Bob White

sctmom, The Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual, answers most of your questions. The Scoutmaster Conference is ideally done by the Scoutmaster. Its purpose is to review the scouts accomplishments and set goals for the future, not to test the scout. The Scoutmaster Conference does not always need to take place last before the board of review it just needs to take place during each advancement period, and you can do more than one per scout. The Board of Review does not take place only when scouts are advancing but also when they are not advancing. The Boy Scout Handbook says that to meet the requirement of "Show Scout Spirit" a scout must demonstrate the ideals of the Oath and Law in every day life. I am not aware of anything that specifies it must be signed by the Scoutmaster. Whoever your troop (PLC) determines can approve advancement can sign this. The Scouting program is set up with many of the same checks and balances as our government so that the scouts learn about, and live, the governmental process in scouting. One of those checks and balances is the Board of review. there are times when we as leaders develop personal predjudices against individual boys. maybe it's because of hair length, jewelry (pierced ears), maybe we don't get along with the parents. These feelings can taint our objectivity to the scout's spirit. If you feel that the scout doesn't meet the ideals you don't have to sign. But remember you should not refuse the Board of reciew an opportunity to meet with the scout. The best thing to do is use the checks and balances in the system. Let 3 committee members, as a Board of Review, hear your opinion and talk to the scout. Let them be the jury to decide if the sciout advances. If three objective adults decide unanimously that the scout should advance... then he probably should. If they decide he has not met the Scout Spirit requirement then by BSA policy they must give him specific (I would recommend written) criteria for completion. it must however be unanimous and it must be within the written requirements of the program. The Scoutmaster is in charge of advancement but,not the final say in advancement within the troop, the Board of Review is. The Scoutmaster being "in charge" means that it is his or her responsibility to see that there is a program that gives advancement the opportunity to take place. I hope this helps, Bob White

OGE, Congratulations to your son and to you and the family. It sounds like a ceremony he will always remember. best wishes, Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

WoodBadgeEagle, sctmom, As far as the actual advancement refusal.. the problem was not in your not signing scout spirit but in not allowing the Board of Review to review him and set specific criteria for actions he needs to take to complete the requirements. The Scoutmaster is allowed to talk with the Board prior to the scout being present. If you have concerns about the scouts spriit share it with the board. Give them actual circumstances that lead you to this determination. Let them question the scout and make the decision. You as SM should not refuse advancement, but that does not mean you do not have a voice in it. But, let the Board meet with the scout. Bob(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Chippewa29, The evidence you seek is in the Scoutmasters Handbook. You are correct in that the SPL selects the other Troop officers, with guidance from the SM, but it needs to be the SPL's decision. There are a few exceptions, Den Chief, Junior Assistant Scoutmaster and Instructors, because they do not change based on troop election rotations. The same is true in patrol Elections. The Patrol Leader selects his assistant and all other positions in the patrol. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I feel as though I have had more experience in this area than I ever wanted to have. I've reached that age where the people who trained me in scouting, and whose shadow I developed in, are passing away all to quickly. I also had the unfortunate circumstance of two scouts in the pack I served as Cubmaster, die within 6 weeks of each other. It took a long time for us to recover. In all but one case, the families let the scouting community know what they wishes were. Most asked that we wore our uniforms. In one case I saw the obituary of a scouter I had not seen in over 15 years. He was a long time scouter and a man who helped train me. I went to his wake in uniform, and I was the only scouter there. On the Altar were 3 things that sigified his life, a tool from his shop, a photo of him with his wife and children, and a loving cup he won as a 16 year-old Sea Scout in a yacht race. His family was deeply touched that the scouting community remembered him after all these years and thanked me for being in uniform. I guess I'm saying the same as the others. Follow the family wishes and when all else fails follow you intuition. My condolences to your scouting family, Bob White

WoodBadgeEagle, You've mentioned a number of problems and questions. Let me try to address most of them. First of all I want to congratulate you on the degree to which you follow the patrol method. I read your other post and agree with almost everything you do. There are two areas where you stray from the scouting methods and by coincidence, these are the two areas that I believe have created your problem. First... with only a few exceptions, Merit Badges are not to be done as part of the troop program (see The Advancemnt Committee Policies and Procedures manual). Also they are not to be taught by scouts (as you stated in your other post), and they are not to be chosen for the scout as your troop does (and others do at summer camp). The reason there are 119 merit badges when only 21 are needed is so that boys can follow there own interests and choose there own path. You have scouts who fool around during MB presentations because you force them to work on topics that have no interest for them personally. Your structured MB program has made it possible for scouts to advance without individual choice or individual testing. It's cookie cutter scouting, and it allows scouts to advance who don't really want to, and aren't ready to. The second area causing your problem is... as you posted before, you don't allow your elected SPL to select his cabinet. You get people who are not appropriate for the troop officers. If the SPL was allowed to choose his ASPL and all other troop offices (there are a couple exceptions such as Troop Guides and JASM, that the SM should do) he would have scouts who he wants to work with, and who want to work with him. Did you do the right thing in stopping this scouts advancement? Yes BUT did you do it right? NO By not not allowing the Board of Review to; specify to the scout why he was not advancing, what requirements specifically were not met, and what needed to be done to meet the requirements, you did not follow correct advancement procedures. If and when the boy appeals, he will most likely be advanced, not because he deserves it but because you did not follow the advancement rules. OGE is right, allowing a scout to advance to this point and then trying to change him is very difficult, he has been taught that he can advance regardlees of his attitude. It is not a situation he created, it is one he has recognized and taken advantage of. Allowing scouts more direct contact with MB counselors, letting them choose their own Merit Badges, letting each scout advance or not at their own pace from Star to Eagle, and letting your SPL choose the other officers you will reduce or eliminate these problems. One last thing, it's OK to use troop time to introduce merit badges that relate to the selected monthly program theme, but the MB is not to be the troop program. Give them a taste and let them follow their own interests individually. Use the the Scoutmaster Handbook, Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures maual and the Troop Program Features (Volumes I,II and III) for more information on Troop Meeting Programs. I hope this helps, Bob White

I absolutely believe that the troop program should provide an active scout the opportunity he needs to reach First Class First Year, however I do not see how that has to exclude the earning of Merit Badges. Most Scouts attend summer camp within the first 6 months of joining and should be able to complete at least two Merit Badges. Depending on the activities they are involved in at school they can probably complete two or three during the course of their school work. Music, Scholarship, and Reading come to mind. I would never say, or recommend you say, "NO" to any scout who wants to achieve something. The BSA advancement program allows scouts to work on Merit Badges as soon as they join. I would hope no adult would create an artificial barrier to block the scouts interest in advancement. Bob White PS, there is no limit to the number of merit badges the scout can work on at one time. The scout is required to get a blue card from the SM before beginning work on any MB. The SM is responsible for making sure the scout meets any prerequesites listed in the MB requirements, and sees that the scout has contact information for a registered MB counselor. The SM should not refuse a scout a blue card unless the scout does not meet the prerequisites published in the MB book.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

ScouterPaul, Sounds like a great summer. Your cubs should have lots of fun. I will caution you on the canoeing for cub scouts however. There are very strict regulations on Cubs canoeing. Please review the Cub Leaders Handbook and the Guide to Safe Scouting. A trip is almost impossible because Cubs (including Webelos Scouts) are limited to canoeing and rafting at council/district events on flat water ponds or controlled lake areas free of powerboats and sailboats. In addition they must have passed the Boy Scout swimmer test or have a certified lifeguard in the canoe with them. Safety First, Bob

Mom Scouter, Every so often a unit goes through this same problem. It often is a situation that has grown gradually over the years, and since the Scoutmaster has remained the constant and families have come and gone, it was difficult to see developing. Your Scoutmaster likely does not have 40 years of experience. He has a few years of experience that he has repeated several times over forty years. Because of that he is doing the parts of scouting he remembers or is comfortable with, rather than the current program. Entrenched leaders often forget that the only Boy Scout Program is the current one. It changes because young people change, and good leaders change with it. Another problem is the attitude of "My Troop" rather than "the Troop that I serve". Once a Scoutmaster feels it is his or her troop they have lost the proper focus. An adult who understands that the troop is owned by the Chater Organization and administrated by the Charter representative and the unit committee, is more open to suggestions and improvements than the "my troop" scoutmaster. A good scoutmaster will not determine the scout program, he or she will deliver the scout program. Again, there is a big difference. The troop committee needs to decide if the scouts are getting the program they expected and deserve. If not, they need to require the scoutmaster to adjust to the current program or they need to replace him. It is the committee's choice as to what to do and the Scoutmaster's option to make the right decision. I understand the hesitation to replace a long time volunteer, but he has had 40 years to scout, your boys only get 7 1/2 at the most. you need to do what is right for them. In my occupation I teach that there are very few occassions when you need to fire an employee. most of the time the employee has already quit, they just forgot to leave. Somtimes as volunteers we are guilty of the same thing. We need to recognize when a leader has stopped doig the job and help them find the way out. Do not let the the emotions of the situation cloud the purpose. We are here for the boys, to deliver today's scouting program. If that means retraining the current Scoutmaster or selecting a new one, the committee needs to make the decision that serves the boys and act on it. The longer they wait the worse the situation will become. Good Luck, Bob White

Weekender makes some very good points. There are different ways to group the patrols. the important things to keep in mind are: 1. A troop is not divided into patrols, the patrols gather to form the troop. (it is a very important distinction!) 2. You can't choose someone elses friends for them. When you were younger, and even today, you get to choose who you socialize with, for that reason patrol membership should not be formed based on "however the leader chooses" but on however the boys choose. 3. The Scoutmaster Handbook, on page 20, recommends 3 patrol levels. New Scout, Regular and Venture. They are divided this way for very specific reasons. Then within these divisions the patrols would choose their own membership and leadership. It would be worthwhile to share this section with the leaders and committee. I also agree with Weekender that it sounds as if the Scoutmaster has never been through training. many of the decisions being made have no connection to the scouting methods. The committee needs to strongly encourage training for ALL adult vounteers. Best of Luck, Bob White

Mike, I never intended to imply we were arguing. I just felt, that for the topic being discussed, we needed to clarify the joining requirements. I think perhaps the adults involved in the origanal post might be confused as to those requirements. There is little to be gained in retaining a cub in the pack after he has the AOL, and there is no reason for a troop to ignore the joining requirements listed in the handbooks. Having been both a Cubmaster and a Scoutmaster, my feeling has always been to register the scout ASAP into whichever program he qualifies for. We started recruiting Tigers at the end of the school year (rather than Sept.) and got them to Day Camp right away. We always wanted the Webelos to crossover as soon as possible in order to get him a few weekend campouts experiences before heading to summer camp. It made a big difference by mid-week as to whether or not they got homesick. My son's current SM feels the same way. Best wishes, Bob(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Mike, I never intended to imply we were arguing. I just felt that, for the topic being discussed, we needed to clarify the joining requirements. I think perhaps the adults involved in the origanal post might be confused as to those requirements. There is little to be gained in retaining a cub in the pack after he has the AOL, and there is no reason for a troop to ignore the joining requirements listed in the handbooks. Having been both a Cubmaster and a Scoutmaster, my feeling has always been to register the scout ASAP into whichever program he qualifies for. We started recruiting Tigers at the end of the school year (rather than Sept.) and got them to Day Camp right away. We always wanted the Webelos to crossover as soon as possible in order to get him a few weekend campouts experiences before heading to summer camp. It made a big difference by mid-week as to whether or not they got homesick. My son's current SM feels the same way. Best wishes, Bob(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Right you are Mike, There is a typo on the Web site. When all else fails I look in the Boy Scout handbook. On page 4 in the first requirement for the scout badge it lists the joining requirements as being. Completed the 5th grade or is 11 years old, or has earned the Arrow of Light Award, but is under 18 years old. So the completion of 5th grade is only a requirement for boys who have not earned the AOL award. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Run back and check the web-site Mike. I copied and pasted the line I posted from it. All I did was BOLD the OR. Bob

Mike Long was the closest. The actual requirements are: Boy Scouting is available to boys who are 11 through 17 years old, or who have earned the Arrow of Light Award, or have completed the fifth grade. A local unit should not be applying other joining requirements beyond those set by the BSA.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I had time this morning to look it up. As it was mentioned before a maximum of six MB can be displayed on the right sleeve of the long sleeve uniform shirt in three rows of 2 MBs just above the cuff in position 4. There is "no limit" to the number of badges that may be worn on the MB sash. I take NO LIMIT to mean no maximum and no minimum since neither is stated. Bob(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I believe FScouter is correct.. including the smile;)

sdriddle, i have not seen the new Patrol Leaders Handbook yet and so I am not sure how patrol activities are being addressed. However, in the "Junior Leader Handbook which is being replaced by the new "Patrol Leader's Handbook" It suggests, hikes, weekend campouts, service projects, and simple good turns as just a few of the activities a patrol can consider. Actually the All the handbooks tell alot about Patrol activities if you look at them right. the Sm handbook, Scout Handbook, Troop Program features volumes, 1, 2, and 3 all help teach scouts how to plan and make good decisions, and that is really what Patrol Activities are about. its putting those lessons into practice. The resources don't list specific activities because it should be what the patrol wants to do not what the books or leaders tell them or even suggest to them. The choices are so many and varied that you couldn't list them all. It's what that particular Patrol is ready and wanting to do at a particular point in time. We give them the tools, they make the decisions. Bob

I agree with LongHaul, The Uniform should reflect a position in scouting that you are registered in , and that the uniform shirt designations should reflect only one position and branch of scouting. If you choose to have multiple shirts, fine. (I like using velcro for a lot of things, but as you have probably guessed I am not a big fan of using it on the uniform.) As a District Commissioner and an Assist. Scoutmaster, I own a shirt for each. When I am funtioning as the ASM, or training unit leaders, I dress as an ASM. When I am commissioning I dress as a Commissioner. Bob

Ed, Not at all. The use of patrol activities (without adults) has been an established part of the patrol method since 1907 and can be found in every handbook for boys and adults since that time. It was used heavily for many years and is still used by many troops throughout the country. The main reason it is not used as much is that most leaders don't actually read the handbooks and so don't realize that it is allowed. I remember as a scout going on patrol hikes and campouts about every other month. We alwys had to have SM permission, as is still the rule today. We also had to have written permission from parents stating they were aware that no adults would be present. Remember that during the summer, when kids are out of school and parents are working, kids do all sorts of activities without adults, why not scouting activities. To say to a teenager that they can ride their bikes with their friends without adults around but cannot ride with their Patrol without adults present is silly. As a SM for several years the troop's PLC established rules for Patrol Activities. They included, required permission, an activity plan (there had to be a constructive purpose to the event), a travel plan (hike, bike or be dropped off by parents), an emergency plan, all patrol members First Class or higher, and a report to the troop on completion of the event. Patrols who did independent activities had better troop attendance, advanced further, had better skills becuase they practiced mor, had better patrol spirit and stayed in the program longer than patrols that didn't. Why train them, if you don't trust them to do a good job while you are not around? The goal of the program is to help them function as individuals in a positive way. If they are First Class or higher and they do not have the skills needed to do this, that's the troop's programs problem to fix. If they don't have the behavioral attitude then they don't get to go until they can behave. If they choose not to do patrol activities then that's their choice as a patrol. Until they are ready to go alone you can give them the opportunity to go with two adults. When we did this the adults stayed within sight of the patrol, but had little or no interaction with the scouts. Some of the things the scouts that I served did without troop adults were; >overnight fishing at a local river on private land. > Bike Hikes of 10, 25 and 50 miles in a day > a garage sale for patrol equipment. > lawn service for a patrol member's elderly neighbor > Swimming at the local public pool > Bowling > one night campouts on private land. > Clean-up projects at local parks > In-town hikes to various museums, airport, fishing spots etc. > Clean-up hikes Never had a problem...Never had an injury. Lucky? Nope! Well trained scouts, and good plans. Hope this helps, Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

le Voyager, I share your enjoyment of the outdoors and the fun of high adventure. However I do not forsee the BSA ever putting the emphasis you suggest on the HA program. The main reason being, that even in the Venture program and certainly in the troop program, outdoor activities and high adventure are tools not the goal of the program. A scout who leaves the program as a good citizen and decision maker has achieved the program mission even if he has never experienced a high adventure activity. However the reverse would not be true. High Adventure is just one of many tools in the BSA tool box. I don't think it is any less important than the others nor is it any more important. For that reason I see it as always being a part of scouting but not having the administrative emphasis you suggest. Bob(This message has been edited by Bob White)

A point of clarification, A BSA or certified lifeguard is not a requirement of the Safety Afloat Plan it s just a recommendation. "It is strongly recommended that all units have at least one adult or older youth member currently trained as a BSA Lifeguard to assist in the planning and conducting of all activity afloat." (excerpted from The Guide to Safe Scouting) It has been the experience of the BSA that more members were injured by not following the safety regulations than by the lack of having a certified lifeguard. Regulations must be followed to insure participant safety and to maintain the adult liability protection. Recommendations are based on past experiences of other scout units and on the guidelines followed by amatuer and professional organizations who regularly participate or govern such activities. Recommendations are offered to help insure units have a well planned and successful trip. Not following recommendations will not affect your liability protection. I do agree that a higher level of lifesaving skill would be a logical safety precaution and I would certainly have someone on the crew trained in that skill if we were on such a trip. Hope this helps to clarify things, Bob White

Johnmbowen wrote "To answer Bob, I am fully aware that not all Troops are capable of buying rafts, or other gear...DONT" John you got the wrong guy! That wasn't me that said that, And no need to shout, i don't sit that far from the monitor. Bob

(reprinted from ealier forum of March 8 with apologies for length) OK here goes. This may take some space to describe but I hope you'll find it worthwhile. Ever notice how most units recruit by standing in front of the parents at a pack meeting and saying something like this. "It takes alot of work to run this pack and we need your help. Some of us are working 2 or three positions and if we don't get someone to help then we can't have (a Wolf den, a Pack, a Pinewood Derby, a Blue and Gold, pick the threat of your choice). So if you'd be willing to help keep things going, come see me or Joan Smith after the meeting". Does that sound familiar? Ever see a rush of parents charge the front of the room to sign up? Me either. The other method we've already discussed is the forced Sign-up list. The problems there are you get people who sign up knowing they will never follow through, or you get people who sign up for work they have no skill, characteristic or aptitude for. So here is the model that our most successful units use. They don't recruit, they SELECT their volunteers. It's very effective and takes some front end time to set-up then everything happens fairly quickly. Step 1- Briefly explain to parents the importance of the scouting program, Character-Citizenship-Mental and Physical Fitness. Then remind them that this is a family activity and that everyone has something that will help the Pack grow and go. (This is a good time to pass out the Parent Resource Sheet and some pens, let them have a few minutes to fill them out and collect them as they leave. Step 2- Identify the specific jobs that need to be done. Break them down into small manageable bites. Whats the starting date? the end date? the goal? How will they know when their successful? How does it benefit the boys? What resources are available to help make the job easier? and most important what characteristics and skills does a person need to do the job well. Step 3- Who do you have that has some of those skills and characteristics. (Here is where those resource sheets come in handy). Step 4- Prioritize the list for that specific job. Who would you most like to have do it. Step 5- Gather the resources for the job, make an appointment to visit the person at their home, office or restaurant. (Never make them come to you!) take anothe volunteer with you, preferably one they know. Step-6 Tell them the committe has identified an element missing from the pack that is keeping the boys from having a quality scouting experience, and that the missing element is them. "There is a job that has to been done and we have determined that you can do it better than anyone else." "Before you make a decision let us tell you about the job and show you all the tools we have for you to get the job done". Step 7- show them what you determined in steps 2&3. Step 8- remind them the value of the program and the value you see in them. Step 9- Give them the tools along with a application, welcome them to scouting. Now go see your next new volunteer. Finally, Keep Your Promise, don't add to the job or ask them to do a differnt job. When their done, give them a hardy handshake a big pat on the back and a gift (certificate, hat pin, dinner certificate). We have found that 8 out of 10 times we get the first person we ask. It works for every job in scouting. Remember, select don't recruit. Ask personally, privately and face-to-face. give them the scouting tools to do the job. Don't make it sound like work make it sound like they're important to the boys(they are)! Never complain in front of parents. Parents are volunteers you haven't been asked to help yet. No matter what the shape of the pack is smile and speak positively. People watch train wrecks from a distance they don't climb on board. Try it and see. Bob

A favorite real-life story I sometimes share at Eagle COHs involves my younger brother. About 15 years ago he applied tio atgtend the University of Chicago (Harvard of the Midwest). It was during a very thorough admissions interview held by the Board of Admissions that he learned the value of scouting. My brother was the Salutatorian of his High Scool Senior Class, the highest ranked boy in the class. He was the President of the National Honor Society, and was recognized as the Oustanding Music student, Outstanding Science Student, Outstanding Foreign Language Student. He did volunteer work for the local Meals-on-Wheels program and was an Altar Server at our church from the time he was 10 till he was 18. After the interview he was sent out of the room while the Board conferred. When he was brought back in he was told that not only was he accepted to the University but that he was the one of the best interviews they had ever had, there was one thing missing however from his credentials. (You probably see where this is going) The Board said they would have liked to have seen that he was an Eagle Scout. The value of the Eagle Scout Rank is 10% what other people make of it, and 90% of what it makes of you. Bob White