Bob White

HEY GUYS! This isn't even the topic of the thread for cryin out loud. You want to play theologians that's fine. Start an appropriate thread. Throw Bibles at each other all day long. But please quit taking over topics and perverting their intent. Bob

Reconsider what you wrote Ed, "Demonstrating their knowledge is the same as seeing how they teach" then you say "And being able to do doesn't mean you can teach! " One statement contradicts the other. If you hand a musician a sheet of music and they play it, they demonstrate their skill and knowledge but, you still don't have the slightest clue if they can teach. When my son got Truck Transportation the MB couselor followed the syllabus, it was obvious though his skill was being a dispatcher not a teacher. (By the way I wonder how he would have demonstrated his skill at a campout) But he knew his job and his industry. teaching was obviously not a job qualification but he was a good counselor. I've seen Range masters who were crack shots that were poor counselors because no one explained to them their role as a MB counselor and others who never shot but were great instructors. The summer camp my son is attending has Space Exploration as a MB. Now I'll go out on a limb here and guess that the counselor is not an astronaut and has never been involved in the operation of a space shuttle or built a jet engine, but you say "Ya can't show if ya can't do" and I don't think that applies to well here. I'll bet using diagrams and other resources he can do just fine with a knowledge level of high-school physics. My point is to others reading these posts, let The advancement committe do their job. Let go of things that aren't your responsibility and focus on what is. At the very least let your committee advancement chair worry about MB counselors. As Scoutmasters and Asst. Scoutmasters we have other responsibilities. This isn't one of them. Bob

Turn and Fire Now we agree. Taking time to train them (see how they teach) is a far cry from getting them to demenstrate their knowledge to a unit leader. If you recruit a MB couselor you should make sure they understand how to be a MB counselor. They should not be made to prove themselves to you in thier field other than listing their qualifications as the application requires. Bob

Ed, I understand we are not talking the entire camp just specific facilities. As I say it's a common program philosophy. If you can use it during camporees it sounds like the council isn't being as inflexible as it sounded in your previous posts. Another thing to consider is Cub camping is different from troop camping, it requires larger buidings to accomodate larger numbers of scouts and all the adults. Most troops are usually much smaller. In my District we have 39 Troops and I would guess only 4 of us would be able to fill that big cabin. It makes sense to reserve it for packs. 0f our 49 packs I can only think of two that would not fill that cabin to capacity (and beyond). Bob

I just wanted new leaders or untrained leaders reading this string to understand that appoving MB counselors is not something they need to do as unit leaders. We only need to have the correct applications completed and sent in. Only the District and Council Advancement Committees have the responsibility and authority to verify and approve MB counselors. If they see MB Counselor application come in that shows a music degree and a teaching and performance background they can make a qualified decision without hearing a single note being played. Just my thoughts, Bob

As you said ed "The facilities were at one time for both Boy & Cub Scouts.' That was then this is now. Things change. it sounds to me like the council is following the program plan that, as I said before, many councilks throughout the country are going to. Separaste facilities for the different programs. This gives each age group new experiences, it allows program elements at the different facilities to be targeted to a specific program need. You have not been denied all buildings, just the ones for Cubs Scouts. In the Councils using this method the Cubs are almost always reatricted from the facilities set aside for Boy Scouts only. At our council camps there are facilities for summer camp staff that are only used by the camp staff. the rest of the year no one can use them. They have a specific purpose and cub and troop camping are not part of it. We have other resources as I am sure you do. This is not a bad thing, it's just new and change requires patience and a larger view of things. Bob

The new Patrol Leaders handbook chapter 4 is titled Leading the Patrol M eeting. It includes Planning the Meeting, The Patrol Meeting Agenda, Making Assignments, and Checking Advancement Progress. Bob White

Ed, That's my point, The merit badge counselor doesn't require your approval by performance. They put their credentials on the MB Counselor application and it is reviewd by the District Advancement Committee who follow up on any question of capabilities. My wife who works for the insurance company, has a music degree a taught K-12 and is more than qualified but, she doesn't camp with the troop and I don't think they want to sing campfire songs to classical flute. My concern is you don't mention training them on how to be a merit badge counselor, you just field inspect their skills. Just because she plays an instrument wouldn't tell you if she understood her role or responsibilities as a MB counselor. I'd offer that you allow the District Advancement Committee to review credentials and you sit down with the parent and go over the booklet on how to counsel a merit badge. Doesn't that seem more beneficial? Bob

Evmori, I don't mean to sound snide but, if I understand it right you and some other volunteers worked on some council property and now feel that you should be able to use it as you see fit forever. The work wasn't done to help the program, just the ones who worked on it? Look at it this way, if you had not done that work, the council would have remodeled that building for Cub use anyway once it became a Cub Scout camp. Your situation would be no different than it is today. You would simply not have done a Good Turn for the council. On the otherhand, by the volunteers remodeling that building, the council did not have to spend as much money converting it to a Cub Scout camp and so they had more money available for the NEW Boy Scout camp. You Won. Your council is trying to develop better program facilities for the boys not punish the adults. I would hope you do council service projects for the same reason. The council has to look big picture and long range, as unit leaders we look at more immediate needs. You have a new Boy Scout camp to enjoy, you have not been deprieved of anything other than a building you helped repair. That does not give you user rights, just bragging rights, and the warm feeling that you helped the program to grow and improve. Should't that be enough? Bob

According the Insignia Guide, unless you are wearing a neck tie, the top button of the uniform is to remain unbuttoned. Bob(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Ed, I'm curious how your screening for merit badge counselors work. Let's say a parent who works for an insurance company offers to be a merit badge counselor for music and public speaking, what would you have them do on a campout or at a troop meeting so that you can approve them? Their profession has no connection? Bob

Weekender, That is correct. Bob

I don't see that the amount is relevant. Does the troop have a documented, equally enforced, rule or not. Who makes the decision on money matters in the troop? Bob

Again, it is probably just a program recommendation they are following. Why is it so important that a Boy Scout Troop get to use Cub Scout program facilities? Bob

Aside from safety regulations, I don't know of any "policies" that national has within a council's camp. Policies, as they effect units fall in 3 main categories; safety, uniform, and advancement. Remember that the council owns and operates local council camps not national. Also I don't worry about administration actions between national and council. I only worry about program elements that affect delivery of scouting. I can't think of a single camp, be it a BSA or non-scouting camp, that would have an effect on my ability to deliver a quality program if it were to close or if I were denied some or total use of it. Bob

According to the Insignia Guide adults can wear neckerchiefs, Bolos, Woodbadge Beads or no neck wear. The green neck tie is no longer a current uniform piece with the dress uniform, and is no longer for sale. The insignia guide also has the regulations for correct uniforming when wearing a neckerchief. You have 2 collar options. 1) You can roll the collar into the shirt and wear the neckerchief on top, or 2) you can wear the collar on the outside on top of the neckerchief. The neckerchief should not be worn on the top of an exposed collar. The top button of the uniform shirt should always be unbuttoned. The Wood Badge neckerchief and woggle, have their own guidelines for appropriate wear and can be found in the course syllabus and the participant manual. bob

I would contact the Committee Chairperson and ask to come over and pick up a copy of the troop by-laws. then, while there I would explain the situation and ask what the purpose of having a scout account was. Then ask how him transfering changes that purpose. I think you just got a knee jerk reaction from the SM. Bob(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Excellent advice Mike.

Scoutparent, Just because there is no national policy doesn't mean there isn't something that can be done. What exactly is the situation you've encountered? Bob(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Hi Scoutparent, No, not really. There is a remote connection between unit funds and the BSA but it is really remote and only comes into play if the unit folds or if there illegalities in the handling of the money. For all practical applications the stewardship of the funds are in the hands of the Troop Committee and the chartered organization. many units set up scout accounts as way to help make scouts more conscious of money handling, as a motivation and reward for fundraising, and as a way to help minimize the cost of scouting. Units can administrate these funds however they want. and there is a wide variety of methods used. The best way is, no matter what you decide make sure it is publicized to the families frequently, that everyone knows the benefits and penalties, and they know how much they have. I like what my son's troop does. You can use the money for scout activities, uniforms or personal camping equipment. If you quit scouting the money is forfeited to the troop. If you transfer to another troop that has scout accounts the money goes to your new account. You need to ask your unit what all the financial policies they follow are. I hope this helps, Bob(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Bear, It is supposed to be territorial. The Charter Organization owns the troop. The rep has to be a member of the organization. The more adults and families of that organization the better. Others are usually welcome but the organization does not have to extend membership beyond its own families. Sounds top me like you've met the unmovable object. I would reflect on the serenity prayer and make a decision from there. Bob

Well the rumor mill grinds with incredible enthusiasm. "I am, and will forever be, amazed, that the news regarding the church, and its public call for exclusion of gays," jmcquillan in a previous post included a quote from a priest. ''I don't expect much from this meeting,'' said the Rev. Donald B. Cozzens, a former seminary rector and author of ''The Changing Face of the Priesthood. ''My hunch is that they will be told to face `the moral laxity in the priesthood and in our seminaries' and to exclude gays from admission,'' This one priest shared a personal guess, a hunch. Now jmcquillan has elevated this one priest, not a Bishop, not a Cardinal, certainly not the Pope but, someone who was not at the papal conference, and who made the comment before the conference even took place to be a spokesperson for the entire Catholic Church. Jmcquillan writes "I am, and will forever be, amazed, that the news regarding the church, and its public call for exclusion of gays," What news? When did the Church make such a statement? This was an irresponsible fabrication. As a Catholic I resent it, as a moral individual I find it repugnant. I can only imagine jmcquillanss outrage if the scout law required truthful as one of its moral values. What does this topic have to with delivering a scouting program to our community? How does useless debate over gays in scouting or any church get you to know and use the scouting methods? You dont hear the officers of scouting criticizing United Way, or gays, or Catholics, or Mormons or any other sector of our society. But we have self-proclaimed scouters who not only publicly attack groups they dont like, they dont even like the group they volunteered to join. Loyal, Friendly, Courteous, Kind. Shame on anyone for claiming to have the moral authority to judge these characteristics in scouts, when they lack those same characteristics in themselves.

Hi Weekender, I almost envy you. i know it seems like you are up to your neck in alligators but you are in a rather enviable position. You can make a difference. You want to do it right, you have a few key members who are willing to help, and you believe in training in the scouting methods. You could be doing a lot worse. Just understand that things won't change overnight. Don't let that change your goal, but don't let it frustrate you either. My recommendation is make a plan; * get the adults trained * get the junior Leaders trained * plan a full scouting program for the scouts * Share leadership with others * Get the Adults trained- I would turn this over to an Asst. Scoutmaster as a job for them to focus on. Ask Your District Advancement Coordinator for a New Leader Essentials Syllabus and CD. Have your ASM learn the 90 to 120 minute program and give it to whoeverever he can whenever he can. Then have the ASM contact the Training team and arrange for a presentation of The Troop Commiittee Challenge. It is a three-hour course to build and aim a troop committee in the right direction. If the District won't come do it get the syllabus, game pieces< video and CD and do it yourself. Insist that a SM/ASM Leader Specific Training be hald every quarter and get you and your assistants to it. I know you have your beads but a refresher never hurt and it sets a good example for your assistants. * Get your junior leaders trained. As the SM that is your primary job. Get your hands on the new patrol Leaders Handbook. Read it. Then review the Junior leader Training Workshop syllabus and video. I would follow the Patrol Leaders Handbook as a syllabus, using the leadership games from the Workshop. There is not much of the video that is meaningful to today's scouts. A new version is being developed but it will be a year or more before it is ready. * Plan a good scouting program. Units with good programs recruit, retain and advance scouts better than other units. Units with a plan get more parental support. (people stand around and watch train wrecks, they don't climb on board.) It's not that parents don't want to help their children, they just don't want to waste time not accomplishing anything. Don't worry tat they don't help unless they are asked, that's human nature. The thing to do is ask, BUT, don't ask for them to "help" ask for them to do a specific task toward a specific goal. * Share Leadership with others. As you probably remember from Wood Badge the Scoutmaster is not the focal point of scouting. i am troubled by so many posters concernered more about their "authority" being preserved and their control over the troop. The scoutmasters job is to train junior leaders, to understand the needs and characteristics of each individual scout, and to help guide a program that uses the methods of scouting to achieve the aims of scouting. Let the Committee Chair run the committee, let the boys lead the boys, let ASM have specific reponsibilities and give them room to do them. Your are a key piece to the puzzle, but your not the only piece and you are not the purpose for having the puzzle. Best of Luck, Bob White

"Policy" is probably not the correct term. There is a program and service emphasis that has been very successful in many councils; to have fewer camps and better defined, better developed, program areas designed to suit a specific program. When my parents were den leaders, back in the 60s, our basement was decorated in scouting stuff. Half the room had cub scout stuff, half had boy scout stuff. My mothers den met on the cub side and when my dad's Webelos den met they were on the Boy Scout side. My parents understood the need for seperate and unique program areas. If the whole thing was Cub Scouts, the Webelos would be bored. If the whole thing was Boy Scouts, the cubs would have nothing to look forward to. There is a similar camp fascilities philosophy, to create separate and unique program areas. The camping fascilities for Cubs are often far less spartan than Boy Scout camping areas. The reason is the same as my parents basement. The Boy Scouts are beyond the need for such comforts and need to be more adventurous in there outdoor activities in order to make use of the skills they are learning. Cubs are now encouraged to camp often, but in a "family style" more sheltered environment that is more in keeping with their skill level and to keep the adventure of Boy Scouting unique and separated from their program. It has been a very successful program approach and is being adopted by more and more councils all the time. I know of no "policy" (strict governing rule)in place to force a council to do choose this path. Hope this helps, Bob White

Mike raises some excellent points. I'll add one other thought. Just because the other new scouts did it once doesn't mean they don't need to do it again. This time through let them help the instructors teach. They will not only feel good about there new abilities but it gives them opportunity to practive and improve. One other thought, if 60% absenteeism is common you probably need to look at how you are doing things. Is it hands on, is it fun, is it in short blocks of time that fits the attention span of that age group, do they have an opportunity to use the skill? There are always choices in a boys life, often the deciding factor is "what do I enjoy the most". That level of absenteeism sends up some red flags to me. Bob White