Bob White

Tyler56, You offer a very limited choice. "Do you have Den meetings and Pack meetings or do you shut down." Most packs I know don't do either. There is a middle ground. You can stay active but not have den or pack meetings per se. Day camp Family Camp Dads and lads (Moms too) Ice cream social Clean-up project 4th of July Parade Bowling party Pack Picnic Den Ice cream social Webelos Hike Rummage sale etc. etc. etc... So you can be active and not have den and pack meetings. I sure other posters will give you some other activity ideas. Hope this helps, Bob (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Patrol activities update.... Just thought I'd share this. I just got my new Patrol Leader Handbook today. By the way I like it alot, much better than the Junior Leader Handbook it replaces(cost is $7.95). Anyway, I wanted to share this paragraph from page 28 "Your Patrol Activities" "Most patrol activities take place within the framework of the troop. However, patrols may also set out on day hikes, service projects and overnighters independent of the troop and free of adult leadership as long as they follow two rules: > The scoutmaster approves the patrol activity. > The patrol activity does not interfere with any troop function." The next paragraph goes on to say, " A patrol activity without adult supervision should be allowed only when it has been thoroughly planned and the Scoutmaster is satisfied the activity is well within patrol member's levels of training and responsibility. If the scoutmaster has any doubts, he should encourage the patrol to reconsider its plans or should assign adults to accompany the patrol during the activity." The handbook also contains suggestions of things to do and has a planning sheet the patrol can fill out to give to the scoutmaster detailing their plan. This should establish without any question that individual patrol activities, without adults, continues to be part of the patrol method and is an approved and recommended program element. Bob White

That's just the point we are trying to make evmori, BoRs can take place when advancement is not happening , not just when it is. Often when, the occassion arises, a Sm "refuses" to sign a requirement all it does is create more distance between the SM and the scout or the SM and the family. A better solution is to use the checks and balances the program has in place. Let the scout go before the BoR. Tell the board ahead of time what your concerns are and what you think needs to happen before you feel the boy has completed the requirement. let the Board interview the scout and determine if you were right, sometimes a SM persomanl feelings get in the way of his or her judgement. let the board determine if the scout is ready to advance. That's their role. I know of know resource or instruction in the BSA program that gives the SM sole authority to sign scout spirit. Do you? Let the board do it's job in this case. If three committee members unanimously decide he should advance, then he should. Otherwise an action plan has to be agreed upon with the scout as to specific, measurable actions that must be taken to meet the requirement. The scoutmaster should not be made the focal point of conflicts in the troop even if he is willing to volunteer to do so. Share the leadership responsibilities with others in their role in troop operations. Advancement concerns belong to the advancement chair and the BoR. I urge you to read page 108 under requirement 9 and see who the BSA says is the best judge of Scout Spirit. Bob White PS, Attitude is everything! I am very uncomfortable with the phrase "a SM refuses to sign". I would hope you mean that "the requirement is not ready to sign". Our role is not to accept or refuse advancement. As SM and ASM our role is to make advancement opportunities happen and to recognize the completion of requirements. If a requirement isn't signed it's not because anyone refused it. It is because the scout has yet to complete it. Boards of review accept or deny advancement.

Ed, i'm still waiting for a reply. I will follow-up later this week with another phone call. Bob

Ed, Unless the require stipulates that it must be done at a certain time the MB counselor has the the choice as to what he or she will accept. They cannot add to or take from the requirements. Bob

Although BSA forms can be obtained on line, the only BSA publication I am aware of that can be downloaded in its entirety is the Guide to Safe Scouting. The Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual can be purchased at your Council Service Center. Bob

Mike, You raise one the most frustrating parts of training. Remember that the council and district training teams are made of volunteers just like the units. In fact many trainers are also unit volunteers. The best way to get us district and council folks to get the job done (if it's not getting done) is to get your Charter Organization Rep to a District meeting and say "when can we expect this to happen" (just seeing a COR there will probably shock them into action) If your COR won't go then you go. Better yet get a group of scouters together and call the District Training Chair and say "we are ready send a team, or give us a syllabus, video and handouts". As you see I have as little sympathy for a trainer that won't train as I do for a leader who won't go to training. As Red Green would say "I'm Pullin for ya, Remember we're all in this together". Bob White (newly appointed) District Training Coordinator PS, Beginning in May our district has 3 training sessions going on in our District each month for the next 12 months.

The W.D. Boyce council which has it's service center in Peoria IL. has as its slogan "Home of the Founder" because of a connection that Boyce had to a little town north of Peoria (within the council borders) called Ottowa. A more precise slogan for the council would be "Summer Vacation Home of the Founder" or "Burial site of the Founder". Boyce built a summer home along the Illinois river there late in his life and spend a few summers there before his death. Boyce's grave is in Ottowa, IL. Did the unknown scout exist? Probably. Was it foggy in London? Probably. Was Boyce lost? Probably. The romanticized part is why Boyce was there. the story says he was in England on business, got lost and the scout took him to his appointment. The scout would not accept a tip and told Boyce about scouting and Baden-Powell. So moved by the boy that Boyce met with BP and brought scouting to tyhe USA. In actuallity Boyce was in London on his way to meet BP to secure the publishing rights for his book "Scouting for Boys" which at the time was the #1 selling book in Europe. Being an enterprising publisher from Chicago, Boyce wanted the rights to sell the book in America. Boyce was never looking to start a movement to benefit youth. He was a business man who sold books and saw a chance to sell alot of them. If anything, he made it possible for kids across the country to become Lone Wolf Scouts, and it was their enthusiasm over BPs writings that made the movement take off here as it had already done in eight other countries. From there the history takes all sorts of twists and turns as the teachings of Daniel Carter Beard, Ernest Thompson Seton, Boyce's battle with William Randolph Hearst for the BSA name and the leadership of James West all meld together. Boyce was certainly instrumental, but he couldn't have produced todays program without the skills and vision of the others. Bob There is other neat history trivia like, Star Life and Eagle were not always in that order and were not always ranks. They were enhancements to the highest rank-First Class. Norman Rockwells first job was as an illustator for Boys' Life when he was a teenager. Why the Troop flag is red over white? Did you know the current Boy Scout Uniform was designed by a big name fashion designer? That there was a scout manual that gave 101 uses for the neckerchief? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Eagle WB, The Boy Scout Handbook pg 187 says for the first step in earning a MB, "Obtain from your Scoutmaster a signed Merit Badge application and the name of a qualified counselor for that merit badge." It's OK if the counselor doesn't ask for it right away (although they should), but the scout needs to notify his SM first and get a blue card and an approved counselor. Hope this helps, Bob(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Safety Afloat and Safe Swim Defense are generally offered each week of summer camp. Those courses are not the responsibility of the District or Council Training Committees in most councils. My advice is to contact your council's professional responsible for summer camp and obtain contact information on individuals who are approved Aquatics Counselors or others who are authorized by the council to approve these two certifications. Call them and arrange a time they can meet with your leaders to do the training. Both can be covered in 60 to 90 minutes. you might even ask your Roundtable Commissioner to do it as a RT program. Best of Luck, Bob

Welcome dbraxtonw, He is right on the money OGE. The only prerequisite is that you have completed the basic training for your position. As a Venture leader that would include: 1 Venture Fast Start 2 New Leader Essentials 3 Venture Leader Specific Training There is no longer a minimum tenure in office required before attending Wood Badge. Bob

WoodBadgeEagle, You raise some interesting points. I hope you won't mind me commenting on some. (as if I wouldn't. 1)The amount of training adult leaders NEED to go through The nationwide goal given every council is a 100% trained volunteer force. That is that all registered adults will go through the basic training for their position in scouting. In addition, Wood Badge leadership training is now available for all volunteers in all traditional scouting programs as well as district and council volunteers, immediately upon completing their BASIC Training. Here is the rub.... the only people who can make that happen are the Charter organizations and the Charter Reps insisting that all unit volunteers get trained. No one else has the authority to make it happen. We can provide the opportunity but we cannot make volunteers attend. 2) The content of the training being clear enough on this Policy. This specific policy is not discussed in Scoutmaster Leader Specific, however a video of a SMC and a BoR is shown and the Adv. Committee Policy and Procedures resource is referenced. A tip. don't ask a trainer what the answer to a question is unless you want an opinion. If you want the BSA program answer, ask the trainer what resource the answer can be found in. 3) Everyone strays from time to time. I admire your willingness to learn and follow the program and not act out of habit or reject the BSA method because it does not suit you personally. Your scouts will have a better scouting experience because of that. 5)Unfortunately previous scout leader training courses relied on the individual skill of the trainer to follow the syllabus and deliver the actual scouting method and not their own version. The quality, and especially the content, of training varied greatly across the country. The new training program with more video and the addition of PowerPoint will help to even things out. However the responsibility is still on the adult to read the boys handbooks and the leader handbooks, something that most adults just don't do. 6)Just a side note..Outdoor Experience no longer exists. A much better program has replaced it. Introduction to Outdoor Skills starts on a Friday evening and runs to early afternoon on Sunday. It takes SM and Asst. SMs through all the outdoor skills up to First Class level. 7) Congratulations on being selected for Wood Badge staff. With your attitude I'm confident it was a good selection. I hope you enjoy Wood Badge for the 21st Century. It is different from what you took but I think you will agree it is an excellent course. Best wishes, Bob

Hi Sager, Your right about some of the deficiences of Scoutmaster Fundamentals. For that reason it was replaced as of August of 2001 with a 90 minuteNew Leader essentials, a 7 1/2 hour course called Scoutmaster/Assistant Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training, a weekend course Introduction to Outdoor Skills, and the 3 hour Troop Committee Challenge. By separating out the two groups it gives more time to spend on each. Troop Program Features was not in print when the SMF syllabus was written. Another book call Woods Wisdom was being used at the time. Your local training team should have substituted the new resources for the old. That was the biggest weakness of SMF, the syllabus relied heavily on the knowledge and teaching skill of each local training team. The quality of those teams very radically throughout the country. The new syllabus makes greater use of a structured presentation utilizing PowerPoint presentations and video tape to a far greater degree. This helps to insure more consistant information sharing throughout the nation. Most paper work, except for program planning is in the Committee training, because that is who should be doing it. The biggest problem is still the time restraint. 7 1/2 hours is not enough time to cover everything. However as a whole, adults won't come in large numbers to longer training. The plan is that if we (District and Council training teams) can get leaders; in the training door, give them usefull info to get them started, then they will; read the books, attend Roundtables, go to Wood Badge, ask questions.... Many do.. but many don't. Far too many leaders go to basic training once in their career and say "I am trained so what I do must be right." As for the Junior Leader Training, that to is in the process of being revised. The first step is done. NEW Patrol Leader and Senior Patrol Leader handbooks are now available through your Council Service Center. National is in the process of reviewing and restructuring junior leader training at the Troop, Council and National level. One thing you'll learn is that there really isn't a problem or question that hasn't already been addressed in at least one BSA printed resource. Most things are covered in the boys handbooks, the adult leader handbooks, the Guide to Safe Scouting, the insignia guide and the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual. A complete list of the print and video resources of the BSA (Scouting Resource Library, I beleive is the name)is available from your council service center or throuh your scouting catalog, I think it's $1 or $2. Hope this helps Bob

Sorry Sager, It seemed to me like your concern was the time it would take to do all those activities. I would think most scouts make the twenty days and nights in less than one year. After they attend summer camp it is only 7 weekend campouts to complete the required time. I agree with the others, it's up to the counselor not the dad. As a camping MB couselor I accept verification from the troop that the scout has met the 20 days and nights. Bob

Yarrow, I believe you have misinterpreted the requirement. 9a says "Camp out a total of at least 20 days and 20 nights. (You may use a week of long-term camp toward this requirement.) Sleep each night under the sky or in a tent you have pitched." 9b says " On any of these camping experiences, you must do TWO of the following, only with proper preparation and under qualified supervision:" it then goes on to list 6 items. Note that it says on any not on every. Your scouts only need to do one campout where they do 2 of the 6 listed items. Bob White

LongHaul I said "Did you do the right thing in stopping this scouts advancement? Yes, BUT did you do it right? NO" I continued by saying "By not not allowing the Board of Review to; specify to the scout why he was not advancing, what requirements specifically were not met, and what needed to be done to meet the requirements, you did not follow correct advancement procedures." I did not say he should pass him. I said he should have sent him to the Board of Review. That is not rubber stamping that is due process. It is not the SM's job to refuse advancement it is for the Board of Review to determine. Bob White

LongHaul, Where did I say the board should pass him? What I said is that the board should have taken place. Let 3 committee members let him know that his behavior is unacceptable, once they determine it is, and set the conditions for him to complete the Scout Spirit requirement. Refusing advancement is not in the job description of the SM. It is the responsibility of the BOR. The only real change you can expect in the new Advancement Policy manual is the inclusion of Venture scouting. So feel free to read the current manual. Bob

There seems to be some scouters with a misconception of United ways structure and their support of scouting. Here are some excerpts from the www.National.unitedway.org regarding funding to scouting. United Way organizations have a long history of support for non-profit organizations that provide services to young people, including local chapters of the Boy Scouts of America. United Way of Americas research indicates that United Way organizations distributed $83,743,000 in funding in 1996 to Boy Scouts of America nationwide. * Action taken by the volunteer board of any local United Way has no bearing on any other United Way or Boy Scout Council across the country. United Way of America as the national membership service and training organization for local United Way organizations, does not dictate policy or funding decisions to local United Ways except to the extent that funding decisions must be consistent with applicable laws. From 1992 through June 2000, only the eight independent local United Ways in San Francisco, Santa Clara and Santa Cruz, CA; New Haven, CT; Branford, CT; Santa Fe, NM; Portland, ME; and Somerset County New Jersey adopted anti-discrimination policies affected their funding relationship with the Boy Scouts. Since 2000 have more local United Ways dropped their support of scouting? Yes, but it is still a very small percentage nationwide. Interestingly enough in most communities where that has happened, the financial support of scouting has risen and the United Way funding has slowed in growth or even decreased. In my own council where we draw from over a dozen counties, we still enjoy UW support in every county in the council. How long will this continue? Who knows. Maybe scouting will change? maybe United Way will? My son's Troop will still meet on Monday and the district and council will continue to do it's job. If we provide the program, the community will support it. We do not live and breath by United Way. It has been a good partnership in our community and I think that UW stands to lose more than we do. just my .02 Bob White

Longhaul, Rubber stamp? Not at all. Rules and regs Guy? Probably guilty, but not just in scouting. I don't exceed the speed limit, I don't get in the express lane with more than the posted number of groceries, I don't park in the handicapped space even in pouring down rain. I was raised in scouting and taught that rules matter. You left out "Methods" guy. I follow the rules regs and methods of the BSA because I signed an agreement when I joined to do so and I take my word seriously. Because I use the scouting methods I have time to know and understand each scout individually, I know each boy's strengths weaknesses, hobbies, parents, goals etc. Rarely do the scouts I serve leave before they turn 18. Everyone earns First Class, I can only think of a couple who didn't go higher. I've always had the largest or next to the largest unit membership in the District. We have never had the same program activities two years in a row. It's less about knowing the rules and regs and more about understanding their role in achieving the scouting Aims. It's like a big jig saw puzzle, everything fits together and every piece is needed to complete the picture. I'm always amused when a question is posted and when I respond with "here is what the program says and here's where it says it." I'm met with "Oh you are a rules and regs guy!, that's not how we do it!" the fact that that's not how you do it is what caused the problem. A few posters have found the information I share from scouting useful. It's not "my way of scouting" it's the "scouting program" I just share what that program is. If you don't like the message don't kill the messenger. Bob White

WBE, OUCH! I'm sorry if you felt jumped on. You posted the circumstances and asked for feedback. I did not say that what you were doing broke the rules. I said what you were doing did not follow the methods and purpose of the program. There are a lot of ways to get more scouts to advance and to teach MBs that are far more efficient that the scout method, but they are not scouting. The purpose of scouting is not good attendance. If a troop served free pizza every week and played ddge ball the rest of the meeting you could have great attendance, but it wouldn't be scouting. You could have a MB couselor lecture the scouts for 6 hrs a month and they would learn alot, but that's not scouting. It's following the 8 methods of scouting, and achieving the 3 Aims of the program that makes the BSA unique. There is a difference betwen doing things in a scout uniform, and scouting. As I said in the other post you refered to, I was impressed with how much of the patrol method you used and how well you used it, but that I felt the problems you said you were having stemmed from two areas were you strayed from the program. Believe me I don't know all the rules, but I do know the resources where to find them. As a member of the commissioners service I 've had a lot of experience being invited into to units to help solve problems. The solution always involves returning to a scouting method or methods that they have strayed from or didn't understand. There is no harm in not knowing, it takes a while to really know the program. The harm comes in knowing and ignoring. YIS, Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

ScouterPaul, Please read my respnse to rooster and read the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual regarding who signs advancement requirements. Nowhere in any scout resource that I am aware of is this solely the SM responsibility. Then read the Boy Scout Handbook in the Second Class Scout section about this requirement where it says that no one is better qualified to determine if the scout lives by the scout Oath and Law than the scout himself. You ask "Are we teaching the boys that it is okay to go behind the back of your leader, your boss, your parent ect. to get what you want." Not in any troop I've ever served, and not in most troops I've visited, who followed the BSA program. I'm more worried about what scouts learn in troops that don't know and follow the scouting program. Bob White

WoodBadgeEagle, Sorry you got in just a moment after me. You are right on the money about the Scoutmaster Conference. Hey, I see you are from Oticeana Council. (did I spell that almost right?) A good friend of mine used to be there. I have great memories of staying in the big A-frame at Massawepee and cross-country skiing there. I got to see Camp Butler as it was deveolped, you have a wonderful area to be scouting in. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Longhaul, When you read the description of the Scoutmaster conference in any BSA resource including the Boy Scout Handbook, The Scoutmaster Handbook, The Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual, or view the advancement video used for scoutmaster training, you will see there is nothing that can be passed or failed. The SMC is a conversation between an adult (preferably the Scoutmaster) and the scout. The topic of discussion is the scouts successes and his next set of goals. You cannot retest the scout although you can certainly talk about his skills. "it is through this association that a young man grows and matures" (Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual) Bob White

Rooster, I know you and I don't see many things eye to eye, so when I give references (or absense of references) it is so that it is clear these are not my interpretation of the program , but the written program. You asked the following questions 1. What happens if it's not unanimous? Majority rule to advance? Answer; The Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual pg. 19 right hand column bold letters The decision of the board of review is arrived at through discussion and must be unanimous." 1.Once the SM refuses to sign off on Scout Spirit, does anyone else have authority to do so? Answer. Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual pg 16 "A scout can be tested on his rank requirements by his patrol leader, Scoutmaster, a troop committee memberor member of his troop. The Scoutmaster maintains a list of those qualified to give tests and to pass candidates." Nowhere in the resourses of the BSA does it say only the SM can sign. 2.Can someone else come behind the SM and sign off a Scout for Scout Spirit? Answer; see answer #1 3.If so, wouldn't this circumvent the authority of the SM? Answer; I am not familiar with that term. The scoutmaster has several responsibilities in advancement, but I know of no reference to, or bestowment of, authority in any BSA literature or training regarding advancement (other than the authority of the National Advancement Committee). 4.Can the advancement committee "overrule" the SM and sign the boy off on a requirement? Answer; The Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual pages 22 and 23 explains the appeals process. There are several layers that a scout can appeal to based on one of two actions. First if a unit leader or committee member does not recommend a Board of review and secondly if that Board of review does not advance the scout. This information is written in the Eagle section but applies to all rank advancements. If in the appeal process it is determined that the scout has not met the requirements, the scout will be given specific action to take to meet the requirement. If during the appeal it is determined that adults did not follow BSA advancement policy and procedure then the scout will be advanced. Since the only "authority" in advancement is the National Advancement Committee and not the Scoutmaster, the it reasons that no one is "over-ruled". Regards, Bob White

It sounds to me like you've got it WoodBadgeEagle. The elements you describe are in keeping with the regulations and the teachings of the Handbooks. It shares responsibility with the SM the Troop leadership and the committee as well as the scout himself. It teaches the scouts reaponsibility and self management, and uses the workings of the troop to set an example of participating citizenship and government. Don't worry about what was, you should be proud of the fact that you are still learning and still open to learning. other posters on this board have taught me a thing or two. When we stop learning we stop growing. Best wishes, Bob White