Bob White

My son's troop is going to camp Maumee near Bloomington In. (website under construction). Then they go to the Northern Tier High Adventure Canoe Base, then our family goes to Philmont Training Center.

The mormons don't have a monopoly among the religions when it comes to not accepting gay scout leaders.

NJScouter, In my son's troop, they do a a special meeting (during a regular troop meeting night)with the new scouts and there parents, where the Troop Guides put on a packing demonstration. They talk about what equipment is needed the first year, where to buy and how to save expenses. They also go over the personal packing list in the handbook and show how to pack as a bag of bags. Then the scouts go play a game while I (as the ASM for the New Scout Patrols) talk to the parents about the purpose of the scout uniform and answer any questions they have (now that they have a few meetings under their belt). Bob

Yes tjhammer there really is a poll! "A Louis Harris poll found that 95% of U.S. parents want the Scouting program and its values for their children" http://www.bsa.scouting.org/excomm/values/newsletter/0106/beacon.html Yes, I've read the other strings but I thought what we were talking about was the "undo" influence of the LDS and Roman Catholic religions in the rule setting of scouting. I am not a member of the LDS church and no one and nothing in scouting has ever asked that you or I follow the teachings of the LDS Church. The values of BSA existed long before the LDS Church adopted this program for their youth outreach. As did the method of representation on the Board. How come none of the national board members are screaming "foul" if they feel their input is overshadowed? Why aren't more scouts leaving than joining if this were an LDS controlled organization? Why aren't there more LDS youth members if the program was pushing LDS beliefs? I'm sorry but the whole thing smells of a red herring. If you want to change something about scouting, let's get rid of that ugly new webelos hat. Or maybe that's the way the LDS Church wants it to look? As far as my VAST posting on other topics. Welcome to America my friend. A free exchange of ideas is what we are all about.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Sctmom, In the Scoutmaster Leaders Specific Training, we teach the the adult leaders there is no need to remind boys to work on advancement. Baden Powell described scouting as a game, "a game with a purpose". We plan ways to teach skills during meetings and outings, and then we create opportunities for the boys to use those skills. We catch them using the skill correctly and then we sign the advancement. We also encourage the scouts to work on things independently and bring us evidence of the requirement completion. Such as a knot board, or a photo of their meeting with the mayor, their SOAR certificate from school (thats a drug education program run by the police department), their gym teacher's signature on the exercise requirements. etc. All adult unit leaders, the Troop Instructors, the Troop Guides, and the Patrol Leaders who are First Class and above, are trained on how to recognize advancement. Any one of them can sign the book. If we feel someone is not doing a responsible job of it we release them of that task. This is the method that has been taught in scouting for decades. Bob White

sctmom, You ask good questions. We look at two things. 1. What did you bring. 2. How did you bring it. We want to see that you used the personal packing list from the scout handbook and brought only the gear it listed and clothing to match the weather. We want to see a bag of bags. Whether you use a backpack, a day pack, a duffel bag, whatever. We want everything in the outer bag separated, organized, and protected by innerbags. Those can be stuuf sacks, zip locks, bread wrappers, lawn bags, etc.. We look for personal gear to be either on your body, in your pocket, or in your pack. The only thing on the tent floor is your pad and your sleeping bag. Hope this helps, Bob (This message has been edited by Bob White)

tjhammer, The reason no discussion takes place on this at Roundtables, or district meetings etc. is that it is an irrelavent topic. The pupose of those bodies is to support and provide program for the units in their area, not to debate national membership regulations. The LDS is not a majority vote at national, and as you pointed out, other organizations have the ability to increase their use of scouting and I hope they do. The fact is according to a recent Harris pole 95% of US familiies polled supported the present values of the BSA. In addition A Newsweek poll found that the public overwhelmingly supports the Supreme Court decision that supported the BSA constitutional right to free association. Does everyone agree with the BSA? No. Throughout our history there have been people who haven't liked our values, our uniform our methods etc. Has this affected our membership? Check the figures, scouting is growing in total numbers. Has it affected our financial stability? Sorry, NO. In almost every community where we have lost United Way funding we have rebounded within two years to beyond the monies we received from United Way. You are welcome to disagree with scoutings values. You are welcome to protest our values. But if you are waiting for those values to change... pull up a comfy chair because you are going to be waiting a long long time. By the way if you think our stand on atheism and homosexuality is prejudiced, they are not, they are legally discriminatory. If you want to see prejudice take a look at your own views of the LDS representatives at the national level. It is easier to remove a splinter from a freinds eye, than a plank from your own. Bob White

Sctmom, On Saturday morning the Troop Guides and the Patrol Leaders did a shakedown of the scouts backpacks. First the scout got to tell what he did right and what he thought he could have done better. Then the Patrol Leader got to say what he thought the scout did correctly and what he thought could be improved. Lastly the Troop Guide tells the scout what a good job he did and then recommends to the Patrol Leader things to look for when they get to the next pack. We follow a very rigid rule of leadership in that a scout is only corrected by their Patrol Leader. Other scouts and adults only say positive things. This keeps a boy from being criticized multiple times for one thing,and insures he gets more compliments than criticisms. The only exception is if a scout is in danger of hurting himself or someone else. The whipping and fusing was started as a demenstration at the last campout in a cabin, and then completed this campout as a project to clean-up some troop gear. (Somehow, whenever we get new scouts, the troop's rope supply keeps getting the whippings cut off and they need to be repaired. Very strange indeed.) Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Sager, I'm assuming you've done a camp promotion night for the troop, and that the scouts have seen pictures of the activities that are waiting for them. My suggestion is take however many boys want to go and GO. even if only one or two are going, GO. Conatct the camp program director and hook up with another troop so that the scouts have other boys their age to hang with and GO. Once you get back, hold a Court of Honor, show slides of camp, present the Merit Badges to the scouts so every sees the advancement that took place. Joke about the mosquitoes, the weather and the food. Let them know that for $125 you had a $1,000,000 experience. Then be ready for the all the scouts who want to go next year. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

These words like "rush", "push", etc. bother me. Advancement is a matter of planning, training and testing, often when the scout doesn't even realize that advancement was happening. On our last outing, with 2 new scout patrols who were oon there first tent camp out, the new scouts completed the following requirements while camping. Tenderfoot, 1,2,3,4a,4b,9,11, Second Class 2b,2c, First Class 4a,4b(2 scouts),4c,4d,4e(2scouts),8a Thats 13-15 of 52 requirements to reach first class (not counting SM Conference and BOR). Not because we rushed them (we didn't), but because they were prepared to do them by the things we learned at the troop meeting, then we stood by to catch them doing things right. These scouts are 6 weeks into the program and they are pumped. Bob(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Ed, My point, with all due respect, is that it is not your decision. It is up to the patrol members to decide who is best equipped to be the Patrol Leader, not you. If the patrol wants a 12-year old First Class Scout so be it. Perhaps they will choose a 13-year old Tenderfoot, or maybe a 16-year old Eagle. The choice is theirs not yours. Nothing you will find in any of the scouting program resources says anything differnet. Your personal feelings about the leadership ability are irrelevant and in my personal opinion you underestimate the ability of a boy to rise to the occassion, and you underestimate your ability to teach a 12-year old the basic skills of leadership. Every scout scout in your troop hangs with a group of friends at school (a patrol) and each of those groups has informally chosen a boy who they follow. They play the games he helps them choose, they gather he he says to, they probably get together on weeklends to do stuff from time to time. That group leader can be 11 or 12 or 13 etc.. If they can do it outside of scouts, why can't they do it in scouts? Bob

if you believe you will lose scouts when they discover the two fumes (perfume and gasoline), then you will. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy. You will begin to treat them like they are leaving , you will plan as if they are leaving, and they will leave because you expect it of them. If you expect them to stay until 18, treat them like you expect them around till they are 18 and give them a program that excites a young adult, then thay will stay until they age-out. This has always been my experience and the experience of leaders I talk with who have older scouts. Bob

I'm confused! Why is it that the LDS's representation is "skewed", when as a national sponsor it has the most units and the second most number of youth served? Who do you thing has the most Representatives in Congress, California or Rhode Island. If other organizations used scouting as completely as as the LDS church they would have more representation. Bob

Hi sctmom, Thank you for taking this to its own thread. You asked some excellent questions, either of which could be a thread on its own. In the first case of the second class scout there are a couple of things worth discussing. How did he get left in limbo for so long, why hasn't anybody realized his lack of one requirement and done something, and what can you do to help. I recommend that the unit use an Advancement wall calendar to track advancement. It makes identifying situations like this easier. For it to work though someone has to make sure that the info is up to date and that once a situation like this by has is spotted that someone is assigned to motivate him to completion. The most likely person for this job is the Advancement chair or someone on the advancement committee (nothing says that advancement is a one person job). Another thing that will help to identify tis sort of thing is regular Boards of Review (BOR). BORs are not just for scouts who are advancing. They are also for scouts who aren't. By having BORs on a monthly basis and visiting with scouts who have not shown any advancement activity in the last 3-6 months will help to catch these near misses much faster. As far as your role, no matter your title you are there for the scouts. If I knew of a situation like you describe I would pair the boy up with a junior leader who could help him complete the requirement. if that option didn't work I would sit down with him myself. Either way I would get the scout support and instruction to help him complete his rank. your second situation is more difficult. Far too many Leaders have the mistaken idea that the eagle rank is the goal of scouting. If it were then we are all miserable failures because only 3.5% of scouts achieve Eagle and that is the highest rate in the history of the rank. So if Eagle is the goal then we fail 96.5% of the time. Eagle is a wonderful achievement and a great personal accomplishment for any scout who wants to set his sights on it and achieve it no matter what his age. But it is just that a personal goal not a program goal. To sway the unit or unit leaders perception is a difficult task. Once that mindset exists it is hard to change. The other problem is the self-fullfilling prophecy that boys leave at 16 or after they get Eagle. Once you you convince your self of that then you start planning a program around it. Before you know it they leave because you planned the program out from under them. Just as an example; My son's first troop's SM believed in that folklore, and sure enough every boy who made Eagle did so around 16 and left, or they didn't get to Eagle, turned 16 and left. My son's second troop is in the same town, has a Scoutmaster who sees the only advancement goal as First Class First Year (no it is not me) and believes that the only way out as a scout is to turn 18. We currently have 5 Eagle scouts ages 14 to 17 extremely active in the troop. We will have a 6th Eagle in 8 weeks and he turns 18 in July. We have 4 life scouts ages 14 and up. Will they be Eagle? Maybe, it's up to them. They Know what they have to do to get there, but our program is not based on getting them there. They are fine young men and good leaders. Any one of them would be an excellent Eagle Scout, but if they left scouting at 18 without it they would still be fine young men and good leaders and good representatives of scouting. I guess I'm trying to say "don't give up you're on the right track". Learn as much as you can about the real scouting program and look for opportunities to counsel the other adults individually. Lastly, so that I can save some bandwidth for other posters, training. Contact your local Scout service Center and ask to borrow the New Leader Essentials, CD and video. You might also ask to do the Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training as a home study (it is allowed) get the video, the NLE CD has the PowerPoint presentations for this on it as well. Also read the Chapters 1,2,16-19 of the Boy Scout Handbook, the Scoutmasters Handbook, and the Committee guide Book. (watch for the Senior Patrol Leader handbook and the Patrol Leaders handbook due out this summer) Hope this helps, Happy Scouting, Bob White

CubsRgr8, You are partialy correct in what you say in that there are a large number of representaatives at the national level representing specific religions. However it is not accurate to say "undue" influence. Representation is based on the number of chartering organizations using the scouting program. In the case of the LDS church, they have have chosen to make the Boy Scouts of America the official youth program of their church. Every LDS church in the country has a scout unit. Nationally the LDS has 11,738 scout units serving 412,240 youth as of Dec. 31, 1998. The LDS have by far the largest number of units, therefore the most representation. However, they do not serve the most youth. That distinction goes to.... no not the Roman Catholic Church.... The United Methodist Church, with 11,738 units at the same point in time. The Catholic Church is however second in number of units and third in number of youth served. So these three organizations have the greatest representation because they are the biggest users of the program. So you see it is not "undue", it is representative of the scouting community. Here is a site where you can get more statistics. Stats are usually 2 to 3 years old because it takes time to accumulate accurate figures due to the size of the program. http://members.tripod.com/troop485/catholic/charter.htm You should know also that national scouting is run by volunteers like you and me. The pros jobs are to implement the decisions made by volunteer committees made up of scouts, scouters and Charter Organization Representatives from every council in the country. The Advancement Committee alone has over 200 volunteers that meet twice a year and review and update aspects of the advancement program. I hope this helps, Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Ditto le Voyageur Bob

Scoutmom, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to ignore your question. You raise an excellent point. Could I ask you to repost it as a new string? It is worthy of its own conversation. Thanks, Bob(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Ed, You wrote "So what you are saying is all 1st Class Scouts are ready to become a PL because of their rank?" Where did I say that? I said "Whether he is ready to be a Patrol Leader is a decision for his fellow patrol members not his scoutmaster." Patrol leaders are elected by majority vote of the patrol's members not by any adult. I challenge you to find anything in the BSA Scout Handbook, Scoutmaster Handbook, Junior Leader Handbook, Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training or Wood Badge that says anything to the contrary. A basic premise of scoutings teaching method is that boys learn by doing. they learn to build a fire by building the fire. they learn to lead by leading. It's designed for on the job training. You may not agree that the scoutmasters job is to train them after they get the job, but that is what the Scoutmaster Handbook says, and that is what the junior leader training continuum outlines. So don't feel like you and I disagree. You and the BSA disagree on what the BSA program is. Eagle90 is correct in saying it's fun that keeps boys in scouting. First Class First Year is the scouting blueprint for that first year of fun, and it has been for a long time. Bob White

Before I go into the procedure I'll promote talking privately to the Scoutmaster first. A scoutmaster trying to "run" the troop is going to have a lot to keep on top of and he or she will not be a happy person. get them away from the activity of an outing or troop meeting and have a chat with them. First about your son, and secondly about maybe they would be happier if they had less responsibilities by sharing troop operations with boy leaders and other adults. If that doesn't bring any results, here is what is supposed to happen. (remember not everyone follows the rules). The parents of the scout are to meet with the troop committee to dicuss the problem. A solution supported by the committee and agreed upon by all parties is arrived at. The parties are then given sufficient time to fulfill their agreement. Only the Charter Organization Representative or the Council Executive can revoke membership. This normally only happens if the scout or adult violate the policies of the Chartering organization or the BSA. Simple horseplay would not normally lead to dismissal, however bullying would. I hope things work out for your son, Bob White

Ed, What I'm saying is that an 11 1/2 or 12 year old who has met the requirements in his handbook is ready to be First Class. Whether he is ready to be a Patrol Leader is a decision for his fellow patrol members not his scoutmaster. His Scoutmasters responsibility is to develop his leadership skills once he is elected, regardless of what age that is. Take a look at the first two paragraphs of page 2 in the Boy Scout Handbook.... Let a First Class Scout tell you about his latest trip: "I've been a scout for almost a year and I've been on plenty of campouts." Nowhere in the BSA program does it say that a scout becomes a leader once the SM thinks he is ready. The program says that the boy is given leadership opportunities and responsibilities and then Scoutmaster trains him how to do the job. If the patrol wants a 12 year old Patrol Leader then that is up to them. Part of the citizenship training ithat scouting provides is learning to select the best person not the most popular. but that's a lesson the boys have to learn on their own. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Ed, Isn't after First Class First Year where the scouts get leadership opportunities, merit badge opportunities, and high adventure activities? Why would they be bored? First Class First year is like Pony League in Little League. It's where you learn the basics of the game so that you can move up and play with the older boys. "Though you can advance at your own pace, most active scouts usually earn First Class within a year of joining a troop." page 14 of the Boy Scout Handbook. Ed, by "being ready" are you refering to maturity? There is no "maturity" requirement in scouting other than living the Oath and Law. Scouting does not ask the scoutmaster to determine if the scout is "ready" to advance beyond checking to see that all the requirements in the handbook are signed. Bob

Mike, We don't disagree. the scout has to do what the requirement asks for. I have a problem with the "master the skill" part. The only thing the scout needs to do is complete the requirement and do the best he can, not the best that someone else can do, or the best that the scoutmaster expects. The scouts have a lifetime to practice, apply and "master" the skill. "More time in the outdoors, more responsibilities, more knowledge of scouting skills- that's what becoming a First Class Scout is all about." The Boy Scout Handbook "First Class completes the basic training you need to take part in most of Scouting's activities an adventures." the Boy Scout Handbook So the trail to First Class is about understanding and experiencing basic skills. It is not about being an expert outdoorsman. The more opportunities we give the scouts to use these skills the better they will become, but let's not withold ranks until we feel they are "good enough". We need to advance them as they complete the requirements the handbook asks them to do. Hope this clarifies things, Bob

k9scout, "if your program works" what exactly does that mean? I ask because that seems to carry a different meaning to different people. Also I don't see First Class First year as overemphasizing advancement. On the contrary I see it as taking a low key on advancement. It says you don't have to master a skill to pass, you just need to understand the methods and skills, and do your best at trying it. Scouts have years to master the skill through application. Even the Merit Badge program is not about mastering skills. MBs are to expose the scouts to career opportunities and hobbies. It's units that require scouts to be "masters" before they pass, who use troop meetings as merit badge classes and measure success by the number of their Eagle Scouts,that are overemphasizing advancement. The Advancement program is not about mastering skills, it's one tool we use to achieve the three Aims of Scouting. Advancment is not a goal it is a method to for scouts to discover character, citizenship, and fitness. Bob White

There is a bead recognition program for scouts working on First Class that gives them a bead for each rank requirement they complete. each rank has a different color bead and they hang from a leather patch on the uniform belt. The Boy Scout Handbook has the requirements for an award that recognizes patrols that make an effort to be the best possible patrol. It is called "National Honor Patrol Award" and is found on page 23. Bob(This message has been edited by Bob White)

LongHaul, Over the years, in my role in Commissioning, I have had to to talk to a number of COs (mostly Schools and PTOs) about unit finances and equipment after a charter ended. After explaining that the equipment was bought largely through the use of scouting's identity and for the use of scouts, every one of the former CO's gave the equipment to another scout unit to use and put the money in a fund to benefit youth. The few times I had to contact former or current leaders who improperly handled money or left with equipment it was an ugly mess, on a few occasions ended up being turned over to the legal system. Seldom is the problem the CO. It is usually with fellow volunteers who do not know the importance of playing nice together. Just my experience. Bob (This message has been edited by Bob White)