Bob White

CubsRgr8, Sounds like a very positive move to fix a very serious problem. Bob

sctmom, If the parents aren't getting it, could it be in the way the info is presented or what info is presented? There is a phrase in teaching that says "If the learner hasn't learned than the teacher hasn't taught". In the new New Leader Essentials the history of scouting along with the mission aims and methods of Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, Varsity and and Venturing is explained in just 90 minutes. In addition it explains the changing needs and characteristics of youth as go through developmental stages. Maybe this would be a helpful program to give the new parents early on in the their troop experience. Bob

Excuse my OGE but, if you are suggesting that we communicate information to adults in order to educate them about scouting, and to effect a change in their actions or attitiude.....isn't that a definition of training. Bob(This message has been edited by Bob White)

sctmom, What kind of an orientation to troop scouting are the parents given the first time they visit and when they join? Bob

k9goldscout, Those things you are asking individual parents to do are supposed to be handled by the scouts or the troop committee as a team. Why has your unit chosen to make parents do that and why would the troop maintain a policy that they know is causing such a huge loss of membership? The 30% drop off rate nationally is not meant to establish a norm that the units can compare themselves to. It's meant as a warning that units are not using the program and creating a terrible gap in program consistency while losing way too many boys from scouting. jmcquillan says we are not the only game in town. That doesn't mean you can't be the best game in town. You membership loss may seem normal to you, but it is not normal to the majority of troops and certainly not normal to troops using the scouting program. The method of pressing parents into serving the roles you suggest is not found as a method of troop operation anywhere in the offical scouting program. I urge you to re-think your methods, revisit scout leader training and get back to "the program", in order to stop causing so many boys and families to leave. Not counting the scouts who age-out or have thier families move, the troops I have seen over the years using the scouting methods will lose less than 10% of their total membership in any given year. Bob White

What kind of events are you asking them to do? Bob

Longhaul, I leave it up to the boys when they form or enter the patrol. Once the patrol is there, the scouts need to know that it's their patrol, and they have a responsibility to keep it going. The Bobster

I remember one time when a bunch of young people in my neighborhood all graduated and left for college the same year. Some families were left as empty nesters, others still had a few kids at home. The ones with children did not shift their kids to the ones who had none. The families stayed together. Keep the patrols together. Bob

CubsRgr8, Thank you for not being comfortable with such a statement. Pardon me while I try to type clearly as I grind my teeth. To casually write off the hopes of 10 boys is unforgivable. To know you have a program with a 50% first year failure rate, and not make immediate changes is unbelievable. would you take your child to a doctor who had a 50% success rate. Or even hire a plummer who said he could fix the problem about 50% of the time. I would take my son and run to another troop as fast as I could before he became just another statistic to this leader. No that is not, and should not, be acceptable to any leader. I don't care if five boys or fifty join the troop. Bob

ed-wasp, We might know each other. I use to be a scouter in Saratoga District. This goes back about 6 years or so. Bob White

We work extremely close with the New Scout Patrols on how to develp menus, shopping lists, and equipmwnt lists. They take turns shopping for the Patrol and the parents are instructed to help them find only what is on the list. By the time the end of the first year they are on their own. If they forget something or have a bad menu, it becomes a topic of review when they evaluate the outing. Then we begin the planning for the next outing while their mistakes are fresh in their mind so that they start by making sure they don't repeat their mistakes. Our only problem is that without fail the New Scout moms always send a bunch of extra food at the last minute usually cookies and sweets and stuff. It only takes us handing it back to them once and reminding them that the boys can only bring what they planned. The problem doesn't repeat itself. Bob

Thats GREAT Sager, I'm glad to hear that worked out for your scout. Thanks for going the extrqa mile to help him. Bob

Mike, We let the individual scout choose to remain in the existing patrol or choose another patrol. The reason is, we see this as a natural occurence. In life outside of the troop they are not assigned to their friends, they choose or are chosen by friends. In addition it's a life lesson. Scouting needs to be a safe testing ground where scouts can practice life skills. Learning how to choose who you want to associate with is an important skill. The scouts almost always make the choice that is right for them. On occassion, as their personalities develop, a scout will ask to change their Patrol affiliation. We handle that on a case by case basis. Our main concern is that the scout learns about making good choices in life. (some may see this as a record keeping problem. I would hate to have my scouting legacy include "He kept such nice records!" ) Rarely have I seen a Patrol fail whether it was a mixed age or single age Patrol. When it happens it's usually from an adult not following the program. Bob(This message has been edited by Bob White)

OGE, That's pretty much it in a nut shell. The player and the scouter have a right to cheer for whichever team they want. The BSA and the Bears have the right to choose their players. The only difference is that the BSA's right is protected by the constitution just as the players right is.

Ed you said "the BSA can't - I repeat - can't remove me from it's membership". Actually, Yes they can, and they have in recent past. The BSA's constitutional right to free association is no less valid, and on less protected, than your right to free speech. Just because you can say anything you want about the BSA does not mean you get to say it as a member of the BSA.

But, Ed not all 11 year old first class scouts are going to be elected Patrol Leader. Patrols can only elect 1 PL at at time. Even in a patrol of 8 eleven-year-olds only two at the most will be elected while they are 11. So if tou had a situation like my son's troop, with 4 Regular Patrols and 2 New Scout Patrols. The patrol leaders in the New Scout Patrols each have a 14 year old or older glued to them, and the 4 regular patrols each elected a scout over the age of 12. Nobody had to tell them to. They made the decision with their vote. It's Their Patrol and Their patrol Leader they have the right to choose who they want. Adults vote the wrong people into office for the wrong reasons all the time. Scouting give boys the opportunity to learn from their own experience and decisions how to vote responsibly. As far as who is Quartermaster and other troop officers, I'm sure your SPL would respect and welcome your suggestions on how he might select them. But it is HIS cabinet. He gets to make the choices. That's part of his leadership development. "Never do anything for a boy, that the boy can do for himself." Baden-Powell Bob

BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA NATIONAL OFFICE P.O. BOX 152079 IRVING, TX 75015-2079

"BobWhite, the main problem I have with your recent posts is that you are focusing on what the BSA may legally do as opposed to what is the right thing to do." The right thing to do is your job in scouting. If your job is to set policy or determine the program then you should do that. If your job is to do follow the program and deliver the BSA program to the youth in the unit you serve, then you should do that. Bob White

Yes Ed, You have a RIGHT to question BSA policy, and if you do it constructively to the the appropriate national committees, fine. Do it publicly as a scouter and the BSA has a RIGHT to remove you from membership. There are a lot of ways to be a bad leader not following your convictions is just one. Years ago as a young adult, I was invited to join a nationally known community service organization. I was selected as our intiates group representative and went through a very moving ceremony on behalf of my entry class. during the reception that followed, I learned that the organization was segregated (this was in the late 70's). I quit the day I joined, and I let them know why. I also let others in the community know what I thought of their legal but antiquated rules. (They have since changed their rules) My point is, I felt a responsibility to voice my disapproval of their ethics. But my own ethics (largely formed through scouting) told me it was hypocritical to tell others that "this organization was racist and Oh by-the-way look at me I'm a member". I would never belong to an organization who's values I could not accept. Had I stayed and voiced my opinion, I would fully expect to have been thrown out. That was that organizations right. You can't live in two worlds at once and be true to either, or yourself. There are a lot of ways to be a bad leader. Not speaking up about something you feel is wrong is one way. Not keeping your word to follow the rules or the program after you promised to, is another. If you voice your opinion to the BSA, I support your right to do so. If you voice it in public and the BSA removes you, I fully support their right to do so. You CAN disagree, and you CAN do something about it. But, do it in a way that the BSA says is inappropriate and you can be permanently removed. You are free to choose your method. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Eisely Is over generous in saying I found a way to make things works. It's not anything I discovered. Manys troops use the New Patrol program. As far as integration it really doesn't matter if the patrols are mixed age or not, as long as the boys are in a group they enjoy. In grade school and early high school my circle of friends were guys my own age. by the time I was 16 or 17 my circle had widened to include people older and younger that me. By starting the scouts in a New Patrol, then letting them stay together or mix on an individual basis, then patrols socializing during activities, and finally forming Venture patrols as they get to late teens, the scouts get the opportunity to develop in a natural progression. As I say the BSA has put alot of research into the program and I find it very effective. Bob(This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

sst3rd, I agree with most of what you say. i don't think these posts will change peoples minds but they might inform people who have not made a determination or wanted more information. However when you say "Unit option" already exists" it does on some membership topics but not on the avowed gay or athiest issue. That haas been ruled on by National and it is not a open to "Unit Option". In fact there are organizations that may not charter Scout Units any longer because the refused national exclusion of avowed gays. Other than that you are right. Bob

Hi mike, as a brief explaination of how the New Scout Patrol is supposed to work I explain how my son's troop uses it. We have two New Scout Patrols, I am the Assistant Scoutmaster assigned to the two patrols. We use the First Class Emphasis program which is a blueprint to give the New Scouts the activity and training needed to complete first class first year. Each Patrol has an older experienced scout as a Troop Guide. The troop guides and I plan the programs for these two patrols. Some of there activities involve thenm with the regular patrols and some are independent of the rest of the troop. The New Scouts are all the same age within a few months. they selected who they wanted to be in their patrol and we were able to honor most of the requests. Each patrol selected a patrol name and elected their patrol leader for the first 30-days. That patrol leader selected an Assistant Patrol Leader who will be the Patrol Leader 30-days from now and choose a new APL etc. etc. The Patrol Leader works side by side with the Troop Guide for a month and participates in a Patrol Leaders Council, to get a taste of a Regular Patrol Leaders job. Their skill training is done by other older scouts called Instructors. Each instructor has their own area of specialty that they teach. It is explained to the New Souts at the outset that when they reach First Class they can stay in their existing patrol or choose to join a Regular Patrol. One way or another, after everyone reaches First Class they are treated to the same program as the Regular Patrols and we start work on the next New Scout Patrol. The regular patrols elect leaders for 6-months and the patrol Leaders Council determines their program. The BSA has determined that New Scouts are often not physically, emotionally or socially ready to be incorporated fully with the older scouts. The New Scout Patrol program gives them a year's cushion to develop their skills and comfort level as well as gain size and maturity to better socialize with the older scouts. We have found this to be very effective and as a Troop Leader I have used this method for almost 20-years. I hope this helps, Bob White

Scouterpaul, I'll turn it back and say how does speaking out while as a member not violate "Obedient"? Look I'll be the first to admit this is a very layered situation. But the bottom line is if you speak publicly as a member of the BSA against the values of the program, the BSA rights to free association allow for you can be removed. You have a right to free speech. The BSA has a right to free association. Bob(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Koreascouter, We agree, it's a chicken or an egg in a way. But we agree that the goal is a program that makes First Class First Year possible and available to any scout who actively participates. Bob (By the way after studying the problem for centuries scientists have determined that the egg came first. It seems dinosaurs layed eggs long before chickens existed.)

Longhaul and scoutmom, Please don't miss understand me, I support and will defend your constitutional right to free and open speech. In return I ask you to support the BSA constitutional right to free assosiation. Neither right is greater than the other. publicly speaking out against the BSA's membership rules is your right as an American citizen. Denying your membership to a private organization for publicly decrying one of their values is a legal right of the BSA's. It's a double edged sword You don't get to choose who gets their constitutional rights and who doesn't. "If you knock down a house while your standing in it, don't be suprised if you get hit by the debris you create." 'a Bobism' Sctmom, You say "By expressing my opinion I am NOT being disobedient. I am not going against any policy or law." In fact, you are violating a BSA policy that says if you disagree with the values of scouting you can try to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobeying them by sharing your opinion with the National Committee. But if you speak as a scout leader publicly against the values of the program the BSA has the legal and constitional right to remove your membership from the BSA. Your opinion will be taken seriously by national, so will your public disapproval of the BSA if you do it as a BSA member. One will be accepted positively one negatively. The choice is left to you. Bob