happen. It's all in the planning. This is not a new program. It has been an official part of Scouting for over 10 years, and was used successfully by troops all over the country for many years before that. Secondly, it's the planned program aimed at First Class First Year that produces the boys interest to be actively involved. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

1. Because statistically boys who advance to first class first year are more than 8x more likey to stay in the progam for 3 years or more, and nearly than half the scouts nationwide who do not make First Class first year quit in their second year. 2. Webelos crossing over are use to a steady stream of recognition, if that comes to a crawl or stops they will leave. 3. It makes sure that new scouts are not lost in the troop program as older scouts work on merit badges. 4. Because the skills leading to First Class teach the scout the basics to be capable and comfortable in the outdoors. 5. They need to know the skills in order to practice them on outings for years to come. 6. Because the scouting program is designed to help them do that. Hope this helps, Bob White

Eagle 90, Long Haul said the Advancement Chair, that's another volunteer. This is a huge organization, like any other there will be good and bad leaders. That goes for volunteers and professional staff. Are there more problems with one group or the other. Well we volunteers outnumber professionals by something like 2,000 to one. You figure the odds. Most pro's put in more hours then most volunteers, they do the least fun work and get the least recognition. Even a pay check doesn't make up for that. Bob

Brad, In the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual under the heading "Recruiting and Training Merit badge Counselors and Publishing Lists" sub-heading "Maintaining a Current List of Merit Badge Counselors" it explains the renewal process. It state that the counselors registration must be approved annually. it suggests a process where the counselor recieves a packet by mail that contains the following elements. 1. Thank them for service 2. Tell them it is time to register. 3. Tell them the merit badges they are currently approved to counsel in. 4. Ask them if they wish to continue. 5. Enclose a response card or form for them to use. On element 5 most councils use the Merit Badge Counselor Application Form since it includes much of the information shared in parts 2,3 and 4. A new adult volunteer application is not needed. Bob White

Ed, I am sure there are many local variations of training. Many I'm sure are very good. I know we have scouters veiwing this forum from different countries and I was just correcting some info on what our training courses were and what the abbreviations stood for. Bob

Grey Fox, I think you are close, but what you describe may be a local variation. National BSA recognizes 5 levels of Boy Scout Junior Leader Training. The first three levels are done on a troop level by the Scoutmaaster or designated adult leaders. They are 1. Introduction to Leadership (an initial breafing to job responsibilities immediatel;y upon taking office) 2. Troop Junior Leader Training (a one day workshop conucted by the Scoutmaster) 3. Ongoing Junior Leader Training The next step is a council level training 4. Junior Leader Training Conference (JLTC) (A weeklong experience using trained junior leaders to train the scouts, as you say the name changes in some areas but they all use the JLTC course) The last level is NJLIC, which is conducted at Philmont Traing Center and stands for 5. National Junior Leader Instructor Camp (this is where the key junior leaders for JLTC are trained) These are the only Junior Leader Training opportunities which are recognized nationally and that have standardized training syllabii. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

K9gold, what you describe is a legitimate Charter Organization. Long Haul is refering to a third party seperate from the CO which is holding money or property. They are totally different entities. All Scout Councils and some Chartering organizations qualify as a 501c Charitable organization. I'm fairly confident, as NJscouter points out, that "LBA" does not qualify as one. As such the funds they raise they owe taxes on. In addition they are not raising money on behalf of the Charter Organization or the BSA. They are raising funds for "their" Troop, but it is not their troop, it is the CO's, and that money belongs in total possesion and control of the troop committee and CO. Bob

"The LBA isn't a laundaring device it is an alternate means of handleing troop assets." Sorry Long Haul but that's doubl-speak. I agree with NJscouter that the "LBA" is on very thin legal ice. The Troop belongs to the Charter Org. and all funds and materials are to be under the stewardship of the charter org and troop committee. Ownership is shared by the the CO and the BSA. All money and assets of the unit were raised using the name and image of the BSA, elements which are wholey owned by the BSA. Because of that, they do have a say in how the money and equipment are used. The BSA will, if at all possible, leave the assets in the possession of the CO, providing it continues to be used for the benefit of youth. Otherwise it will be redirected by the local district or council to benefit youth. I have been involved in this process on several occassions and know this to be true. For a third party to exist for the sole pupose of holding assets for the troop or pack is improper and probably illegal. The management of assets and the selection and approval of adult leaders are two primary responsibilities of the unit committee and they cannot be shared or handed off to another body. Regardless of how many Eagle Scouts or former Scoutmasters are involved, wrong is wrong. Bob White

Gosh long haul that's a lot of questions to tackle. I'd like to take a hot at a few though. 1. How do we protect ourselves? By following the rules of the BSA and the chartering organization. If you violated BSA rules by taking money or equipment and the Co pressed charges, you would be on your own. That behaviour violates BSA regs and the BSA might even assist in your prosecution, but they certainly won't defend you. On the other hand, registered adults who follow the rules and act in good faith, would in the event of a law suit, receive legal defense from the BSA. 2. What if they demand the gear you worked 20 years to accumulate. As you say that's their option. The District Executives however will ask that the money and equipment be used to serve another youth program of the charter organization or be returned to the BSA to give to youth units in the local district to use. The money cannot go into the the charter organizations general fund or the equipment sold, unless the money generated goes to a youth program. 3. The 3rd party organization would be improper and probably illegal. The scout unit is not a legal entity. it is an extension of the Charter Organization which is a legal partner with the BSA. The adult leaders are volunteers of the Charter Org. who agree by signature to follow the rules of the BSA. For an outside organization to raise funds using the Charter Organizations identity and the BSA name and image but not turning over all funds raised to either organization would, I believe, be committing fraud. The only purpose of such an organization would be to hide funds from the CO and the BSA, hardly proper behavior for people who are supposedly building moral character in its members. Bob White

Sorry if I got the law thing wrong Bruce. Lawyering is not my thing. My point was that the boy had more pressing things on his plate than advancement. By the way I like your response better. Bob

I agree with buffalo Bruce. The scouts wont need an example. They have enough imagination to do the task themselves. let them know it needs to be in good taste and let them go. They'll do fine. Bob

Hi Rescue Guy, When I was a Cubmaster the pack had 14 dens. Every pack meeting we had a pack newslwtter and lots of handouts for the Den Leaders and the parents. We found the use of a pack mailbox solved our problems. We had a plastic milk carton that had sections for holding file folders, that we bought at an office supply store. Each den had a folder with the den number on the tab. Inside the folder were all the handouts for the families in that den. The Den Leader or the Denner picked it up when they arrived at the meeting. They had the responsibility of making sure all the den families received the info. The folder had to be returned at the end of the meeting empty. If a family wasn't there it was the Den lleaders responsibility to get the info to them. This also minimized announcements at the pack meeting and made sure it stayed a kids meeting not an adults business meeting. We loved it. Hope this helps, Bob White

I tried to edit a post and got this message, Sorry, that is not a valid membership account. Bob

From the teenagers I've talked with "cool" seems to come from two things, independence and self esteem. I see that as being the biggest selling point for the patrol method. Carried out to it's full measure of "never do anything for a boy that a boy can do for himself" the patrol method offers boys independence within a arena of safety and considtent recognition. It's interesting that a few years back (I don't recall the exact year) the BSA did a national survey of boys who left scouting the first year and of the scoutmasters of their unit. The question they were asked was "why" did they leave scouting. The number one reason the scoutleaders gave was peer pressure, followed by lack of parental support and schedule conflicts with other activities. Program quality was not mentioned. The boys however told a different story. The number one reason given by the boys was "boring meetings" followed by boring campouts, then leaders don't like me. Peer pressure was far down the list. I think 'cool' to a boy is feeling in control and making his own decisions, living a life of adventure, and being recognized as an individual, all are encompassed in the Patrol Method. Just my thoughts, Bob

OGE, The big problem with conversing over the internet is it's a very one dimensional communication. Without the benefit of facial expressions, body language and intonation the task of understanding what a total stranger is trying to say can be difficult. I never questioned your dedication, I was just trying to understand your intent. It seems that the "oversee" might mean different things to different people. I am sure if we had the luxury of knowing every poster personally that such misunderstandings would be less likely. I am not the semantic fanatic you make me out to be, just as I am sure you are not the kind of person that your last post reflects. Bob

Grey Fox, Glad to help, but I need the dates of the trek too please. Thanks Bob

OGE, I agree with some of the things you are saying, but...haven't you listed a number of things that the boys should be doing. Menu planning, food shopping, the annual calendar, sign-up sheets, selecting the outdoor activities, are all Patrol and PLC responsibilities aren't they. I'm all for adults sharing the work load, but only the things that scouts cannot do themselves. Bob

There are no restrictions I am aware of for using the Fleur-de-lis on a t-shirt. There is a lot of great scout logos and clip-art on the Internet that yopu can use also. Consider making your own logo and printing on your inkjet printer onto an iron-on material and making your own shirts. We contacted a t-shirt company once and they put our art work onto t-shirts in a single color for $5 a shirt including the shirt. How did we do it so cheap? We let them use overstock and left over shirts from other jobs. We had a Rainbow effect, but all the logos were identical and we got them for a song. Bob

National has some requirements for High Adventure activities and some High Adventure Camps, but Klondike Derby? Why would a troop tell a scout they can't go to a scout activity that they are eligible to attend. That shows some strange priorities. Bob PS JLT eligibility varies by council. The limitiations you suggest may exist where you live, but they are not a national requirement.

Congrats Eagle9 , What a great position to be in. I am going to assume you created 2 New Scout Patrols. Do you have an Asst. Scoutmaster for each New Scout Patrol to see that have a program to reach First Class First year? (There's two jobs) How about a Troop Trainer to get the othe rnew volunteers up to speed? We just made a new asst. SM, who just finished being a Cubmaster, into a Webelos Resouce Person. Since he is familiar with the other Packs and Cub leaders, he is going to make sure the Webelos 2 know of our trrop, our activities, supervise the Den Chiefs and prep the Webelos Leaders to become troop leaders. How about an Adult Quartermaster Corps to help the scout QM's with major equipment repair and purchases. Take a couple of parents and put them in charge of ceremonies and props for Courts of Honor. They can find the scripts for the scouts to follow. Just a few thoughts to get you started. Bob

Eisley, I hate to spoil your smirk, but what the parents are willing to do among themselves as far as donations is not heavely controled by the BSA. The fundraising rules are to keep you from inappropriatly raising money from the public. Bob

I would sit down over a coffee with the DE assigned to the Council Advancement committee and share the "Advancement Policies and Procedures" manual with him or her. Let them know that the unit volunteers expect the rules to be followed. Do the same with the District Chairman. Just a thought, Bob

I go by the manufacturers recommendation, but most nylon type tents are a stuff. I leave the doors open about 6 inches to let air out and avoid ballooning, and to keep the weather out during set-up. Bob