Bob White

Ozemu, An excellent question. It varies depending on the State you live in. In Illinois, scout leaders are legally required to report all suspicion of child abuse to the appropriate government agency. In Illinois that is the Department of Children and Familiy Services (DCFS) at 1-800-252-2873. In all 50 states and in our overseas councils of the BSA, leaders are required to report all suspicions of child abuse to the Council Executive or their specified agent. Not reporting places thenm in violation of the Youth Protection Policy. A leader could not only have their membership revoked but could face criminal and civil charges for not reporting. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Salra, I am very sorry that your son was exposed to that behavior, especially through scouting. I hope you will join another troop in your community. Take time to visit the unit, stand back , watch and listen to how the boys treat each other, to how they treat their parents and leaders, and to how the leqaders treat the boys. What you and your family experienced is not typical of scout units. I hope you will give your community a chance to redeem themselves with your son. Even though you are leaving, please contact your local Council Executive. Give them details of what happened and who was involved. There were a number of BSA Youth protection policies violated in that unit and the Council executive will take your call very seriously. I'm hopeful it will keep another scout from experiencing what your son endured. Bob White

Adult Youth Protection Training and the age appropriate youth protect training provided by the BSA are important materials for all adult and youth members of the BSA. One of the things you will learn is that in many states the inappropriate language refered to in this thread and the original one is considered possible sexual abuse if the youth originator is 3 years of age or older than the other youth involved. The BSA requires that such a matter be taken very seriously. At the very least the Council executive should have been informed of the incident. By the way, it is not to late to do that, and I highly recommend you do that. One other thing, it's great to have parents who have an open door policy with their children, and it is great for scouts to know that they can come to their scout leaders to report abuse. But beware of an open door policy inviting scouts to discuss "anything" with their leaders. Leaders are not to dicuss sexual matters with scouts other than reports of abuse. Sex education in scouting begins and ends with the Youth Protection programs and even those have limited or NO discussion depending on the age of the scout. The BSA requires that any leader approached by a scout with a question of a sexual nature be directed to a parent, guardian or religious leader. Sex education is not a program element of the BSA. KL Wisconsin, The tape program for scouts age 11 to 14 is "A Time to Tell", the tape for Cubs age 7 to 10 is "It Could Happen to You" and for scouts 15 to 20 "Youth Protection, Personal Safety Awareness". Bob White

My guess is they have bought the wrong belt. Webelos were the same blue web belt as other cub scouts but with a webelos belt buckle purchased separately. Since it is the same belt the sports awards should fit on it. If they have purchased the green boy scout belt, the awards will probably not fit as the bely is a hair wider. The green web belt is only for Boy Scouts and adult leaders to wear. Webelos wear the blue web belt even if they are wearing the tan iniform shirt. Bob White

"There are still people who refuse to accept that 'death camps' existed during WWII, or that man actually landed on the moon." I'm sorry. I thought we were talking about Scouting. No I think we were talking about how to get everyone to come to a common understanding. My point was that it was human nature for some people to only believe what they want regardless of the evidence presented. That is a stumbling block that no measure of information access can overcome. Bob

Kudos Korea Scouter, A mature, responsible and scoutlike attitude. Given the choice of possibly humiliating the scout or treating the scout with respect, you chose respect. Bob

A few deatils on the case in question. 1 It was a very small amount but it was definitely marijuana. 2 It was on a council contigency trip so it was not a scout in the troop I served at home. I had no authority to suspend him from his unit for 60 days. (Had it been a scout in the troop I served he would have had his membership revoked.) 3 The council was called first. They asked for my recommendation, talked with legal counsel, and then the parents were called per my recommendation. 4 Had the scout actually used it on the trip or sold it to another scout (we knew for a fact that had not happened), my recommendation would have been to turn him over to the local police. My point in bringing this topic up was that our role as leaders roll was to intercede, to end any danger to the scout or other scouts and end the violation. We did not punish the scout, We left that to the council and the parents. We did not try to embarrass the scout, we acted quickly, quietly and confidentially (even the few other scouts who knew what was happening were instructed to only discuss it with the adult leaders). If we can follow the guidelines of Youth Protection in a situation like this, then any leader can certainly handle a scout who lost a personal article with more maturity than making him sing a song to get it back.

Ed, I disagree, I did not threaten the scout with anything, I spoke to the parents and asked them which action they wanted to take. His punishment was not in being separated that was purely to protect the other scouts. He was not lectured, made to clean a latrine, or emabarrassed in front of the others. In fact only a few other scouts knew what was happening and they were instructed not to discuss the event with anyone other than the adults. It was a contigency trip so this scout was not in the home troop that I served, I had no power to suspend him from his troop's activities. My responsibility was to the safety of the other scouts and the continuation of the trip. The parents chose the option to come get the scout. I would have been fine with either option. Bob White

ScoutParent, The officials are found in the scouting professional, commissioners and varios council and district volunteers. just like there are different refs to watch certain parts of the game there are different scouters who are responsibile for different parts of scouting. Remember though the refs only look at how the game is played, the league can look at how the team is operated by only has limited power, the owner still controls the business end of team operation. Training On Line- One hurdle in putting all training on line is recouping some of the cost of development, and that a major part of training is the hands on experience and networking with other volunteers. In addition there are copyright restrictions that would be violated. I'll add one more problem, how do we varify that the person actually viwed the training? Bob White

I think the NFL is the closest example of how scouting works. The teams have independent owners that all agree to follow the same rules. The rules are set by a committee representative of the owners. The team hires coaches who don't do the actual playing. Even though every team has the same rules to follow and the same basic plays and players, each has their own game plan and variety of plays. Teams can be as creative in their plays as they desire as long as it stays within the rules and boundaries of the game. The League and the their officials are not there to interfere with the game but to identify and clarify rules and infractions. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

ScoutParent, I am disappointed that you would misquote me. In response to your intitial post."When a scout transfers what happens to the individual scout account money? Does the BSA have regulations regarding this?" I answered "No, not really. There is a remote connection between unit funds and the BSA but it is really remote and only comes into play if the unit folds or if there illegalities in the handling of the money. For all practical applications the stewardship of the funds are in the hands of the Troop Committee and the chartered organization." It wasn't until you mentioned that you went to the district finance committee that I said they had no authority and that the control rested soley with the troop itself. And only after you recieved, what I consider poor advice, to sue that I pointed out the charter organization owns the unit and it's assets. You did not give a fair or accurate representation of our discourse. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

ScoutParent, I never gave my interpretation of quote you just gave. You asked me "When a scout transfers what happens to the individual scout account money? Does the BSA have regulations regarding this?" and I said "no they didn't". As you point out it says that the unit committee is the custodian of all funds. It says nothing about how to handle scout accounts. I am unconcerned with would "might be in the future" as should you be. What counts is what the program and its rules are today. How can anyone possibly run a nationwide program if individuals try to do what they think will be the program in the future. There is only one scouting program, and it is today's program and it is determined by the BSA not by personal choice. I agree that leaders can make their own choice as to which information to accept, but they need to hear the BSA side not just the "here is what I do" side that is so often represented here. I do not pretend to be a "spokesperson" for the BSA but I and a few other posters know what the BSA program is, and what it isn't. There are over 200 councils most representing hundreds of units. There are thousands of "traditions" floating around out there. New ones begin all the time. Some are harmless. Some were allowed in their day but are not allowed today. It would be a monumental task to gather them all, and for what purpose. All you need to know is in the handbooks and in the training. Why learn a bunch of outdated practices? If you aren't doing what the Boy Scout Handbook tells the boy he be doing in scouting then you are not doing a scouting program. If you don't use the methods of scouting, you are just doing stuff in a scout uniform your are not scouting. We owe it to the scouts to deliver the promise made them in their handbook. That promise is not one of punishments, adult rule, do what I say, go where I say go, don't advance if I don't think you are old enough, I'll choose the leaders because I know best, don't wear the uniform because I don't like the pants, your parent can't be a MB counselor because I said so, everybody works on the same merit badges at the same time, scouting that some have supported on this board. As far as you son's situation, I have said over and over again that I disagree with what the unit has done, and I hope it resolves in the scout's favor. But it is not a scouting program problem, it is a local adult problem and needs to be solved locally by the adults involved. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Sdriddle, To the best of my knowledge there are no guidelines in the BSA that gives guidance on how to run an elite group within a troop that some boys are not allowed to participate in. ScouterPaul, It's interesteing that you agree with Rooster on the tent scenario since up to this point he has not posted his opinion on it, and as I reread the posters that have, I see no one who viewed it as a punishment. Evmori said that I did (Is this punishment? It could be considered that. And according to Bob, this is in direct contradiction to the G2SS.) but if you reread my post you will see that is not what I said. Just wanted to clarify. Bob(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Scout Parent, It's not that I think different interpretations don't exist. I just don't see it happening as often as I see leaders not get training or not accepting the information given in training. Look at so many of the posts on this board. There are very few examples of people who really see a differnent meaning, the rules and methods are not that difficult to understand and they are not written in a way to mislead or cunfuse. What we see are people who try to twist it to their vision and their methods of scouting. I fou used the methods of the BSA then the policies do not require deep thought to understand. Now I can hear some people getting to respond that I am one of those twisters. But I think if you go back and look at any of the controversies that we have had and look at the intent of the poster compared to the intent of the program and you will see two things. 1.There are posters who even after seeing scout methods such as youth electing leadership in print in multiple resources, turn their back on it saying things like "I don't like it so that is not what we do". 2. Whenever there is wide differences in policies it breaks into two groups, one some that always favors the self-governing of the scouts and some that want more "authority" or control by adults. Look at the purpose and methods of today's scouting and ask yourself which approach reflects the aims and methods of scouting. I do not consider myself unique in scouting in any way. My stubborn dedication to the "current" program was a legacy left to me by the scouters who trained me. They got it from the scouters that trained them, and on and on. The training teams I have been part of have hopefully passed it on to others. I think the majority of leaders do a great job. What concerns me are the leaders who do not get trained or who do not accept the scout methods who get on a public forum and say "here is what I do" to new leaders, who accept much of what they read on the Internet as truth. I believe that the responsible thing for leaders who understand and follow the program to do is to challenge those voices so that the new leaders take the training or read the manuals rather than innocently accept what is posted. I welcome anyone to disagree with what I write as long as they investigate BSA resources to find the answer, and don't jerk their knee up and say, "I don't care, that's not what I do." Bob White

I agree, you will never get everyone to read off the same page. Not becaause the same page doesn't exist, but because there will always be people who don't believe what they read or choose not to read. There are still people who refuse to accept that "death camps" existed during WWII, or that man actually landed on the moon. If they cannot be convinced with the overwhelming evidence that exists, then how can we hope to convince everyone of the methods of scouting. Our best hope is in the numbers we train. Hopefully the more leaders we reach the more leaders we will have that will follow the program. Bob White

Ed, I did what the book said, I included the parents. I did not do the punishing. I protected the other scouts from theis boy and the parents removed him from the camp site. I didn't have him flop on the graound like bacon, sing for forgiveness, or any other silly stunt. I didn't even make his parents come. I gave them a choice, they could come get him or I could have the local police come and get him, their choice. As far as the tent, as i said before you didn't tell the scout to sleep in the rain, You showed him whatto do and he did it wrong. As I continued to say I would make sure there was a plan to keep the scout safe and dry if in fact the weather did turn bad. So my intent was not to haze or embarass the scout. My intent was to let him practice the skill and to protect him if something went wrong. I have to question the effectiveness of flopping on the ground like bacon or singing I'm a Little Teapot to teach a scout responsibility. The use of checklists, Pack shakedowns, Campsite organiozation, proper packing methods, to name afew, are positive educational ways to educate scouts on this topic. I'm sorry but to think that singing a nursery rhyme song "teaches" a skill is as silly as the song itself. Bob

Oge, Some interesting scenerios. My personal thoughts..The scout doesn't have to carry the flag to participate in a flag ceremony and complete the requirement. What I see happening in most cases is the Scout managing the ceremony says "who wants to carry a flag?" then he has to select from all the volunteers. that is a better leadership approach tnan "you do this and you do that." I fthe boy understands that he needs to participate to advance and chooses not to participate, then that is his choice. We provide opportunity for scouts to advance, we don't make them do it. Once I had a patrol stay up way too late. I woke the SPL and had him go wake the PL and get them back to bed. When the noise started again I woke the SPL and had him wake the PL and talk to them again. On the third trip I had the SPL Wake the SPL and stand in front of the boys and start writing there names on a list. When one of the scouts asked what was going on the PL explained that if they were not quiet and back in their tents in two minutes that Mr. White was going to call their parents at home, wake them up and have them come and get their kids. If they couldn't act like scouts then they couldn't camp with scouts. The problem ended immediately. If it hadn't I was perfectly willing to make the phoine calls. After all I was awake, the boys were awake, why shouldn't the parents be awake? Because they stayed up so late they all overslept. By the time they got up the rest of the patrols had left for the main activity and the rowdy patrol members were left sitting in camp without anything to do until the troop returned. I agree with cleaning the latrine on a regular rotation. Sanitation is an important part of personal health and should not be used as punishment to be avoided. Unless someone is in immediate danger, I don't holler. When I do, it is as an alarm not as a reprimand. That is not the leadership style I choose to model. If I have to reprimand a scout it is done away from the other scouts (in the presence of another adult). Bob White

Fun for who? The only purpose in having the scout sing for the return of his property is to embarrass the scout so that he won't repeat his action. It is not the singing that makes it a violation of youth protection, it is the intent behind the act. It's hazing. Sugar coat it any way you want, it is still hazing, and it is distressing that any leader would continue to endorse it. Bob White

Thanks OGE, I appreciate your participation as well. Please don't think that knowing what is in the manuals, and being able to deliver the program in the field are mutually exclusive. Bob White.

It is neither punishment or harrassment since it is not being done to the scout. He was trained and he did it incorrectly. No rule was been broken, no harm was done to the scout or anyone else. Sometimes we learn best by our failures. ON THE OTHER HAND. If you taught the scout 5 times and still he did not learn it is time to look at the methods of the teacher as hard as you look at the ability of the learner. Also, I would hope as a good leader you would counsel the PL on his responsibility to help develop the skills of the patrol and his role in protecting the welfare of the patrol members. perhaps he could have a plan-B ready for when the scout realizes he has done a poor job of tent pitching. (just because it is a warm night does not mean the scout would not be in jeopardy of becoming ill.) Bob White

I recommended reporting to the Council Executive for 3 reasons. First the Cubmaster was made aware of the violation and ignored it. If he will overlook an issue as important as this one he or she is a danger to the pack and to the program. Secondly, if the CO is not intune with the severity of the violation they made drop the ball, and this event needs to be addressed. Thirdly, if the CO does the right thing then there will be some angry ex-volunteers calling the scout office and the Executive needs to be aware of the circumstances. Bob

Their is a difference between separating a scout from danger such as taking away a misused tool, or segrating him from the other scouts for their safety, and making a scout stand up and sing, (or as some troops do, push a penny across the floor with your nose.). There is no way you can defend stunt as a positive way to protect scouts or teach the importance of following rules. The sole purpose of stunts is to embarrass the scout, and that is a violation of Youth Protection Policies. Again I ask, "Why the enthusiasm for wanting to be able to punish other peoples children?" In what scout manual is punishment listed as a skill or responsibility of the SM or ASMs? Please don't answer with "where does it say we can't". That is a weak excuse for not following rules. The manuals don't say you shouldn't run over a scout in a blue Chevy on a Tuesday, does that make it OK to do? The GTSS is clear that parents are to be involved, that scouts are not to be hazed, and that the Leader is responsible for maintaining a safe haven. If that is not enough the Scout Law charges us with being friendly, courteous and kind. Evidently that is not enough direction for some. Bob White

OGE, No one is saying scouts can't sing or have fun. The BSA says you cannot have fun at someone elses expense or embarass a scout as punishment no matter how "fun" the leader might think it to be. Bob White

Ed, You wrote, "Time to get the head out of the books & get back in the real Scouting world!" I have been a unit leader for 27 consecutive years. I don't know how you want me to get back to something I haven't left? "Scouting isn't meant to be a "glass house". Scouting is to teach boys good values." Scouting is meant to be a safe haven free from all forms of bullying, harrassment and abuse, not because I say so but because the BSA says so. If that is not understood by the leaders in the unit you serve then perhaps it is time you got your head into a book and learned todays scouting program. It's not that singing is the worse thing you can make a scout do. It's just that, as the original post mentioned, it is no longer an acceptable practice in the BSA. That point was made not by me but by another district's training team. Like the rule or not it is the rule. Do you also teach the scouts in the unit you serve to only obey the rules they like? "By caving into the politically correct crowd you do the boy no good." I believe I do them more good by following the program than by hiding behind pointless stunts and calling it character development. Bob White

What part of having the parents involved in any punishment is difficult to understand. In what part of Scout Leader training were you taught that punishing scouts was part of your responsibility. I have made parents drive 1,000 miles to retrieve a boy who could not act like a scout so that they could punish him as they saw fit, and I could get back to working with Boy Scouts. (By the way, he had marijuana with him and No, I did not have him sing to get it back.) While we waited for the boys parents to arrive he was kept segrated from the other boys in the company of two adults. This was not done to punish the boy, but to protect the other scouts from him. I have neither the time or motivation to punish any child other than my own. Where does it say that a Scoutmaster cannot punish? Where it says that the parents, the committee in the presence of the parents, and the Charter organization can punish. They list who can because it is a much shorter list than who can't. What is this basis for your vigor to want to punish other peoples children. Is your program so weak? your training ability so poor? Your example so skewed that you cannot get boys to be trustworthy, friendly, obedient, and clean unless you punish them to achieve it? Anyone who needs to dole out punishment to reach the goals of scouting is doing it wrong. Kid tested & pWhere does it say that a Scoutmaster punishes? Nowhaere it says that the parents, the committee in the presence of the parents, and the Charter organization can punish. They list who can because it is a much shorter list than who can't. Kid Tested and Parent Approved, Bob White