Bob White

Sctmom You asked "Bob, do you REALLY want everyone who disagrees with the policy to leave? As many of us have said, we don't agree, we will not be silent yet we will think SO much of BSA as a whole, we will not leave." No, I certainly don't want you to leave, unless you can't in good conscience keep your word to follow the the policies and program as you promised to do as a leader. That includes keeping your opinion as a scouter to yourself on this topic. If you want to protest it you have that right as a private citizen, but not as a member of a private organization, unless you accept the authority of the organization to expel you if it chooses. I think you need to follow your conscience and protest from outside the Scouting program if indeed you feel the need to protest. It is not your right to be a member and openly challenge this policy. the BSA has a right and I believe a responsibility to do what is in the best interest of the the values they have chosen to live by. Bob

My son's troop has a van. I wish they didn't. They demand to much of the budget to maintain. It only carries half the boys in the unit, and it makes it to easy for parents not to be involved. If I had my choice we wouldn't have a van. Bob

evmori, I have contacted National office of Boy Scout Advancement and will let you know what I get back from them. But if my personal oberservations are worth equal weight to your personl observations, i see something completely different. In my role in scouting as District commissioner and as a council training team member, I see a definite tie between FCFY and retantion. I come in contact with over 50 troop programs on an annual basis. I can say that every troop I see with healthy or growing membership, especially unit of 30 of more scouts use FCFY and has trained leaders, and every troop that that has failed or is in trouble or has week membership doesn't use it, some even had trained leaders. The only reason I've heard for not using it is the a leader saying "I don't think their ready". The leader's feeling their ready is not a requirement or a method of scouting. And if they are not ready, it sort of begs the question, "who was responsible for getting them ready"? When the info comes in I will start it as a new string on the Advancement board. Bob

They are different sctmom, we are all different. the world is made of different people who form into organized societies. In those societies there are other groups that form. Not every group agrees or is required to agree with the other groups. Just because you want to belong to group does not give you the right to join. Our constitution says so. You can choose who you associate with or choose who not to associate with. There is NO right to "forced" association in a private organization. Employment is a total separate deal. There is no Constitution protection for businesses who discriminate in certain areas. Remember there is legal discrimination and illegal discrimination. A business cannot say you are short and so you can't work here, if your height has nothing to do with the job requirements. But if you want to be on a professional basketball team and your 3-ft tall, They can make the choice (discriminate) that your height does not meet with what they value in a player and refuse to hire you. Even if you disagree with them, they still don't have to hire you. Can they refuse you for your religion, or your skin color, or you lifestyle (see Dennis Rodman) no, thats illegal. The Boy Scouts of America is a private service organization and just because someone doesn't recognize our right to free association doesn't diminish that right. There is no law or constitutional right that says you get to join a private organization because you want to. You may want there to be, or wish there was, but the fact is there isn't. You would think that a grop or individuals, who wanted to belong to an organization that for almost a century has based much of it's program on citizenship and government, would appreciate the content of the Bill Of Rights. I would never claim membership to an organization that had rules or values that I could not accept. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Tim Sorry about all the bold print that was an accident, I forgot to include the off switch. I understand what you are saying but, a Court of Honor is not an OA activity and so it is not an appropriate time to wear the OA sash. it says so in the OA handbook. If you are doing the "call out" (tap outs have not been permitted for many years) then you should remove the merit badge sash and set it aside while you wear the OA sash. I would hate to see OA members setting a bad example for the younger scouts by wearing an improper uniform. The Boy Scout Insignaia guide says the merit badge sash is NEVER worn on the belt. Bob(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Sctmom, Let's say you wanted to be a member of a private organization because you thought they were a wonderful group and you wanted to be a part of it. But you go to join and find you do not meet the requirements. You say "But I'm a wonderful person and your a wonderful organization why can't I join?" So you take them to court because they obviously don't realize how wonderful you are, and that what they are doing is obviously wrong, they just don't realize it. Then the highest court in the land say's "Sorry it's not that either one of you isn't wonderful, it's just that they have a right in this country to choose who they associate with". So you say "Well if they can choose who they can associate with, and they don't want to associate with me, then I'll work to cut they're funding and remove them from meeting places unitil I've hurt them so bad they will want to let me in their wonderful organization." Why would they want to harm a youth organization that they claim to love? If you asked somone on a date and they said no (note; I was non-gender specific) would you beat them until they realized what a good person you were? Dale et. al. had a right to seek membership, they had a right to take the BSA to court, they have a right to continue to try to hurt the organization that they say they love so much. The BSA has not tried to harm those who seek membership, they have not tried to take their income, or have them removed from their homes, or deny them access to their legal rights, or access to public properties. All the BSA said was "We have rights too, that are just as valid as yours. One of those is the right of association to choose our membership." The BSA has a right to say "no". The Constitution of the United States says so, the Supreme Court says so. The organizations that are trying to harm the BSA are hiding behind a veil of wanting membership in scouting. What they want is for scouting to validate their lifestyle or they want scouting to disappear. The tactics they have adopted have shown their real intent. (The preceding was an editorial and does not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of this station or the BSA. We return now to our regular broadcast schedule.) Bob White

Longhaul, Sorry it took so long to get back to you. i was first made aware of the "do your Best" criteria when I was asked by my Council executive to be on an appeals Board of review about 8 tears ago. At that time I was sent instructions from the national office Director of Boy Scout Advancement (I believe that was the title). It included a reference in the Advancement Policies and Procedures manual to a section that explained that nothing could be added or subtracted from the requirements and that the only level of performance was that the requirement be completed and the scout does his best. he was not to be held to any other measure of performance, such as, did he do as well as another scout did or as well as an adult wanted him. Since this was a major point in the appeal I contacted national for more information. It was explained that the "do your best" criteria was a another way to explain the rule about not adding or subtracting. There were examples of leaders who, for instance, wanted the swimming requirements where the scout swam a specified distance, completed within a certain time. if the scout did not swim fast eneough he was not passed. This was a Violation of the advancement regulation, since the handbook only requiress the scout to swim a specific didtance not a any required speed. Another leader leader wanted a scout who was compiling the his list of animals to identify specific varieties and sex of the specicies of the animal sighted. This also was a violation, for the requirement only asked the scout to name the animal. If a scout could give more detail thats fine, but if he did not know how to tell the male squirrel from the female and another scout did, you could not deny the advancement since the scout did his best and met the requirement. The specific paragraph was from a previous Advancement policies manual, and I could not find it in the current one in the same form it appeared before. The paragraph regarding not adding or subtracting is still there but the do your best statement is only in a paragraph in the cub advencement section. As I have said before the scout must still do what the handbook asks him to do. But he cannot be held to any performance standard other than completion of the task. It does not have to be done to any degree greater than, less than, or different from the information in his handbook. By the way in our instance it was a boy who was afraid of his scoutmaster (and I could understand why) when the SM stood over the boy and challenged him to tie his knots the scout became all thumbs. The boy had gotten his book signed by another adult, but the scoutmaaster wanted to see him tie the knots. When the Boy made mistakes due to his nervousness and didn't tie the knots fast enough for the Scoutmaster he erased the signature from the book. I gave the scout some ropes and a list of the knots I'd like him to try and said "Let me know when your done I'm going to go visit with some of the adults", a few minutes later the scout came to me with all the knots done perfectly. I signed the advancement form. I will continue to look through my files to see if I still have the letter fromm national. I hope this helps, Bob

Evmori, ...and a horse without wings is just a horse. If statistics are needed to validate the program here's one. Only 3.5% of the boys who join scouting will achieve Eagle Scout. Does that prove we fail 96.5% of the time? Should we get rid of Eagle Scout because so many boys never achieve it? After all "the numbers validate the program". The program is in the and handbooks of the BSA. Bob White

Tdyer56, Please see the paragraph on page 4 of the Insignia Guide titled Excess Insignia

evmori, Page 119 of the scoutmasters handbook in the box titled "First Class Emphasis" Says that a scout who achieves First Class First year has a better than average chance of eventually reaching Eagle. The only actual statistics I've seen were the ones released when the First Class First year Program was introduced. Which said that Scouts who did not reach First Class First Year were not only less likely to ever reach First Class but were far less likely to stay 3 years in the progarm. a scout who was first Class first Year usually syed in Scouts for over 3 years and almost always advanced beyond First Class. I will be happy to contact National for the specific stats. I have a question though. Since the Scout handbook says the scout should reach First Class First Year, and the Scoutmaster Handbook promotes First Class First Year, and the Advancement Policies and Procedures Manual promotes First Class First Year, and Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training promotes First Class First Year, And there is a First Class First Year tracking sheet, and a First Class First Year award certificate, what would the statistics have to say for you to support First Class First Year. Does the content of the manuals guide the program or the statistics? Bob

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Hi TomBeeb, The ceremony went out about midnight. I'll call the council office in the morning to make sure it arrived. Best of luck this weekend. Grey Fox If you want me to fax it to you instead of mailing to Philmont let me know. Bob

I'd let them keep Mt. Everest. NO I"M NOT NUTS. Please, let me explain. Two big reasons for letting the boys choose the activities is so thet they are doing the activities that interest them most, and so that they learn about making good choices. I bet alot of the scouts that wanted Mt. Everest don't even know where it is. I'd say OK lets plan. We need somebody to find where it is and research travel costs. Let us know what you find. Next! Avoid saying No, that's not the SM role in this situation. I know a troop out east where the Patrol Leaders Council said "Let's go to Hawaii." The scoutmaster sat silently and the boys looked his way and paused, waiting for him to no. Instead he said "make a plan." Guess where they went the next year. Aloha! Rather than saying "no", try saying "what do we we need to know". Maybe you won't climb Everest but you might go some places you never thought you'd get to go. And maybe the scouts will learn something along the way.

I don't know what's happening in your council's by in most, my own included, there is a volunteer committee in each District and a professional in the council assigned to ScoutReach. A program focused on bringing groups traditionally considered minorities into the scouting movement. We are a very rurual council, but as in most areas of the country there is a growing and changing population. We have been very successful and have a large number of minority families in the program, my son's troop included. We have from time to time produced local ads for scouting using "real" scouts. Some of the national ads and the new Fast Start video uses real scouts as well. Bob White

Quioxote, two things you need to know. the mission statement of the BSA does not say "produce Men that believe the Scout Oath and Law," it says "young people". However, since we are a private organization we are not subject to Title IX reguirements. Bob White

I disagree BigBeard, Good program does mora than just retain scouts it is the best advertising we have. Bob

I think that is what the BSA is saying KoreaScouter. the amount of activity the scout will take part in as he earns First Class hooks him on the program. First Class First Year is a program blueprint for the units to use. Bob White

I think that is what the BSA is saying KoreaScouter. the amount of activity the scout will take part in as he earns First Class hooks him on the program. First Class First Year is a program blueprint for the units to use. Bob White

You ask some good questions. My recommendation? As Unit volunteers we have the most effect on the growth of the Scouting movement. The answer is the Unit Program. Membership growth, membership retention and the spread of scouting comes down to this; How good was the last meeting? What am I doing to make the next meeting better? If more adults got trained, followed the scouting program, made the most of their time with the scouts, the program will continue to grow. Bob White

"The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical choices over their liftimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law" This mission is accomplished by specific methods that are designed to affect the three specific Aims of Scouting; Character Development, Citizenship Training, and Mental and Physical Fitness. These specific methods vary slightly with each of 3 programs as they are designed to affect youth at their various developmental stages. As far as a scouts go, their main interest is that scouting is fun. Fun is one of scouting most powerful tools. but it's just that, a tool, not a goal. If what we do is not achieving the mission and Aims of of scouting, and if we aren't using the methods of scouting, then it's not Scouting. There is a diference between Scouting, and just doing stuff in a scout uniform. Bob White

I would still stick to the Patrol Method. Let the troop elect a Senior Patrol Leader, Let the other two patrols elect their own Patrol Leader. Don't worry about the "smoothness" of troop operation worry about the "purpose" of troop operation, to give boys leadership training and the arena to lead in. It's about the opportunity to lead not about the efficiency of operation. As far as New Scout Patrols, I would wait until the next group of Webelos crosses over. Remember that the 30-day rotation of leadership in the New Scout patrol is to give the new scouts an understanding of troop and patrol operation not to teach leadership. In this first year they need to be working on Tenderfoot to First Class. Leadership training begins with their first regular elected or appointed office. Follow the Patrol method and you can't go wrong. Bob White

I doubt that this will ever happen in the US for two reasons. First opening Cubs and Boy Scouts to girls would seriously harm the GSA program and I don't think the BSA wants to do diminish the good works of that organization. As far as a merger between the two organizations, The GSA has a heritage and a program that they are deservedly proud of. I doubt that they are interested in a merger. I am not really concerned about a a huge loss of BSA volunteers if the programs did go coed. That was threatened if women became scoutmasters. A few adults did quit but not the mass exodus that some predicted. Just my opinion, Bob

Hi TomBeeb, I can get it within 70 miles of you. But I was thinking, if you want to post the Name phone and fax # of your Council office I can fax it right to them. Bob

Thanks Rick, I can't tell you how glad I am to hear you found it a rewarding exprerience. I've only met a couple of the others who were involved but I'll pass along your good words. Bob White (We may be the lowest on the Wood Badge food chain but we're wirey.)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Sager, I have to disagree with smaster101. If you choose the leader than thePatrol Leader doesn't feel they have the confidence of their patrol, and the patrol still feels you are in charge. Use the BSA program. Form New Scout Patrols. rotate the patrol leadership every 30days to allow each scout to learn about the the role of the Patrol Leader. If you don't have any older scouts to be the Troop Guide, train an assistant Scoutmaster to do the job until you get older scouts. The first year the most important thing is to work on Tenderfoot to First Class requirements to give them their basic skills and to hook them on the program. Then, after they get to First Class they will become a regular patrol or join a regular patrol and elect their Patrol Leader for a recommended 6-month tenure. The Patrol Method works in any size troop with any age of scout. Stick to the program, that's what the boys are promised in their handbook, that's what they joined Boy Scouts for. By the way what is the current scout structure of the troop? How many boys how many patrols? What Junior Leader positions do they have? Bob White