Bob White

scoutmom, it's crunch time. you need to make a personal decision to follow the BSA policies or not. You did the right thing. You told the parents no alcohol, you asked for the cubmasters support and didn't get it. The CM was wrong to do that. You asked what we would do in that instance. I would report the CM and the adults who had the beer to the charter organization head and the COR (along with an expaination of the BSA policy), and to the Council Executive. Then let them do the right thing. Sounds like you adapted well to some unfortunate circumstances. Bob White

Rooster was kind enough to show the exact phrase from the GTSS. "Adult leaders of Scouting units are responsible for monitoring the behavior of youth members and interceding when necessary. Parents of youth member who misbehave should be informed and asked for assistance in dealing with it. To intercede is to step and cease the action. It does not include punishing. Bold lettering in the GTSS is unalterable policy, Parents of youth member who misbehave should be informed and asked for assistance in dealing with it. Thanks Rooster, Bob

Why not let any scout who is willing to learn the skills needed to be in the flag corps participate? Isn't the behavior expected in the "elite" corps the same behavior expected of any scout? If a scout does not behave in accordance with the Oath and Law or the policies of the BSA then the Safe Guide to Scouting says that he and his parents meet with the troop committee. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Maybe for the sake of this discussion we could agree that discipline is a variety of internal and extrenal controls that define and maintain acceptable behavior. Punishment is action taken after a rule or discipline is violated in order to enforce the discipline. Would this be generally acceptable? If this is agreeable then I find nothing in any leadership training that empowers leaders to punish scouts accept for the unit committee in the presence of the scout's parents and the chartering organizations authority to revoke membership. Keeping in mind that discipline comes before the transgression, program leaders have the responsibility to teach discipline but do not have authority to punish. Does anyone find something different in the program resources? Bob White

Quixote, I was not singling out any individual when I wrote "Let's stop trying to infuse the program with our personal take on what life is or isn't, and stick to presenting the "scouting " program" it was a general recommendation to us all. As far as Rooster7's opinion of me I could not care less. His writings are largely on how much he disagrees with the BSA program and on what his opinion is of what it should be. In between those he comments on what he does in spite of what the program teaches, because he likes his way better. As far as my interprtations of policies... In nearly every instance I give the scout resource where the information is provided. If Rooster wants to twist this into MY interpretation that is his right. We see scouting in a totally different way. I will continue to answer the questions posed on this post using the resources of the BSA. Rooster can continue to write what he wants the program to be. The other readers will need investigate and choose what they believe is the programs purpose, just as families need to investigate local units to determine which one will do the most for their boys. There will always be good leaders and bad leaders in scouting we have the choice to accept or refuse whichever we wish. I make no apologies for my support of the official scouting program. It puts positive youth development first and the authority and egos of leaders last. If my posts seem pious and bombastic that is not the intention, they are confident, because I have confidence in the BSA program. Bob White

Discipline in scouting is handled through training, counseling and use of the Oath and Law. Punishment is handled by the parents of the scout and the troop committee. (see the Guide to Safe Scouting) Bob White

Others have written, "Scouting should be a safe haven, but NOT a glass bubble. This protection, whether inspired by love or ignorance, would hinder their ability to grow and be successful in life. This kind of protection today will only cause them greater trials tomorrow." "We can't protect the boys from life (that's what happens between scouting events), but we can prepare them a little for it." "Life is full of unpleasantness, we owe it to the boys to teach them how to deal with it early - could save a lot of heartache down the road." ....and a few other similar thoughts. The "safe haven" of scouting is indeed intended to be a glass bubble. Name calling, bullying, harrasment, abuses which are common place in American schools and homes are forbidden in scouting. It is the leaders' responsibility to make sure they do not take place in the program. There are 3 million reported cases of child abuse each year in America. 1/2 million of those are child sexual abuse. That's life in our country, and YES we can protect our scouts from that. Our program trains them not to be victims not how to be accustomed to being made a victim. If you want to desensitize scouts about the uncomfortable parts of life by giving them doses of that reality then you are in the wrong program. Leadership is about communicating, knowing and understanding the group, planning, setting the example, sharing leadership, evaluating, conflict resoulution NOT about how to sing for you lost pocket knife. As it was mentioned before the Guide to Safe Scouting is very clear on what actions are forbidden and the intent that makes such "stunts" forbidden. If you violate that policy you have earned your removal from the program. The goal of the BSA is character, citizenship and mental, physical and emotional fitness. We have hundreds of resources that give specific activities we can do with scouts to reach this goal. Can you find one of those resources that has any mention of allowing singing to reclaim personal property? NO? Then it doesn't belong in the troop's program. Let's stop trying to infuse the program with our personal take on what life is or isn't, and stick to presenting the "scouting " program as determined by the BSA and the handbooks you should be reading. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

As far as what to do with a scout who is always losing things, what would I do? First of all I wouldn't loan him anything that was mine. Secondly, if he is losing his stuff that's his problem. If he is losing patrol gear that's his patrol leaders problem, I would train the patrol leader to help the scout. If he is losing troop gear that is the QM's problem I would train the QM to control the equipment better. Next... As far as the question, "Is it "unscoutlike" to publically bring attention to any unacceptable behavior?" In my other life I do management and leadership training, a good rule of thumb as a leader in business or scouts is "Praise in public, Criticize in private". Recent Wood Badge participants should recognize that. Yes, I think to criticize a scout in front of others is "unscoutlike". I think that to teach right from wrong about an action (not about a specific person) is called a Scoutmaster's Minute. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

It is less a matter of old fashioned and more a matter of correct of incorrect. Advancement policies and procedures are set by national and may not be unaltered by a unit. If 15 years ago your town changed the speed limit on a road from 40 mph to 30 mph and you continued to drive for because you are "old fashioned. Does that make you ant less guilty of breaking the law? What rule do you want your scouts to follow, The rules your troop has today or the rules they used 2 decades ago? Be careful of the example you set? Bob White

I'm 100% with OGE on this one. Bob White

Basic rules of disposing of waste are found in the BSA Leave No Trace training and brochure. It includes; >Pack it in, pack it out. Inspect your campsite and rest areas for trash or spilled foods. Pack out all trash, leftover food, and litter. >Deposit solid human waste in catholes dug 6 to 8 inches deep at least 200 feet from water, camp, and trails. Cover and disguise the cathole when finished. >Pack out toilet paper and hygiene products. >To wash yourself or your dishes, carry water 200 feet away from streams or lakes and use small amounts of biodegradable soap. Scatter strained dishwater. Bob White

slontwovvy, It has been several years since youth were allowed to do Board of Reviews. All BORs are to be done by 3 to 5 troop committee members except for the Eagle Board. This has been the advancement policy for a long time now. In addition, BORs may not re-test on skills. The time to make sure the scouts know the skill is before the book is signed, not after. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Scouter, You are wrong about the bully and having only one way to deal with it. Your unit simply picked the incorrect way. Bullying is a violation of the BSA Youth Protection policies. There are specific steps that must be taken within the unit when bullying takes place. By your description, your unit did not follow those steps. They are outlined in the Guide to Safe Scouting. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Perhaps working with cub scouts is not the best use of this persons skills. Maybe he took the position out of peer pressure or threat of the den folding (a tactic many packs use). I agree that it takes the Charter Rep to remove his membership but maybe that is not needed. What if you just reassigned him to a task more fitting with his skills and interest so that he could be of beneifit to the pack. Removal of ones membership should only occur if a severe policy violation has taken place, such as youth protection, or if they have broken a law, for instance stole money from the pack. Why not look for a solution that improves the program to the boys and maintains the adult's membership. Bob White

The District may have a website with Councils approval. Remember the district is a geographical subdivison of the council. The council is the legal entity. Your Council has Web guidelines from national that must be followed. Bob White

Yaworski, First Class/ First Year has been a part of scouting program since sometime in the 80s (maybe even earlier). As far as how many scouts earn the Eagle award at age 14, what does it matter as long as they meet the requirements? The BSA has skill requirements, leadership requirement, service requirements and character requirements on the trail to Eagle. Age is not a determining factor. Age does not guarantee maturity, character or ability. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

We follow a process almost identical to the one described by jmcquillan. Bob White

Hi Sheila, Probably the best book to use is one we have mentioned several times on this board, The Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual. It will explain who sits on the boards and what the boards should do. Your right about stemming the power trips but there is another vital reason for the rule of one person one job. there were situations in the past where a person was the Charter Rep and the Committee Chair and the unit leader. This allowed them to approve themselves of having the proper character to work with youth. No background checks were done, no one could question there membership or leadership, and boys were put at risk. So the one persomn one job rule keeps the checks and balances in place for a safer program. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Hi OGE, Since you askedd.... according to the Guide to Safe Scouting "A unit leader may not serve simultaneously in any other position within the same unit." This is in bold print which means it is a policy not a guideline. There is one exception allowed. The Charter Organization Representative can also be a chartered as a committee member (not recommended but allowed). OGE raises a good point. Just because he can't register in two positions does not mean he cannot go on campouts and help at troop meetings. I'd be hesitant having him serve on the Board of Reviews if he is going to be the CC and be active with the boys as an ASM. There is a purpose for not allowing SM and ASM to sit on Boards. It's to allow the scout a hearing before an impartial jury. Acting as an ASM may prejudice the individual toward the scout. Better to play it safe and give the advantage to the boy and not have the CC sit on Boards if he is active in an ASMs role as well. Bob White

Salra, That's a dangerous question. It implies that leaders should use age as a determination for advancement. Since no such requirement exists in the advancement requirements of the Boy Scout Handbook it would be improper for anyone to impose such age restraints. To do so would be a violation of BSA advancement policies. It would be similar to asking how tall should a scout be or what should they weigh? Perhaps a better question would be, how can we help make sure that scouts act according the the Scout Oath and Scout Law as they advance toward Eagle? Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

ScoutParent, I hope you understand from my original response to your question of me, and by my other posts in this string, that I feel the committee has made a bad decision. I still feel that a timely face to face discussion with the committee is, or at least was, your best solution. I do not know why the committee made this decision. I agree that if their goal is to do what's in the best interest of boys this is an odd way to show it. But there are scouters who I see as taking an extremist approach and immediately wanting to sue. I disagree with their approach as strongly as I disagree with the committee's.

cjmiam, The law says the money belongs to the chartering organization. This is an unfortunate situation and definitely poor management on the committee's part, but to compare it to the sexual abuse of children borders on the irresponsible. Bob White

CubsRgr8, Review pages 9-1 and 23-3 of the new Cub Scout Leader Book with your COR. Also order the brochure The Chartered Organization Representative #3317 from your council office (I believe that is the current cat.#) it costs under $1.

An Eagle Award can be rescinded but only by the national office. I would recommend telling the SM you have a serious concern and would like to address it with the troop committee at the next committee meeting. The things you describe are in violation of the BSA Youth Protection policies and the committee needs to be made aware of them. They have a responsibility to deal seriously with the actions you describe. Bob White

First a comment on your problem and then a question. Simply read to them the advancement reqirement. it does not say hold an office. It says "actively serve" let them know that at the end of their term they will need to show evidence of hving actively served, and that unless they show more evidence then they have to this point they will not be able to advance. Now the question. Why have an elected Patrol leader in each patrol if you are assigniong a guide as well? The SPL is responsible for coaching thejob of coaching the PLs. Consider returning the correct patrol method in order to give the scouts a more meaningful experience. Troop Guides are for the New Scout Patrols because the leadership is rotated monthly so that each scout attends a PLC and gains an understanding of how patrol representation guides the troop. The Troop Guide adds continuity to the patrol's first year and helps guide new scouts through their introduction to scouting. Bob White