Bob White

Pack212Scouter If the Council holds a Council activity and invites all the Packs, but only one Pack shows up, it is still a Council activity. But the Council cannot put on an event for just one pack. That would be a pack activity and the the G2SS says that you cannot have an archery activity at a Pack event.

"I guess this begs the question that if the program is doing now what was considered boy scouting 40 years ago, can it still be boy scouting now?" Not a really clear question Barry. Do yu mean if the BSA was doing today what it did 40 years ago would it still be Boy Scouting? If that is your question then I gusess you would have to say that A) Most of todays program IS what Scouting was 40 years ago. and B) Whatever the BSA program is today is what the progran is today...isn't it? Whether it was made of elements from 40 years ago or 40 days ago, today's scouting is what today's Scouting Program says it is. Beavah, I read what you wrote and no you did not mention the fact that one of the purposes of the Troop Guide as a part of the Ne Scout Patrol becase of the inexperience of the new scouts to know how to avoid and deal with conflicts. jblake There is nothing in the current BSA training that tells a scoutmaster to step in and interrupt a patrol leader who is tryiing to work things out at the patrol level. Your post suggestsw that that is what the program suggests and they you have a better way. It would appear that your methods are very close to thoise of the BSA yo just don't know that because you would rather see your way as right and the BSA as wrong.

There are no new problems in Scouting. The problems that arise in units and councils are exactly the same as ones that have been faced in other using or with different people at other times. many othe the cures have been addressed by the BSa as well adn included in training programs or manuals or topic specific brochures. In the past as in today, the majority of problems come from when people stray from the program, not from when they follow it.

Finding some things on the national web site is difficult. Not as difficult as the previous version but still difficult. Do you suppoe that is becasue there is not much information avaible to your or because there is so much available to you? This is a good reson to use the topic specifc manuals first. JM Walston Whether you wore the The Quartermaster Award or the knot representing it would depend on the uniform you were wearing. Since Quartermaster is a Sea Scout Rank, a youth in a Sea Scout Uniform would wear the rank patch. A youth in a Venturing uniform would the knot. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

"A "rotated in" PL of a New Scout Patrol ain't likely to be able to handle discipline matters, and expectin' him to is really unfair to the lad. Especially since most of da discipline issues at that level involve conflicts over chores assigned by the PL's duty roster." Which is why the BSA program is designed with a Troop Guide who works with the New Scout Patrol and trains the scouts on things like why and how duty rosters are used, so that conflicts can be minimalized and should there be friction in that patrol the Troop Guide is there to help them through it. An element of the BSA program you failed to mention in your hypothetical situation. I see very little in what jblake is proposing that conflicts with the BSA program as far as the patrol leader being the first level (or first person on the team if you prefer) to be in contact with the situation and try to resolve it using the tools he has at that time and in that office. This would not include punishing scouts, that is not the role or the purose of the PL, nor will it help the growth or the funtion of the patrol as a team. You can argue that jblake or others are successful at what they do, the question is, if they are not following the scouting program, then is what they do really Boy Scouting, or are they simply using the name and the uniform for their own program. If you are not using the Scouting program, then how can you be successful at delivering a Scouting program?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I do not think that is a viable alternative John. That would still be a pack event, and the BSA restriction says specifically that archery cannot be done at a packe event. Nor does it say that the activity must be done on the council's range, it states it must be done DURING the specific events that they list.

I would start by contacting the District Advancement Chair. Let them know the situation and that the scout is searching for the original. Ask if he would sign the back up copy just in case the original is not found. Then get his or her signature as soon as possible. It;s unfortunate the original is lost but congratulations to the young man for completeing his Eagle requirements to this point.

And yet another book answer.. Archery is a restricted activity. Here is what Chapeter 8 of the Guide to Safe Scouting says regarding Cub Scouts and archery "Archery and BB gun shooting are restricted to day camps, Cub Scout/Webelos Scout resident camps, council-managed family camping programs, or to council activities where there are properly trained supervisors and all standards for BSA shooting sports are enforced. Archery and BB gun shooting are not to be done at the pack level. BW

I don't think that is the problem OGE. It seems to me that many posters who ask questions are looking for the answer they want to hear and that is not always the answer that follows the BSA program. The person who tells them what they want becomes the authority on scouting rather than the BSA program being the authority on Scouting.

I agree Neil, The patrol leaders focuses on creating and maaintaining a good team structure so that conflicts are minimal. The SPL focusews mor on conflict resolution. The adults are proght in for counceling and if needed seding the youth home to be dealt with by his parehts or guardians. It is a tiered respoinse doe that the scout's involvement can grow as the scout develops in skill and experience.

There was a time where Philmont, Like Wood Badge, had a core group of presenters that seemed to be frquently called upon to do the same courses every time. That was changed a few years ago, and now there is a noticable effort to always be bringing in new faces, new talent and shifting presenters so that no one "owns" a course topic. Food has improved dramatically. I was also there 8 years ago and the food was the weakest element. This year the menu was varied and well prepared I thought. As afr as how much money is spent there a lot of ohilmont is self sustaining either from the revenuing generation of the Trading Post, the activities, their Foundation, or from the money raised By the Philmont Association, a huge group of former staffers and faculty who make personal donatioons to help maintain and improve the facilities.

A troop in our District bought this and then built a fire lay around it. It Looked incredible! http://www.hauntedfog.com/Pop%20Ups/Chauvet/chauvet_bob_fake_flame_unit.htm

Sorry for taking so long to respond, I've been Sea Scouting all day. My apologies to Neil up. I went back and reread his post and realized that I misunderstood him. My initial impression was that he felt the handbooks were asking the scouts to be involved in disciplining youth. I see know that I was hasty in replying. Again I apologize.

I'll bet that people who want to work it out will post asking how to work it ou, and poeple who just want to know the process will post asking about the process. In much the same way that people who want to learn the program will post asking to learn more about the program. And people who want to share the program will post using the resourcese of the progrom.

Your teacher was very wise. I hope all hope all of his or her students appreciate that one starts with reading what is known first!

Probably none. The Guide to Safe Scouting has been on line for quite some time and yet many posters here have not kown or understood what it says. Whether on-line or in a book it still has to be read, and many posters here take a dim view of people who read.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Neil up, if you read the references in the Patrol Leaders Handbook and the SPL Handbook you would see that the methods recommended to them are nothing like you suggest.

Yes. Unless the unit has notified the council office and had the individual removed from the unit roster. As long as the individual remains on the roster they would be registered but inactive. Which is why a formal letter of resignation is not required.

Well for one we have had an employee of the Supply division post here about it. Secondly if you read the brochure on the new uniform that was posted on this form it says "Transitional pieces to mix and match with your current uniform." My third source is information we recived at PTC from a nationals director wearing the new uniform. Finally from the Uniform regulations of the BSA whish as you agree say that once an official uniform piece always an official uniform piece. I do not believe that the new uniform was a creation of the Supply Division as you have stated. the uniform was designed and developed from a volunteer committee that has been working on the uniform for about 4 years. Supply Division is responsible for marketing and distribution, not the design. Keep in mind the uniform has yet to be released. There will be a new Insignia guide coming out soon, as well as a new Scout handbook that includes the new uniform. You can expect articles in Boy'S life and Scouting Magazines, probably the next issue. There is already info on ScoutStuff at http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/info.aspx?page=bsauniformmain Patience is a virtue

Let's say you are getting closer. BALOO has NOTHING to do with Webelos Den camping. BALOO is for Pack family camping ONLY. Webelos Leader Outdoor Training is recommended for Webelos Den camping but not required. However, the local council can require it if they choose. In such a case they have a responsibility to offer the course frequently so that all Webelos leaders have the opportunity to attend. I always had our Webelos leaders attend Webelos leader training and OWL during the second half of their Bear program year, so that when they began their Webelos leader tenure they would be ready to take the Den camping immediately.

Oh my! Why do I block this persons posts? Here is a good example (Thank you I guess to the posters that wrote me about his last post). I am told a poster wrote "Like an Life Scout working on his Eagle project isn't allowed to identify the project as an Eagle projects when approaching the organization he wishes to do the project for." This is indeed how urban legends begin. Has anyone ever heard this before about Eagle Projects? Anyone? Me either. This is another gross misrepresentation by this poster of things that I and others have posted, and this is why I block him. What has been said on this forum in the past is that a candidate cannot represent himself as a Scout when seeking donations of money or supplies for a project. If you think about the project procedures you can see how ridiculous his example is. Because what is the first signature the candidate needs to get in the project workbook? Right, he needs the signature of a represenative of the organization for whom he is doing the project. So there is nothing in the BSA that says the organization can't be told that the candidate is using the work for his Scouting advancement. He just can't use the name and images of the BSA to seek donations for an outside organization. It's leaders who share the kind of misinformation that the previous poster does that muddies the training waters of the BSA. And while I appreciate the heads up, please do not feel the need to tell me when this poster misrepresents my posts, if he didn't always do it then he wouldn't be blocked. It is also why it is important whenever possible to share the specific BSA resource that spells out the correct information. There are posters who take what they see as the truth based only on what they perceive to be experienced scouters. But you need to remember that with some scouters their experience was not good experience. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

That would be an incorrect assumption. Webelos Camping can be done with a troop or as a den. In the case of Den camping the BSA says the activity should be lead by someone who has completed Webelos Leader Specific Training and the Webols Leader Outdoor Training. BALOO is not required for Webelos Den Camping. http://www.scouting.org/Cubscouts/Training/weboutdoor.aspx

Why is using and training a problem. You said you have used an axe extensively. Do you not know how to use it correctly? Do you not know how to teach it. If you do, then why would using and training be a problem?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

LisaBob, I will agree with you that there is no BSA literature that could possible have in it the explanation of how to solve a unit /CO relationship because there is an unlimited variety of what could be the root of the problem. Would you agree with that? And since ther is no BSA literature that would address that then obviosly it has never been refere to as existing in any forum thread. Would you agree? And since no such reference could possible exist, and since no such resource has ever been refered to ...then why did you use uit as an example to support your premise??? You wrote " well it is a lot like what the BSA resources tell us about the UC/unit relationship - looks great on paper, often does not happen that way in reality." Just what paper would that have been??? Beavah, I can always count on you. "While we know that there's no mention in BSA literature anywhere about cuttin' corners off of Totin' Chips or Fireman Chits, we all know that's a technique many troops use to give lads who need it an improvised reminder/warning." If the BSA thought that giving someone FOUR chances to misuse an ax or knife was a GOOD idea, don't you think that they would have incorportated that into the program by know. I got my Totin Chip in 1965 and at 11 years old I thought that was a stupid way to control safety with a potentially lethal tool. It is frightening to thing that such a ridiculous procedure has lasted this long. It shows just how many leaders have relied on word of mouth folk lore to learn scouting, rather than actually learning the program of the BSA and thinking about how those lessons are applied in the field. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Scoutldr Here is were a little training an little common sense make the difference. The Council can make a rule that you cannot have a ________(fill in the blank, on council property or at a council event. But They have no authority to say you cannot have a ________ anywhere else unless it is a national policy of the BSA. I don't care if we are talking about fixed blade knives, I-Pods, or powertools. The Council has no authority to tell you what you can or cannot use off of their property or outside of their events, unless it is in support of a national policy. The Council cannot dictate to you that you cannot have a fixed blade knife at a troop meeting or at a unit activity since there is no BSA policy against fixed blade knives. (This message has been edited by Bob White)