Bob White

I agree that adventure is important, but not all units have the human resources to be good at all, or any, high adventure outdoor skills. If they have someone qualified to take them caving or rappelling or on white water activities thats a real plus. If the leaders are willing or able to take the time to get trained so they are competent and confident in teahing those skills that's terrific. If a unit needs to hire an individual or organization so that they can get experience or training to have a high adventure opportunity that's fine too. How they get adventure in their program is not as important as getting adventure in their program. Just my opinion, Bob White

Slont wovvy, I'd like to suggest a book to you, "How to Talk So That Kids Will Listen, & Listen So That Kids Will Talk" Faber and Mazlish. There are some methods it will explain to help you find the core of the problem and to help you understand what is tripping this young man's trigger and how to get him to appreciate your expectations. One thing you can do now is make sure you are reinforcing the good behaviour more than you react to the bad. When you compliment his good behaviour be specific about what exactly he did that was good. Rather than saying "I like when you act like this" say "I like the way you handled that problem, you stayed calm, gave it some thought and treated the other person with respect. That showed real character". When he messes up say "I was disappointed in the way you behaved. how could you have handled that better? (listen to his self evaluation) I think that would have been a better way to deal with that. Can I count on you to to do it that way next time? I know you are good scout I want others to be able to see you the way I do." It takes more time to treat each scout this way but you'll get far more growth from them and there will be more respect shared between you and each scout in the troop. Best of Luck, Bob White

KoreaScouter, If that's the case then the distinction that needs to be made is that a water activity could not be approved by the scoutmaster as a Patrol activity since the Safe Swim Defense plan requires an adult over 21 in charge. Once an adult is present, two must be present. Once two adults are present it is no longer a youth lead activity and a Tour Permit would need to be filed. The only cases where a Boy Scout unit is not required to file a Tour Permit (note that I never said they couldn't fill one out, just that they are not required to file it with council) is if they go to a home council owned camp, or if it is a patrol activity with NO adults. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that before. Bob (This message has been edited by Bob White)

nldscout, Pardon my if I sound a little defensive, but was there something in my response that you found to be untrue or incorrect? I would not want to be giving out inaccurate information. If you have a specific BSA resource that conflicts with the information I shared from the National and Local Tour Permits, the Scoutmaster Handbook and the Guide to Safe Scouting, or the recommendation to check with the local Council Executive, I would appreciate you sharing the specific information. Thanks for your help, Bob White

Eisely, The tenets of Youth Protection says that there can never be only one adult with the scouts. However the patrol method allows for patrols, which are youth lead, to go on overnight activities and hikes with the scoutmaster's permission. This has always been allowed in scouting since the beginning of the BSA program in 1910. Patrol activities without adults being present is outlined in the Boy Scout Handbook, The Junior Leader Handbook (now being replaced by the Patrol Leader Handbook, and the Senior Patrol Leader Handbook) The Scoutmaster Handbook, and the Guide to Safe Scouting. Since you mentioned the Guide to Safe Scouting, Let's look at what it says; "Two registered adult leaders, or one registered adult and a parent of a participating Scout, one of whom must be at least 21 years of age or older, are required for all trips or outings. There are a few instances, such as patrol activities, when no adult leadership is required. Coed overnight activities require male and female adult leaders, both of whom must be 21 years of age or older, and one of whom must be a registered member of the BSA. Bob

Sdriddle, To answer a specific part of your question. Not all scout activities require two deep leadership. you will find that the Guide to Safe Scouting, The Scoutmaster's Handbook, The Boy Scout Handbook, as well as other BSA resources allow for individual patrols who have the Scoutmaster's approval (as well as meeting other guidelines) can go on overnight campouts, hikes and other activities "on their own" with no adults present. (I expect the new Patrol Leaders Handbook will address the topic also.) Rather than go into specifics here I recommend you read the related materials and then I would be glad to answer any questions you have. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

texas Scouter and Eisely, The exemption for home council owned camps is in the first paragraph of the Local and National Tour permits. A patrol bike hike when adults are present would require a tour permit. Bob

Tyler, and MomScouter, The top paragraph of the tour permits exclude their use when traveling to a camp owned by your council. Some Councils also exclude their use when attending district or council staffed events such as camporees. When the Guide to Safe Scouting regulations are not followed, everyone is at risk. The BSA will not take responsibility or provide legal assistance or pay court fines for suits that result from activities where the policies of the BSA were not followed. The use of Tour Permits is part of those policies. Medical insurance coverage for injured youth would still be in effect, however adults run a high risk of losing the protection of their BSA owned liability insurance. Bob White

eisley, Tour permits are required for adult lead trips to any location except your home council-owned camps. This includes den, pack, and troop activities. Bike trips, canoe trip, hikes etc. where adults are present, must file a tour permit. A Patrol outing where no adults are present, and no motor vehicles are used, are not required to file tour permits. (they must know and follow all policies in the Guide to Safe Scouting that apply to their activity.) Scout activities where each scout is transported in a vehicle driven by his own parent or guardian, does not have to file a tour permit. Be aware that some councils have local preferences on the use of permits and you should check with your Council Executive if you have any question as to whether or not you need to submit one.

Now that we've established that everyone wants better ads from national, let's address the original question. "What can we do to keep the cool in scouting". Only this time lets say for the sake of discussion that the "we" is us. Since we can actually and immediately control our own actions we can effect real change at the unit level if we choose. "What can we as unit leaders do to keep the cool in scouting?"(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Rooster7 wrote"Why should they visit a troop if they are convinced that Scouting is un-cool?" Answer: Because boys don't choose whether to join based on ads. they choose by what they hear and see of scouts and scouting in their school, and neighborhood. They join because their parents understand what the program can offer. They join because of what they experience when they visit a troop as a guest of a scout or as a visiting Webelos. They join based on your your promise of leadership and adventure. They leave when we don't keep the promise. He then wrote "not because they know anything about the program but because our media has created a negative image of Scouting." The BSA has done some excellent ads for decades, locally and nationally, that has never altered the way the media portrays scouting and it never will. The writers of sitcoms and movies are payed to write scripts not promote scouting. A few ads won't change that culture. The "cool" thing is that scouting is so engrained in the americasn culture. Just think how often you hear scouting references as compared to 4H or Indian Guides, or even Pop Warner football. If your waiting for the media to quit making jokes about Scouts, or student council representatives, or class valedictorians, or alter boys, its not going to happen. The programs image in your community depends on you. Lastly he wrote "It's not a conspiracy Bob. Nobody is claiming to be perfectnor should the paid staff of BSA." No one is saying it's a conspiracy. No one is asking for, or claiming, perfection. I am suggesting we take responsibility for our own units ability to attract and retain members, rather than transfer the blame to national's ad campaign or lack of. As far as the comment about professional scouting...If you are suggesting I am anything other than a volunteer you are wrong. I have never been an employee of the BSA. You have a right to your opinion but it would be nice if it was in keeping with the theme of the original post. "what can we do to keep the cool in scouting" not "what do we wish someone else would do"

Yes, the BSA has the authority to revoke the Eagle Scout rank and any other emblem of the BSA. Whether or not that has been done you will probably never know. That action is usually kept confidential between the individual and the BSA in order to protect the program from frivilous lawsuits. Bob

Yes, the BSA has the authority to revoke the Eagle Scout rank and any other emblem of the BSA. Whether or not that has been done you will probably never know as that action is usually kept confidential between the individual and the BSA in order to protect the program from frivilous lawsuits. Bob(This message has been edited by Bob White)

sctmom, You wrote "you speak highly of the new scout patrol method. Did you see my other thread about the parents who pulled their boys out BECAUSE OF the new scout patrol method?" If you reread the description of how your son's troop operated on that campout and then read the scoutmaster handbook and attend Scoutmaster Job Specific Training, you'll see that the troop did not use the New Scout Patrol Method, they only grouped the boys in a patrol together. There is more to it than that, and a 60 second commercial will not remedy it. Nor will a series of 60 second commercials teach parents the patrol method. The point of this board was "How do we keep the cool in scouting?" We keep the "cool" in scouting by keeping the promise of scouting. Ads will not make what you do cool, or keep it cool. What you do in your scouting unit makes it cool. No ad campaign will do more for the unit you serve then you having a real scouting program. I enjoy seeing BSA ads like the scout reppelling down the mountain side to return a man's wallet, and I am absolutely sure that not one scout who joined my son's troop this year joined because they saw that ad. They joined because we had them visit a couple of times, we took them camping, we had a recruitment lock in, we had an information packet for the parents and we use the 8 methods of scouting. No ad will replace that. No ad is needed to support it. My son's troop is not the exception, the packs and troops that follow the program do don't need ads. The units that don't use the program won't be improved by ads. I'm not against seeing BSA ads in the media, but don't expect them to solve any of your problems. Ads only provide name recognition, they can't tell your cubs about your troops, they can't train your leaders or your parents, or plan your activities and they can't keep the "cool" in scouting. The question was "how do we keep the cool in scouting". Why does everyone want to talk about "what can somebody else do"?

Rooster, You wrote,"Agreed, but the dropout rate is not always attributable to the troop's leadership or the execution of the program" Only on rare occassions. for instance, Korea Scouter leads a troop on a military base where families can be transfered in large numbers. Other than those rare occassions, if you have a large turnover on a regular basis, it's the delivery of the program. As I pointed out earlier, most the posters who say they have high loss rates have also claimed in this board and others that they don't use key elements of the program. Units with strong programs don't need advertising to boost membership. Units lossing scouts now will only lose more scouts. I agree everyone speaks of being dedicated. What I've noticed, and what concerns me the most is that so many "dedicated" scouters also say they don't like or don't use the BSA program. Better retention would do as much or more for the program than the cool ad campaign. retention comes with delivering the BSA program and using the BSA methods.

Rooster7, My point is if your car's tire is going flat, the solution is not to pump in more air. If you don't fix the leak first your wasting the air. I we as leaders don't first solve the scout retention problem, pumping more scouts into scouting won't solve anything. The origanl point of this board was how to put the cool back in scouting. Too many leaders replying seem to want National to solve that problem. i believe national has by giving us the best youth program available. The responsibility for "cool" is in the program of the local unit. We put the cool in scouting Your unit is scouting to the young people in your unit. They don't care about what the ads show, they care about what they DO in their meetings and outings. Scouting flouished for decades before mass media even existed. We need to focus on what we can control not on what we wish someone else would do. The boys won't wait around for your wish to come true. They will stay because of what YOU do with them this week. BTW-I would prefer the words "dedicated to the scouting methods" over stubborn. Bob

So Tom, How did the eagle Court go? Bob

National has a pretty thourough explaination of how scouting works in the new 90-minute New Leader Essentials program. Everything else parents need to know about troop operation, Patrol operation, advancement, basic camping supplies, are already in one printed resource called the Boy Scout Handbook. For parents who want to understand the role of Patrol Leaders and Senior Patrol Leaders there are two new manuals about to hit your service center shelves on those to positions. The information on how scouting works is readily available for any adult. The problem lies in the degree of variation within the units. Many units don't use the scouting program elements that the handbook says will be used in the troop. All the info national can supply will be worthless if its not being used by the scout leaders. Bob(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Now I'm really confused. Which of these program problems that you say caused a loss of scouts would be fixed by a snappy ad campaign? Please explain how a perception of "Coolness" would change any one of these elements. *Transient area (where I live is a prime example - suburbs of Washington, D.C.) *Personality conflicts with other Scouts *Camping experience is not what the boy expected *Parents do not like the program or the leadership *The boy wants to be with his friends that are doing things outside of Scouting *Competition with other activities *inconsistent program *Try covering the Webelos program in 2 hours per month No Den Chiefs, tried for years to get a den chief from the troop. Finally got one just before my last 2 den meetings. (Introduced him to a Bear den that meets on the night he preferred.) * No enough outings. No time on my part to plan with work, planning den meetings. * Not enough intergreation with the troop on camping and other activities. * No one that I could call to get information or help on finding out about opportinities. Now read the list again and ask yourself how many elements would be effected by the actions and leadership choices that are available to adult leaders. We make the program cool, we control the delivery, we control retention. No matter what the boys cubbing experience is, once he is in the troop it is his Boy Scouting activities that will determine if he stays or drops out. We are not talking about perfect programs. We are talking about programs that use the methods of the BSA. Sctmom asks how are we going to get the kids there, if we dont have better ads? Why worry about that if we are not keeping the ones we get now. Imagine the best media ad you can for scouting, and then look at the your unit and the units around you. If you don't look like that ad right now, running the ad won't help you. Units that use the Scouting methods don't have recruitment problems. Think of all the posts that have been shared by leaders who... -Don't use the Patrol method. -Don't let boys elect leaders. -Dont use First Class emphasis. -Don't let the boys do the planning. -Don't use the New Scout Patrol -Don't use the Uniform correctly -Don't do enough outings -Don't allow Patrol Activities -Haven't gone to learn the program yet. BUT, they believe that a good ad campaign will add coolness and bring the boys running to them. I'm sorry, that just doesn't make any sense. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

I guess I see ads as a picture of the train not the shovel of coal that drives it. Your leadership is the shovel of coal. If the reality of your troop is that you are losing half your scouts, and we show a picture of that...how many scouts are going to show up. If you're keeping the promise of scouting, I'll bet that you don't have a joining problem. The comedian Jerry Seinfeld tells the story of the folks on the TV commercial telling how their detergent will get all those blood stains out of your laundry. Seinfeld's observation is "if your clothes are covered with blood stains, maybe laundry isn't your biggest problem!" There is a big difference between boys not joining and boys not staying. If, as many poster have said, you are losing nearly half of your new scouts the first year... "maybe national ads aren't your biggest problem." Bob White Mike Long You said "As far as retention has anyone even considered the fact that the onus is not completely on the Scout Troop?" Are you suggesting that a Pack and a den leader who have kept a boy in scouts and active and advancing for almost 5 years has some blame for a troop not being able to keep a boy for one year? So, If i'm keeping track of this string correctly, if we exclude my posts, the reason for boys dropping out the first year is parents, National marketing, the scouts themselves and now the Cub Leaders. Well we can breathe a collective sigh of relief knowing there are enough scapegoats to go around. Now we never half to look at our own responsibility once the Pack leaders and the parents entrust us with delivering the scouting program, because we know they are really at fault.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I don't disagree that marketing could bring more people in the door. But how does that solve the 50% drop off rate that many of the posters are claiming. I am not convinced that a good ad will suddenly make unit leaders deliver the program correctly. Bad Ads are not the cause of poor unit operation. If you're even losing 10% or more of your scouts to reasons other than aging out of families relocating you need to do some serious self evaluation. If you'renot keeping the promise of scouting a classy ad won't help you. If you're using the scouting methods and keeping "the promise" we make the boys in their handbook, then you won't be having a recruitment problem. It's just too easy to look at national and say "if only they would......., rather than look in a mirror and say if only I would ....... It's what your troop does each week that makes scouting cool in your community! Bob White

rooster7 You misunderstood me. I'm saying what makes scouting cool is what you did at your last meeting and last campout. No matter what gets promised in a TV ad if it's not happening in the unit we won't have more growth we will just have a larger group quitting. I never said the drop off rate was caused by a bad program. It is caused by bad delivery of a program. There is nothing wrong with the Boy Scout program. The units who use the 8 methods of scouting are not the ones causing the drop off rate, nor are they the ones suffering recruitment problems. If you are losing 50% of your scouts each year you are not providing a scouting program. That's where our problem lies, not it the flashiness of our ads. If I've struck a painful chord with anyone, it is not meant as a personal slam, but more of a wake up call. The only thing keeping a unit from following the scouting program is a personal choice by the leaders. You put the cool in scouting not an ad executive. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Keep in mind that marketing via the mass media is just the "sizzle". The steak, the meat of the program, is in the quality of your last troop meeting and your last outing. Advertising only gets them to look in the door, it doesn't make your program any better. If you have a quality scouting program you probably don't have a recruiting problem. If you are losing 50% of your new scouts, as some are reporting in another string, more effective advertising is only going to give you the opportunity to disappoint more boys each year. If I were on the the budget committee I would tell marketiing "you can have more money when the units show they can retain scouts". This isn't a "Them" problem, this is an "us" problem. Bob

OGE The recommended material to use is New Leader Essentials, and the new Fast Start video which is just being distributed to Councils as we post. Combined with your troop specific information, these short program, 90 Min. for NLE and I belive under 30 min. for Fast Start (I haven't recived the new version yet either) should bring any new parent up to speed about what scouting is and Why we do, What we do, and How we do it. Bob

OGE Yes, It is part of the new training you meentioned, called New Leader Essentials. Can I ask, and I don't mean to be flip, You say you know there is new training but what parts of it have you actually been to? It is far more detailed than before. Now when you go it is job specific training, you learn about and discuss your particular job responsibilities. How can it be more detailed than that? Bob