Bob White

TJ We finally agree on something. The importance of a quality program. The problem is you want the professionals involved in it, and it's YOUR job, not theirs. Any us at the unit level who don't think we have a good program, need only to look in the mirror to find who is responsible, not at the professional staff.

Thanks NJ, A very good point. I had no problem with the people who wanted to have a policy changed taking the BSA to court to have the legal system decide. That is their civil right and I endorse participating citizenship. However when the legal option was carried to the end and all parties had their day in court, when decision did not meet with their liking, the proponents of change switched to trying to cripple the BSA rather than accept the judgement of the Supreme Court. That to me showed their true intentions. When the issue was women as scoutmasters,I always supported qualified adults as leaders in the BSA and made my opinion known to national. When the courts found in favor of the BSA and they still chose to change their regulations, I was very impressed. It showed to me the quality of our leadership at the national level. Whichever way this controversy ends up going I will continue to follow the regulations as I said I would when I joined, or find another program to support. However I will not bad mouth a program of which I am voluntarily a member. Bob White

These are all excellent! Keep 'em comin!

TJ I have not seen myself or other posters use numbers as a reason for the policy, only as proof that the devestating loss, predicted by some after the BSA vs Dale decision, has never actually occurred. The BSA has always maintained that this is a private organization that has a constitutional right to set its own values and determine its own membership according to it congressional charter. It has never been a numbers game. When its membership plummeted during the Vietnam War. It never changed its position on patriotism or the importance of the uniform. It stood by its values and waited patiently for the nation to return to scouting. Which it did. If you look at the strings that discuss program rather than politics you will read several stories of scouts leaving the program due to poor leadership and poor programs not because of the BSA stance on gays. If you want to see why some scout units are always growing, while others fight to maintain membership, look inside the units NOT at national membership regulations. As a side note, why hasn't anyone talked about Learning for Life, a branch of the BSA that does not require the members to subscribe to the moral values of traditional scout programs? Why is that not an acceptable option for gay and non-gay members who want to embrace the values of scouting that they agree with? Bob White

Longhaul, You and I agree 99%. The only place we really have a differing point of view is in who owns the program. the Charter Organizations own more than just the equipment, they own the program. The Nation Executive body is made of reresentatives of the COs my son's troop's COR is a national board representative. We live in a relative medium sized community and he is neither a member of the LDS or RC churches. He does not see an LDS conspiracy at the national level. National, Council, District and unit leaders, are all volunteer servants to the needs of the Chartering Organizations who use the scouting program, and to the boys and girls who are served by the COs. There are scouters and even scouts who sit on all the sub-committees that develop the scouting program. But the final vote as to what constitutes the rules and policies of the program all pass before the executive board for approval. That board is made of representativees of the organizations that use the scouting program. this has been the way BSA has operated since 1916. Although this is probably the most political and heated topic that the BSA has had to deal with. They are not going to alter the method of administration that has worked so well for decades, just to appease those who disagree with the decision. Other than that I feel you make many valid points. Bob

tj, and sctmom, thanks for the location of the stats, I'll take a look. however neither of you have offered a shred of evidence linking the membership fluctuation to the gay/atheism issue. to just say it is because it reaches the conclusion you want is not proof that that was the cause. As has been pointed ou there are other membership factors that could just as easily come into play. There is also the large canadian drop that was mentioned that took place after gay members were welcomed. Using your own logic TJ... what else could possibly have caused that other than the change in membership rules? Bob

Sorry, make that Merriam-Webster. I didn't catch it in time to edit. Bob

TJ You are incredible. There is (maybe) a very small reduction in membership, I notice you didn't give an information source, and you determine that there was only a single cause. Then you say it must be that cause unless someone else can prove it was something else. Wait a minute! You never proved your guess! That is really a weak premise. My own district had its lowest membership gain in many years. It was caused by the loss of 8 units due to poor program, untrained leadership, and poor adult leader recruitment at the unit level. We also had an unussually large number of scouts age-out of the program. WHAT? No cries of injustice toward gays or atheists? Sorry to destroy your conspiracy theories, but no not a one. They were all related to mundane things like training. I don't suppose any of these elements occured to you since they are not "controlled" by the LDS church. Stay focused on serving the unit TJ you really don't understand the administrative side yet. Bob White

Tom, i'd be glad to look for a way to do that and if you know a web site that might want to do that I'd be willing to try. I don't have a personal site at this time and I don't have a resource I know of yet to produce it in PDF format. At least not in time to help you. Where abouts in NY are you. I used to live Upstate and still have several scout contacts there that I could get the script to. Bob

NJscouter I agree with some of what you say. There are two things I want to clarify. One point I will make you have probably read in another thread. 1. You said the BSA is a non-discrimination organization. That is not correct. The BSA has always descriminated. Keep in mind that most people now-days only think of the illegal discrimination definition. There is also legal discrimination. )From Miriam Webster) 1 a : to mark or perceive the distinguishing or peculiar features of b : DISTINGUISH, DIFFERENTIATE 2 : to distinguish by discerning or exposing differences; especially : to distinguish from another like object intransitive senses 1 a : to make a distinction b : to use good judgment The BSA distinguishes (discriminates) between behaviors and beliefs that the majority of our Charter Organizations and national representatives feel are not in keeping with the BSA mission. Secondly, you say "it's my house as much as anyone else's". Actually not. As unit volunteers we serve the community and the chartered organization as program volunteers, but make no mistake the chartered organizations own the program. It may not feel that way in your unit but in other charter organizations it is well understood. They own the program, we choose to help guide THEIR scout unit. If you were the choir director of the youth choir that does not put you in charge of the church. If the governing body says there is a song you cannot sing because they feel it is not in keeping with there beliefs, you have some choices: don't sing the song and stay, don't sing the song and ask that the decision be changed, sing the song and be fired. If you try to reduce donations or try to shut down the church, they are going to throw you out, and they won't really care about your appeal to sing the song. See where this is going? I do greatly respect your willingness to express your opinions in a orderly and direct manner to the BSA national committees and to not let your personal opinions interfere with delivering the BSA program as it stands today. Who knows maybe the values will change maybe they won't. But the tactics being used currently will not get the results that some people think they will. Bob White

Hi Sager, First off you are not "lowly" The boys and gilrs we serve are at the top of the service peak the leaders who guide them are next. Every thing else in scouting is provided to support you and them. Every council has national representatives who serve on committees that that form tha scouting program. Talk to them about your concerns. Ask you Council executive for names and contact information of executive board members. Write them and tell them how you feel. Remember that the decision to restrict membership was not made to punish boys but to maintain values of the program that were held by the vast majority of the families and organizations that use scouting. The BSA understands that not everyone agrees and they look at this situation often. As a religious leader and Eagle Scout, said tio a group of us at a national training center on this issue, his church is in total disagreement with the BSA on this issue. However they still charter and will continue to charter scouting units. The reason he gave was that this is such a small part of who we are and what we do that to deny the use of the program to the community would be the greayer evil. A big problem with the BSA on this issue is the politicizing of it. For most involed it is not about serving youth it is about making a political inroad, and the BSA does not intend to sacrifice itself as someone elses political pawn. Here is an excerpt from a BSA position statement that might help explain their stance: More than 90 years ago, the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) was founded on the premise of teaching boys moral and ethical values through an outdoor program that challenges them and teaches them respect for nature, one another, and themselves. Scouting has always represented the best in community, leadership, and service. The Boy Scouts of America has selected its leaders using the highest standards because strong leaders and positive role models are so important to the healthy development of youth. Today, the organization still stands firm that their leaders exemplify the values outlined in the Scout Oath and Law. On June 28, 2000, the United States Supreme Court reaffirmed the Boy Scouts of America's standing as a private organization with the right to set its own membership and leadership standards. The BSA respects the rights of people and groups who hold values that differ from those encompassed in the Scout Oath and Law, and the BSA makes no effort to deny the rights of those whose views differ to hold their attitudes or opinions. Scouts come from all walks of life and are exposed to diversity in Scouting that they may not otherwise experience. The Boy Scouts of America aims to allow youth to live and learn as children and enjoy Scouting without immersing them in the politics of the day. There have been very few leaders and even fewer scouts who havew ever joined scouting and then said "I am an avowed ____________(fill in the blank with the membership restriction of your choice)" Are there Gays in scouting now? probably. Has scouting launched a witch hunt to expel them? NO, and they are not about to. They ask that if your a scout be a scout, Not a gay scout, or a athiest scout, or bullying scout, any of which couls get you removed from the program because they violate our values, just be a scout.

Tj Nowhere in that quote does it say scouting would reconsider their principles based on numbers. he says only that we will revisit the topic. The various national committees involved in this topic revisit the subject continually, but they haven't changed their principles. By the way Green Bar Bill was one of the professionals who seem to have such little need for. I get the feeling you are a dedicated unit volunteer. But you really understand very little about how scouting is operated beyond the door of your meeting place. That is not a bad thing, until you start to criticize processes you know so little about. It is not your opinion I take personally. It is the energy wasted and the damage you do with the inaccuracies that you spread that really ties my spleen in a knot.

Longhaul, You wrote "Bob White, Reading your posts in this thread I have to ask a few questions. You said that the National Relations Committee is composed of 20 members." Bob: You got the wrong guy. I reread all my posts on this thread and I never said that. As for all your other questions, they pretty much come down to this. This is not my organization it is owned and operated by the the Chartering organizations. I chose to volunteer my time as a leader to help the chartered organizations in my community deliver a meaningful youth program to the young people in my area. Since joining "my area" was increased in size. First I volunteered to brin the program to a unit as a leader, then to a community as a district Volunteer, thatn to bring the program to a several communities by helping as a council volunteer and now from time to time I am asked to help my community of all american sscouts through projects I have been asked to work on as a national level volunteer. Throuought it all I have been helping a program that is owned and managed by the chartering organizations, I am proud to serve them and the BSA. But it is not my organization it belong to the charter institutions. Think of it as a baseball team. If i'm a coach on the Yankees, then I can say that I am a Yankee. But does that mean I own the yankees, or that I control the yankees? No, I took the job and if I don't like it I can leave and if the upper management decides for whatever reason they don't want me they can make me leave. I am a scouter, do I own the scouts? No. Do I have final say in operations, No , but I have a voice and I have always felt my opinion was respected. This representation system is not new. It was set down in 1916 by congressional charter. Why is the representation by Charter Organizations and not units served. Mainly three reasons. First, they own the program. Secondly, that's the way our congressional charter was set up. Thirdly, The number of Charter Organizations does not fluctuate as much the youth enrollment does, so it is a more measureable, stable, method of administration. You wrote "Money and the witholding of it gets attention." No! Withholding money only hurts our scouts, to make them the pawns in this political debate is cowardly and discusting. The Chartering organizations own this program. We as unit leaders are servants of the community. Some scouters make not like to hear that. They would rather be the self-important center of their scouting universe. Our job is to deliver the program that 92 years of volunteers and professionals have designed for us. Respectfully Bob White

Tj, Let's look at some of the things you wrote last. TJ "Paraphrase: The ORGANIZATION and the MOVEMENT are one in the same" Bob; Paraphrase nothing, fantasy is more like it, nothing along that line was said. I said that the people beyond the unit level that hire and set the goals of the professional staff are volunteers on the District, Council and National committees. That the "organization" you refer to is made of volunteers not some manipulative professional staff. TJ "The BSA organization, with it's headquarters, it's 6,000 professionals, its 327 councils and field service staff could all disappear tomorrow, and Scouting would live on in your troop" Bob: Really, who is going operate the camps, publish the handbooks, do the studies to keep current with the socialogical changes in youth that determine advancement changes, Where will the youth recognitions come from, who will train the thousands of leaders who come after us. who will keep our records, and all the other services done by volunteers and professionals you and a couple buddies? 6,000 professionals? We have nearly that many volunteers just in our council and we are a small council. TJ "The fact of the matter is the BSA is the only member of the World Organization of Scout Movements that has a professional Scouting infrastructure like we do (that's one out of 147 countries)." Bob: We are also the largest scouting program in the world, we finance many of the scouting programs in other countries, we are have the most camps and facilities. We have the best trained leaders, We have Chartered organizations where scout units last for decades, no one else runs a program on the scale and scope as the BSA. And by the way not only are we different from every else, but nearly everyone else is different from everyone else. Australian scouting is different from Norway Scouting is differet form Japan scouting is different from Italian scouting. So what's your point? TJ: And at the national executive board level, I would be so bold as to suggest that at least 75% (if not much higher) of the members have not seen the inside of a tent or worked with an SPL in decades" Bob: So when was the last time you did their job that you expect them to be doing yours? TJ "Bob, the whole point of this tread was to discuss whether Scouting -- thats the organization of Scouting that currently has this ban on letting avowed gay kids and adults be members" Bob: Really, I looked at your opening post and it says nothing about any of that. You talk exclusively about the pro staff, their goals and money. TJ: "Chief Executive was quoted as eseentially saying the BSA would have to reconsider its principles if the membership numbers were really impacted. It's the same "organization" that's affirming that policy under the threat of one single Church that has said it would abandon Scouting." Bob: "show me proof that that was said, or said in the context you present it. TJ you just don't understand that this organization is run by volunteers and the Pros work for us not vice-a-versa. Your poking at shadows that exist only in a few peoples imagination.

TJ, You completely leapfrog over the 3 middle layers made up of tens of thousands of volunteers who make up District, Council, and National, support committees. We are the ones who work with the professional staff to set the 3M goals and we hire those professionals to help achieve those goals. The "organization" is US not THEM. The relationship is symbiotic. Scout units could not exist without the scouting "organization" and without units there would be no reason for the "organization" to exist. As I said before, your comments on the operation of scouting beyond the unit level show a very shallow understanding of the structure and function of the "organization". Bob White

Tjhammer, I' apologize I don't know your scouting background back it I can say it isn't real strong when it comes to proper district operations or professional scouting. To start with it's 3 M's, money, manower, and membership, and even that terminology is outdated. Do they do those things? yes, somebody better? i know our District Executives do. Thank goodness to because most of us don't have the time or training to do that. You make it sound like their goals are secret? Maybe in your District, but I have been a district volunteer since 1980 and I know each year what the goals are. Are they always an increase over the year before? Well Duh! Aren't yours? Do you plan for your income to DECREASE? Do you hope to spend LESS money on family activities? Do you hope to have FEWER scouts in your unit? As a person how supports the progream do want LESS organizations chartering scout units? Of course they increase each year. If you aren't moving forward then your sliding backward. By the way if the majority of your council's budget goes to supporting the professional staff, rather than unit service, blame the volunteers on the finance committee. Are there professionals that don't earn their pay? Sure. But read some of the other strings, there are leaders who aren't worth the money they get. We need professional scouting to keep this organization growing. You seem to see conspiracy around every scouting corner. It's just not there, I looked. I ask you to sight one other youth organization as strong and active as the BSA. Are we perfect? No. Are we good at what we do? WE ARE THE BEST. Bob White

Sctmom, HUH? What? Was that last post of yours in reference to what you and I were discussing? If so I'm lost! Bob

sctmom, The national council of the BSA made of volunteer representastives of the organizations that use scouting (following the procedures approved and accepted by the US Congress) have said that your personal valuesand behaviors DO determine whether or not your a good role model, and that specific behaviors are not condusive to meeting the goals of the BSA program. Those volunteers have the authority and responsibility to set the rules. We have the responsibility to keep them. No one wants you to be a saint. Saints are dead! We need live leaders who can follow the scouting program, all of it, not just the parts each individual agrees with. Bob White

sctmom, The Scout Law says "Obedient. a Scout follows the rules of his family, school and troop. He obeys the laws of his community and country. If he thinks those rules or laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobeying them". The rules of scouting say that if you want to implement a change you go through the proper avenues. You take your views to the national representative of the executive board. You don't rally to have funds cut or have sponsors leave or put on the BSA's uniform and denouce them at the same time. That is destructive to the youth we serve. As far as yor second question. I have been a scout for a long time and from the time I got my bobcat it was apparent to me that scout leaders were meant to be role models. If there was a leader in my pack who couldn't, or didn't, reflect the scouting values they were gone. As a Bear we had a den leader with a foul mouth...GONE. An Asst CM. had a drinking problem...GONE. As a Boy Scout an Asst SM in our troop had an affair with a married woman....GONE. As a Dist Commissioner we had a SM who had a holiday party at his home, and he was the only adult...GONE. We once had a DE who dallied with a married volunteer (what sex was either one? doesn't matter) both of them....GONE. Scouting's rules have changed over the years. If you don't like the rules work to change them, but until they change...follow the rules! Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

It's not that the oudoor program is watered down it. You still camp outdoors at least one weekend. What has changed is that the emphasis is all on the leadership training. Rather than just have highly trained Boy Scout leaders, it's been realized that we all benefit from highly trained Scouting volunteers. That includes troop leaders, pack leaders, den leaders, district committee volunteers, commissioner staffs, unit committee members etc.. The Outdoor skills have been largely removed because they are not relevant to all leaders. Instead the Tenderfoot to First Class skills that used to be in Wood Badge are now in Introduction to Outdoor Skills, a required course for all Scoutmasters and Assistant Scoutmasters, prior to attending Wood Badge. These skills are not relevant to other volunteers and so they are not required to take them and they are not exposed to them in Wood Badge. Why make them learn something they do not use in the job? If their job Changes and they become a SM or ASM then they will get the outdoor skills as they train for that job. Advanced outdoor skills are now in a course called Powder Horn.

The exclusions from scouting membership, are there is more than just the one, are not based on any single religion or religions. They are based on the goals of the programs and how the BSA determines they can best be met to service youth. >The method of leadership was established and approved by congressional charter. >Congress has already overwhelmingly and bi-partisanlly voted not to alter the charter. >The Supreme Court has determined that the membership practices are legal and constitutional. >The families we serve have shown their agreement through growing membership > The communitiies we serve show their support through rising number of charter organizations. >Finances continue to grow dispite with diminishing support of United Way and the withdrawal of a few large corporate donors. It comes to to this, decisions of the National Executive Board determine the rules of scouting. Unless we are a member of that board, made up of representatives from Charter Organizations across the country, our job is deliver the program not to determine it. Anyone outside the program is welcome to disagree. But, if you don't like the rules, then don't play the game. I fully support your right to stand outside the scouting arena and work to change what you feel needs to change. But, don't be a guest in someone's home and complain that you don't like the way they run their house. That's not polite and it's not effective. Your not a prisoner, if you feel you'd be more comfortable in someone else's home, or in your own, then you owe it to yourself to go there. I'll add one more thing before I relinquish my soapbox. This is just to prove that the people who are trying to change scoutings rules are taking the wrong road. Go to the BSA website and find the "events" link. It takes you to the world and national jamboree. It tells of the great things being done for, and done by, Boy Scouts. Now go the the home site for Scouting for All, an organization they say is made up almost half by Eagle Scouts who want to improve the scouting program. Follow the events link to their annual National Rallies. The goal of which is to pursuade charter organizations and corporate sponsors to quit their support of the BSA and for scouts and scouters to return their awards to natioal. Oh, yes that shows great concern for the betterment of scouting and the service of youth, try to dry up their finances and have scouts booted from their charter homes. Does this sound like they want in or that they want the program dismantled? Without money, camps,and charter organizations, what program did they plan to "join". Pardon me while I get of this soapbox. I really don't want anyone to leave. I want us to stop spending so much time fighting within and just deliver the program. Scouting is for everyone but not everyone is for scouting.

I like my SM minutes to be way way under a minute. Turn the lights low in the room let everyone get quiet. Enjoy the moment of calm. Give them a line or two thats easy ro remember and wish them good night. A few of my favorites. Nothing great was ever accomplished without enthusiasm. "Ralph Waldo Emmerson" "It's more important to have character than to be a character" "We are each personally responsible for the quality of our community" "my parents" "The only time it's OK to smoke...is when you're on fire" Anyone else have some short ones to share? Bob

Sctmom, read past the part where I say we don'y need to remind them to where I say "We plan ways to teach skills during meetings and outings, and then we create opportunities for the boys to use those skills. We catch them using the skill correctly and then we sign the advancement. The people who need to "remeber advancemant" is us. As leaders we are responsible for making sure the program is a "scouting program". That means that as the scouts participate they advance. We create the opportunities to 1.learn the skill, 2. practice the skill 3. betested on the skill. But rather than a sit down classroom, we use the clasrromm of the outdoors to give the scouts a need to learn and demonstrate. Then we catch them in the act of scouting and sign them off. The most important thing the scout has to remember about advancement is to participate. Bob White

In case you haven't heard, there are two new scout handbooks that will be arriving at your Council Service Center soon. A Patrol Leader's Handbook and a Senior Patrol Leader's Handbook can now be ordered. I am not sure how soon they will arrive but they now appear on the supply order form for your scout shop. I'm sure they will supply the basis for several new threads once we all get a look at them. Please be open to any new methods or ideas. Remember there is only ONE American Scouting Movement, and that's today's. Side note;(and I apologize for name dropping) I have had the opportunity on a couple of occassions to lunch with 'Green Bar' Bill Hillcourt. At one of the lunches a scout leader started to say something about the scouting organization. Bill cut him off and said "movement, not organization!". the leader looked baffled. "We are a movement, always growing, always learning more about young people, always moving forward". he finished with "If you are looking for organization you joined the wrong club"! Everyone who had been around for a few years knew exactly what he meant and had a great laugh with him. Bob White

Hi NJcubscouter, I fully accept the fact that there are scouters who disagree with the BSA stance on on Gays in scouting and I will address that in a minute. First I want to say that I have no problem problem with people disagreeing with the policies of the BSA. I have a big problem with the conspiracy fantasies that some support. Now as far as gays as members. if you reread my few posts on this subject you will see that I have never given my personal view on this topic. Because what I think on membersip rules is not relevent to my responsibilities in the program. All I have ever said was I know what the BSA policy is and that since I volunteered to play the scouting game, and since I have full knowledge of the rules and agreed to abide by them that as long as I am a member I will follow the rules. If I ever felt I needed to comprise myself to do an activity I would quit. If I was on a baseball team and thought they should allow 4 strikes instead of three, I would never be so insistant that the game rules be changed to match my preference. I chose the game, I should abide by the rules or pick a different game. I don't think that scouting will ever change their stand. Does that change the fact that this is a tremendously valuable and effective youth program? I think not. By the way, thanks for the kind words. I am much more comfortable talking about the fun stuff and enjoy the strings that help me share the methods of scouting with others the best. The political stuff is where I come to vent my spleen from time to time. Bob (This message has been edited by Bob White)