Bob White

As camping technology develops and as more and more campgrounds move to letting groundwood decay as part of the natural cycle the need for wodd tools declines. Axes have many draw backs saftey being only one issue. Think of how you have seen scouts and scouters, possibly even in your own troop use an ax or hatchet, then look in the scout handbook at the personal protection equipment they are suppossed to be wearing. For years the handbook has had the use safety glasses, gloves and sturdy shoes as part of the safty they need to learn for totin chip. How many boys or leaders have you seen follow those rules? Very few I would bet. That's why wood tools are one of the most frequent causes of injuries in scouting. The main reason that I think axes will eventual disappear as a camping tool is the growing restrictions against wood fires and the growing use of alternate fuels. Plus as the handbook points out, and most backpackers will tell you, it's a lot of weight for very little return. Bob

Scouting has always had shooting sports for scouts of all ages. Every leader who has ever been to a range, or read the Guide to Safe Scouting regs relating to shooting sports, knows the tremendous amount of safety used and demanded by the BSA. Every shooting sport merit badge begins with the safety rules before the scout ever shoots. To say that scouting or scoutleaders are irresponsible in the way scouts learn these badges is laughable. My own son earned archery MB at his first summer camp along with 36 other new scouts that attended that week. I would bet that hundreds of scouts nationwide get that badge their first year. As far as whether or not they know what thrifty is...Why didn't someone help them to understand it as part of their Scout Badge requirements? (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Don't let it it get to you sctmom. No matter what the policies of the BSA are there will some who disagree with them. That doesn't make those individuals right. The BSA is what the policies of the BSA says it is. Happily, men and women (whose values and actions reflect the values set by the BSA) are welcomed as leaders. Bob White

I think a more logical completion of OGE's premise is... since you don't agree with the law allowing abortion, you could (or would) choose to not be a member of an organization that supported abortions. Just as a person who did not agree with the BSA membership rules can choose not to belong to the BSA, but rather join another organization that did agree with their viewpoint. Leaving the country or relinquishing rights is not needed. Instead those who disagree with the values that have always been held in the BSA program (but have only been made a hot news item in the last few years) could exercise their rights and join an organization that they share values with, just as those who share the values of scouting have the right to restrict membership to reflect those values. There are those who say it is not our right to limit membership because they see it is morally wrong. I would counter that by saying there are those of us who find abortion morally wrong, but we are mature enough to accept that the courts have determined it to be legal. I would not support the act of abortion, but I would not join a pro abortion group and try to convince them they no longer had the right because I disagreed with them. If a person disagreed with the tenets of a church they don't join the church to become a Sunday school teacher, they join a different church. The Sunday school teacher takes the job to teach and spread the beliefs of the church. If they speak against the church they would expect to loss their job. Not because they don't have the right to disagree, but because thay are not doing the job they are supposed to be doing. A person who volunteers to be a scout leader agrees to, and is expected to, follow and support the tenets of scouting. If they don't they are removed. Why are some surprised by this? It is not because they don't have the right to disagree, but because that is not the job they are supposed to be doing. Before you let anyone convince you that expulsion from the BSA due to your sexuality is a growing plague, consider how many cases you have ever heard of (fact or fiction) and divide it by the number of members of the BSA over the years. I believe it is now over 130,000,000. I believe you will find it well under 1%. On the other hand we have leaders on this very bulletin board who admit they do not follow the methods and programs of the BSA and lose 30%-50% of their new scouts every year. More boys have been driven from scouting by poor adult leaders than by the values of scouting. If you want a tragedy to champion, you would do more good, for more boys, by attending to that. Bob White

Hi Laura, Sorry you're not having more fun. When the parents aren't enjoying scouting it is a sure bet the scouts aren't. Here is what I would suggest. 1. What's past is past. Let it go. 2. Focus on the current troop and using the scout methods. Focusing on recruitment before your program is working is not the answer. 3. Get more adults to training. If you are the only one who knows what the big picture is the puzzle pieces will never get put together. 4. Gather like minded parents to your home along with the Charter Rep if possible. Ply them with pie and coffee and positive words, then say we need to change for the good of the boys. Make a new plan and at the next committee meeting lay out your expectations and your personal committments to affect the change. Best of Luck, Bob White

As Baden-Powel pointed out we are teachers and our classroom is the outdoors. As a parent I do not want my son to have adult friends. Adults should have adult friends and youth should have youth friends. I want the adults around my son to be role models to my son not confidants. It is an inappropriate relationship and one the BSA is rightly very leery of. To assume that a parent wants you to develop a personal relationship with their child is a very faulty premise. Train them, trust them, let them lead. That is our charge and our responsibility. If they choose to look up to us as role models it is a compliment. For an adult to set out to build an 'adult/boy relationships far exceeding the boundaries of a troop meeting or campout' would send up all kinds of warning flags with me, and I would bet with the vast majority of other parents.

My teenage son is in band to learn the benefits of a musical background. I trust the teacher to develop him as a musician and to develop his musical skills. Sex counseling is not pertenint to that goal. If I discovered that the band director had a sexual discussion with my son without my knowledge then there would be serious repercussions involving new career choices for the director. My teenage son is in scouting to develop his character and citizenship. Sex counseling from a scoutleader is not pertenint to that goal. If I discovered a scout leader had a sexual conversation with my son without consulting me first they would be removed from scouting. To assume that since a parent allows you to teach camping and leadership skills to a boy that they have entrusted you to discuss personal topics with their son, without thier permission is self-destructive.

c-m-pratt, i'm sorry you are having such a bad time. SPL is a tough job but it should be a positive experience and one you learn a lot of useful skills from. I suggest you get the Senior Patrol Leader Handbook and read throught it. It should help clarify your job and how to do it. Here are some tips. *Your job is not to tell others what to do but to help patrols succeed. *You will accomplish more through asking the patrol leaders questions and getting them to come up with there own answers. remember that the success of the patrol is ultimately in the hands of the Patrol Leader and the patrol members themselves. You can't make them do things or do it for them. You need to make them aware of choices and let them choose there own course of action. *Always work through the Patrol Leader. if you talk to a patrol member it should always be positive and never to give orders or correct them. That's not your job. If a patrol member is out of line or needs help, go to the PL. Here is an example of leading through questions. You arrive at camp and the patrols are setting up there sites. You notice that the Eagles have gathered a pile of firewood, but you also know it might rain. rather than order the patrol to cover the wood, you ask the Pl "So what do you think the weather might be tonight? He says "My folks said it might rain." You say "yeah I heard that too. How would affect all that nice firewood you guys gathered?" PL says "geez maybe we should cover it?" You say "Hey, that's good thinking." "What could you use?" He says "I'll check with the QM and see if he has some extra plastic we could use." You say "you look like you have your plate full getting the site organized, why not ask one of the patrol members to go? I'll check back in about twenty minutes and see if you found some." You could have have saved time and told him what to do but the only thing they would have learned is that you like to tell people what to do. this way they learn to think aboout what is going on around them, and the PL learns how to ask for help rather than boss his patrol members around. Remember as the SPL you don't run the patrols, your organize the troop and help develop patrol leaders. Hope this helps, Bob White

OGE, At 11-years old, many boys already have an allowance and deal with budgeting their money, either way this merit badge could be a great learning experience for them. If a scout wanted to begin working on it, it is his choice. Keep in mind also that that is not the type of badge most 11 year olds are drawn to. The shotgun merit badge is different, if the family tells the scout not to work on a merit badge that is their priviledge. That is not the scoutmaster telling the scout what to do, he is simple following the wishes of the parents or guardians. Also remember that 12ga is not the only shotgun the scout can qualify on. There are lesser gauges that would be easirer for a smaller boy to handle safely that can be used. I really don't think this is a matter of using common sense or not. If it were, common sense would tell us that the joy of being a scout leader is the fun of watching the growth of boys using the scouting methods. There are leaders who don't think boys can lead, who don't think boys can elect leaders, who don't think boys can make good decisions or make bad decisions and learn from them, or choose the MB that interests them personally and be allowed to pursue it. So they see the job of scout leader is to tell boys what to do, in spite of the scouting methods. This isn't a common sense issue, it is a control issue. I think some adults like teaching boys how to lead, while others like to lead boys. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

If you are thinking of taking in someone from the district level to help, I would recommend the district commissioner or someone from the commissioning staff. This type of situation is not within the responsibility area of a district executive. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Just because leaders apply what is in the manual s does not mean it is done blindly. It is done with great vision. Refusing to use what you read would seem blind to me. All references to merit badges are quite clear. "The scout chooses his merit badge". Bob White

If one did what was written in the manuals it would be called a scouting program. As troop leaders we train junior leaders. Nowhere in the program are you asked or instructed to tell a boy what merit badge he should or should not be interested in, or what educational opportunities he can or cannot pursue. Why the aversion to what is written in the manuals. All they contain are the methods and procedures of what we are supposed to be doing and how we are expected to be doig it. Bob White

John, I would agree with you that these boys, and noew your own son, are not experiencing a scouting program. They have fallen into the trap of doing things in a scout shirt and calling it scouting. This is almost always the case in a troop with untrained leaders. My recommendation would be to sit down with the SM and the committee and ask them if they would committ themselves to attending training and moving quickly to a program that used scouting methods. Iin the absence of that committment I would move my son to another troop that uses the scouting program. As a cubmaster I would make a relationship with the more scoutlike unit and be ready to direct the 2nd year Webelos to it. You have a responsibility to the leaders that have kept them in scouting through the Cub Scoout years, to give them them best chance for a quality Boy Scouting experience. Best of Luck Bob White

Ed, I think you know the answer, read the blue card. Then read the entire page 123. You are signing that the boy is ready to begin, not prejudging whether he is capable of completing. You are signing that you know he is beginning on the MB and that you gave him the name of a qualified counselor. Just like page 123 says. What purpose would the BSA or you have for telliing a boy he cannot investigate a topic that interests him? That's not the aim of the program. And I have to believe that you would not do it just to be the guy in charge, and feel you know more about what the scout should be interested in than the scout himself could possibly know. So why say no if he meets the prerequesities of the BSA. What would be the benefit for you? What would be the benefit for the scout? Why create hurdles where none were placed? Bob White

scoutmaster101, in response to your original question. I have alwys found that voting by ballot is the least confusing and the most educational way to do scout elections, whether on a patrol or troop level. Have simple typed ballots prepared ahead of time with the names of the patrol members on them. Have the patrol Leader or patrol Scribe distribute one to each patrol member. The members put a single mark next to one persons name to cast a vote. The ballots are collected and counted to make sure the # of ballots match the # of voting members. then the ballots are counted in front of the patrol members. We do the samew for SPL. Any scout who would like to run is given equal time to (about 3 minutes to tell the troop why he wants the position. The scouts then are put on a ballot and the following week the ballots are distributed, the votes cast and the ballots counted in front of everyone. (remember secret ballot only means no one has to know who your voting for it doesn't mean the counting is secret.) We have never had anyone complain. By the way, for someone to complain that the vote was a popularity contest shows an uncanny grasp of the obvious. All elections are popularity contests. have you ever voted for someone that you did't want to win? Bob White

Thanks OGE, I Get my my feathers ruffled when adults don't get heir act together to help a scout. it seemed to me that DDHII did all the right work and called all the right people. I didn't want him to get gigged when he knew how to do his part but the others were confused. I was glad I could help him. Bob

Mike do your scouts a favor and give that book to a garage sale. You can't operate today's scouting from a 21-year old handbook.

Scoutmaster424, Congratulations, the student has become the teacher. The method s you describe are far closer to the methods taught in the Training syllabii and in the scouting handbooks. MikeF raises some common complaints but I'm not sure where in scouting he draws his solutions from. Mike if you could help clarify your resources it would be helpful. Here is where I'm confused. 1. "1st - You have the authority to set some minimum requirements that a boy must meet in order to be eligible for PL." I know of very few things in scouting that scout leaders have authority over. there are are number of things we have responsibility for, but setting guidelines for patrol and troop elections is not one of them. I am curious to know what BSA material lead you to this conclusion. If anyone has the authority to set election criteria it is the Patrol Leaders Council, and they do not have "authority" within the patrol. Who can be a patrol leader is determined by the vote cast by the patrol members. Then the patrol Leader selects or assigns the other patrol offices (according to the SM handbook and the Patrol Leaders Handbook. 2. "2nd - Consider NOT forcing a leadership turnover every 6 months. In many cases the boy is finally just getting the leadership thing under control about that time." The BSA recommends that elections be done on a regular basis. "usually 6 months", according to the SM handbook, the Boy Scout Handbook, The Patrol Leader Handbook and the Senior Patrol Leader Handbook. So you are not "forcing it" Also keep in mind that the time period of service and method of election is not about the troop running smoothly. it is about learning our form of government and the responsibilities of being part of a community. 3. " Fortunately, leadership is a skill that can be learned. You and especially the SPL should become either the wind under his wings or the thorn in his side. SET VERY CLEAR EXPECTATIONS and HOLD HIM ACCOUNTABLE TO THE LETTER. Remeber when I wrote that scoutleaders have several responsibilities. The number one job of being a Scoutmaster is to Train Junior Leaders. Nowhere does the BSA train adult leaders to be a thorn in a boy's side. We need to set a positive example and use positive training methods to get positive results. Even adults don't hold other adults accountable to the letter (if they do you can expect both parties to be miserable). These are kids for pete's sake, and they are learning from you how to lead. If they are not learning then look to the teacher for the fault. The methods you suggest Mike are not found in any scouting material I have ever seen. Scoutmaster424 wrote "So, we are trying to train the leaders that are elected, that the boys wanted as their leaders and give them the chance to do their best. If things don't go to well, then another boy can take the position and see what he can do." That sounds to me like the scouting program. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

OOps sorry Tim, Yes I was. Adult knots can be worn on any of your uniforms. Training awards such as the Commissioners Arrowhead Award can only be worn on a commissioners uniform. The trained strip is worn on the uniform if you have completed the basic training for the position patch worn on the uniform. A trained Troop Committee member who is also a commissioner, but hasn't completed Commissioner Basic Training can wear the trained strip on his/her committee uniform but not on the commissioner uniform. I apologize again for the name error. Bob White

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purcelce, Your bigest hurdle was one of timing. This is not an effective time of the year to find new Boy Scouts. Most eligible cubs crossed into troops in February. The few non-cub boys who might join have alreadyt made summer plans. Take this time to get your strategy together. Start building a relationship with a pack or packs. Invite 2nd year webelos to a fall campout or winter troop lockin. Begin recruiting for thee February cross-overs. The are lots of eligible boys, but just like in fishing it's naot just a matter of bait, you have to be out when the fish are biting. Good Luck, Bob White

Dan, Yes Bob

LauraT7, You will find the merit badge information you seek in the Boy Scout Handbook and in the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

quick, call Terry Lawson, Boy Scout Director of Advancement at (972) 580-2436.

I appreciate your point Fscouter but that doesn't work either. In order to hold a charter there must be a registered cubmaster, committee chair, 2 committee members, 5 scouts, and a denleader for each registered age group and a Tiger den leader if you have any number of tiger cubs. Bob