Bob White

I realize that some volunteers do more than 1 job however the structure of this Board only allows me to give you 4 choices. most people do 1 primary job, and I am wondering how many have completed basic training for that job in the last 7 years. I appreciate that some volunteers have gone beyond basic, but I really didn't wnat this to become a contest as to who has been to more or done more. I just was wondering how many are basic trained in their primary position. Bob White

When you stop to think about it, scoutings doors are far more open than most other youth activities and as open as any get. Can just any boy be on the high school football team? In all most every case no. Can anybody join International Rotary who walks in off the street? Does your company employ anyone who applies? Does your schools accept any child regardless of age, residency or behaviour? Does the military accept every applicant. Every group has some criteria for joining. The basis varies from group to group but all have expected standards. Scouting has set standards that allow a huge variety of ages, abilities, religions, nationalities, and income and background. They draw the line at behavior and values that they determine best achieve their goals. Coaches, employers, the governement, even parents, make these same kinds of decisions every day. We even serve you if you don't have shirt and shoes. If there is a boy on the block whose behavior you don't want your child exposed to, then you don't allow your child to play with him. Our restrictions are minimal compared to most.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Scouts Honor now. How many of of the posters here have completed Basic Leader Training for their current positions, in the last 7 years. I use that point of reference because the programs have changed a whole lot since that time. Remember Scouts Honor! Please answer only once.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Hi littlebillie, That is my point, that while you have a right as a citizen to disagree with the BSA, you do not have the "right" to membership in a private organization. The Supreme Court's ruling was very clear, the BSA as a private oranization has a right to free association and is free to choose it's own membership, membership rules and values. You are free to disagree and the BSA has the right to say "not in my house" just as you have the right to determine who stays in your house. The BSA has made it clear that avowed homosexual or atheist, adults and youth, are not eligible members of the BSA. The BSA can also revoke membership from people who publicly speak or act against any of their rules or values. That is the BSA's constitutional right. I support everyones right to free speech even when it does not agree with my views. Why won't those same people aknowledge the that a private orginazation has a constitutionally protected right to choose its own members and to remove members who disagree with their values? If we really are celebrating our country's freedoms then shouldn't we celebrate all of them, especially those that protect people who we may not agree with, since we would want them to honor the laws that protect us? Happy 4th. Bob

BubbaBear, I have done nothing to attack you personally, I do not understand your need to insult me. You ask us if compromise is good or evil. Compromise as a verb is neither good nor evil. It is only in the context of what you compromise, or why you compromise, that a judgment value can be attributed to it. Is swimming good or bad? Depends on where you swim. Swim in someones private pool with out their permission or against their rules and that would be bad. I realize that you kept your USA/BSA comparison simple but logically it has a flaw. Just because two groups share one element in common (in this case a representational form of decision making) does not guarantee they share any other features as your argument implies. As far as the right to civil disobedience, that too has its constitutional limitations. A good example is that, while you can insult me on this board, you do not have the right to enter my private home and insult me. I have the right to throw you out. You have a constitutional right to voice your displeasure with the BSA, however your protection ends when you choose to be a member of a private organization. The BSA, and this has been upheld by the US Supreme Court, has the right as a private organization to throw you out of their house if you misbehave. It is no different than your right to choose who stays in your home. I apologize in advance because I know you will not enjoy reading this, but, it is not the BSAs actions to determine its own membership that violates anyones constitutional rights, it is the act of trying to force a private organization to surrender its rights of free association that violates that organizations constitutionally protected rights. Thats only according to the U.S. Congress and the U.S. Supreme Court though. As you celebrate this Fourth of July remember that one of the rights protected by the foundation of this country is the BSAs right to determine its own membership. Bob White

BubbaBear, I don't think compromise is right or wrong. I think think compromising one's values is wrong. Believe in who you are and what you stand for and act accordingly. To say that since the USA works by a representative governent and has bad people and that the BSA works by a representative system it too must hve bad people is not a logical argument. The ocean is full of water and and has sharks, the Missouri river is full of water so it too must have sharks? I don't believe that's true. There are good people and bad people in all walks of life. I hardly feel either the government or the BSA has cornered the market in that respect. I do not profess to be a spokesman for my religion only for my faith, and have not represented myself as such. I do not understand how it is pertinant to this topic? This is about agreeing to follow the rules of a organization you volunteered to serve. As unit volunteers, and like you I have been one for many years, we serve the BSA and its youth members. We do not run the BSA. We are not Chater organizations of the BSA. You made an interesting statement. "Scouting has a right to determine its own values and rules". And that I might add, should be a consensus of everyone whom supports scouting, not just its biggest supporters." Who better to have input on the future of the program than the organizations who use it the most. The national committees are made ov unit leaders, youth members, charter organization reps, major contributors, a whole variety of people from alll walks of life. You have national reps from your council, let them know your position. I never suggested you should leave scouting. I said I would not join an organization, or stay as a member of an organization whose rule and values I did not agree with. There are other organizations out there to join that would embrace those same values. What you have done for scouting is not the relevant point. The point is that scouting is what the BSA says it is. Just because a person supports scouting does not qualify to determine national policy. I support the Easter Seals, but I volunteer my time to them just as I do in scouting. I do not profess to be qualified to determine Easter Seals National Policy. If I did not like their program I would not have chosen to continued to support them. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Well TJ you lapsed into your usual defense. When you cannot discuss the points made by a poster you attack him personally. Very un-scoutlike. I've never said I spoke for the BSA. I pointed out that to try and manage an organization where every unit was given the local option to determine what the rules and values of the program was would be impossible. The BSA's stand on avowed homosexuals is not the only value that all people don't agree with. My point was that you cannot be all things to all people and be a national program. Secondly I pointed out that the BSA has the right as a private organization to determine it's rules, values and memberships. Bubba says he would lay done his life to protect the freedoms of this country . Guess what. Scoutings right of free association is one of them. There is no constitutional right for people to belong to a private organization just because they want to. You have a right to choose (and I feel a personal obligation) not associate with groups whose values you do not share. Has scouting banned all gays over the years? No. Have they banned avowed gays over the years? Yes. This is not new. The fact that you didn't know what scouting saw as positive moral influences says more about your general lack of knowledge of scouting than it says about the BSA. I have kept my involvement in this conversation to a minimum, mainly because of your behaviour. You want others to show tolerance for the people you want to include in scouting, and yet you show no tolerance for people whose opinions do not agree with you. You avoid logical discussion in favor of personal insults. It is my personal opinion that you are not actually a scout or scout leader mainly because your posts show far more knowledge of rude behaviour than of scouting methods. This issue affects very few people in the scouting program, and even fewer units. It's like a New Years party, it causes alot of noise but it really doesn't change anything. If you want to make a difference talk to your local scout executive and ask him to recommend you as a national board member. I'm certain with your obvious charm and leadership skills he will rally to your cause. Knock'em dead in Irving, Bob White

Just as a point of clarificcation, Bubbabear wrote "Do we not allow the majority to rule in the case of selection of a President of the United States?" Sorry Bubba, but No, we don't. As I mentioned to you in a previous posting when you mistakenly refered to us as a majority ruled democracy, we are in fact a republic governed by representatives. The President is elected by an Electoral College who can vote, but are not required to vote, according to the voters of the states they represent. As we experienced in the last election, due to the structure of the college a candidate can be, and has been, elected by a majority of the College without having recieved a majority of the total votes cast nation wide. In much the same way scout unit committees are not required to operate by a majority vote. And while Scouting on a national level is run by committees with representatives from scouting units and charter organization representatives, not all of it is run by majority rule. (That blows the conspiracy theories all to heck.) My point being that although I realize you mean well in what you write the premises that you base them on are flawed. Bob White

"is it not fair for one side to ask the other to give up its convictions in favor of the other any more that visa versa?" What is fair, and reasonable, would be to not volunteer to lead a program whose rules and values you do not accept. You are not asking for local units to have a some choices in who their members are. They already have that choice. You are asking for every unit to be able to determine what the scouting program is. It is like allowing every NFL football team to be able to play by there own rules. How could we as a national program develop programs and resourses to operate by if evey unit had a different definition of what scouting was. Our values are who we are. They are approved by a large national committee made up of representatives of organizations that accept and use the scouting program. In the 92 years of the BSA there have been organizations that have not sponsored scouting or dropped scouting because of a disagreement over its rules, its values, its uniforms etc. Some groups started their own version of scouting. The YMCAs Indian Guides began as scouting units as did the Assembly of God's Royal Rangers. That's fine. they have every right to do that. But the BSA has rights too. Scouting has a right to determine it's own values and rules. We have never and will never be able to please everyone, and there is nothing wrong with that. Moses brought the 10 Commandments not the "10 Opportunities for Moral Compromise". Over the years millions have made the choice not to follow or to belong to organizations that follow those values. that is their choice. But organizations that do follow those rules (like for instance a church) can say "we will not let you teach our program if you do not agree with these values". Scouting has determined what the values of our program are. They have the right to expect that the people who lead it agree to those values and rules. They have the right and the obligation to the members who joined because of those values to see that the leaders live by those values. As a member of the BSA and the parent of a scout, I have no problem with that. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I'm with you Chip, Not that training more training isn't a good thing, but you don't want to increase adult suprervision for something like this. Perhaps they need positive motivation to finish cooking sooner, like if you are done by XX:XX then we will go __________! Perhaps they need more practice. How about making a gae of it? Have a race, have a pancake flipping contest, have a taste test with prizes. More than likely they need to be left alone. If the other adults don't like seeing them taking so long, tell them not to look. You are on the right track, stay the course. Bob

The evidence you seek is in the manual titled Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures. This booklet is available for purchase at your local council service center. As the other posters have said, no individual, group or unit may add to, or subtract from the advancement requirements as listed and described in the various youth handbooks, except the nation executive board. Make sure your leaders understand this is a BSA national regulation not a suggestion or an option. Bob White

BubbaBear, I don't understand how as a scout leader, say "I am not concerned with other's moral beliefs". Scouting is based on individuals moral beliefs. The Scout Oath and Scout Law are are blueprints for moral character. How can you accomplish the aims of scouting without a positive moral code? How can you have strong character without morals? How can you be a good citizen without morals? I agree that which religious belief a person has is irrelevant, but certainly not having a religious belief is relevant. I agree that a person sex is not relevent, but a person's sexual conduct is. What I disagree with you the most on, is your implication that we should be able to compromise on everything. Not everything in life is open to compromise. My wedding vows (according to my wife) are not open to compromise. My promise to be faithful to her is not optional. She is not about to agree to a compromise on this topic. Does your wife feel any different? For those posters who were in the military, when you took the oath of loyalty to your country did you have the impression that this was open to compromise? I am not saying follow blindly. I am saying open your eyes before you decide which path to take. Before you join a group, take a vow, or sign an agreement, make sure that you can live by the committment you make. Be carefull what you compromise. Once you give away your morals it is nearly impossible to get them back. Bob White

OOPS! Let me add to my last post. The answer I gave was a boy scout view. In cubscouts the neckerchief signifies rank and is not a uniform option. The cubs may however customize their neckerchief slides. as cubs the neckerchiefs can be used for firt-aid training and blindfolds for games.

Yes, I have a copy in my collection. It is from the 1920's. The neckerchief has been a standard uniform piece in nearly every country since the origin of the program. Over the years it has become more ornamental that utilitarian. Most of its original purposes were related to first-aid and comfort. Today the neckerchief is used primarily for unit identification and as a display of special camps or activities the scout has taken part in. Altho still an official uniform piece, it is an option that can be determined by each unit. Bob White

Sorry paul but the parents may be forming the leadership of the troop but they are still chartered to an organization. that organization must identify an executive officer who signs the contract (charter agreement)with the BSA. That charter organization that is registered as the sponsor of the pack and troop owns the assets of both units, including the funds raised by either or both, not the parents of the webelos, not the unit committees. That is what makes "the parents of..." and other similiarly casually constructed organizations so brittle. You not only need a committee for each of the units but you need officers to oversee the credibility of the Chartering Organization.

How the charter organization was formed has no bearing on what I wrote initially. You still have a charter organization. Your charter requires you to have identified an executive head. Only they can start a new troop and the money earned by the pack still belongs to the CO to do with as they see fit. If that is to expand the scouting services then they can direct CO resources to that end. Bob White

Consider this. There are four steps to Boy Scout advancement. 1. A scout learns, 2. A scout is tested, 3, a scout is reviewed, 4. a scout is recognized. nothing says that the scout has to learn everything in a scout meeting or campout, or who taught him or how he learned. The important thing is that he learned and can pass the prescribed test. So a good way to work with a scout is to say, "tell me what you know about..." Listen, watch and evaluate what he says or does. Support him in the things he knows or does correctly and train him in the things he has not learned yet or does incorrectly. If the scout knows everything he needs to know about knife use and safety that's great. don't worry about where he learned it as long as he is correct. Fill in missing information and move on to the testing phase. Bob White

"Scouting changed the house rules, and you and I were already living here. No they didn't, I've been in the program over thirty years, and their membership rules are exactly what I expected based on the values and goals of the program. My parents were leaders long before me and they understood the values to be exactly what the program stands for today. Bubba, you asked "do they have the courage to stand up for what is right?" They do, and they are. The fact that not everyone agrees with them does not make them wrong. I don't say any of the posters who disagree with the BSA can't disagree. I just wish they would quit being so surprised when they are told to leave the program. The Supreme Court has established the BSA's right to determine its own membership. If you like what they do and how they do it and want to help, join. If you don't agree, don't join. If you do join play by the rules. I don't see where the logic of this evades people. As far as blind obedience, communist manefesto etc. etc. Bull Crud! We take an oath that says obedience, loyalty and bravery are noble attributes. Yet if I show it to the scouting organization you try to brand me with labels that are not friendly, courteous or kind. I see no added value to the scouting experience by using it as a stage for acceptance of a political agenda that has no interest in the character development of a boy. Bob White

The pack cannot "decide" to start a troop. If you mean that the charter organization that has the pack is starting a troop that's different. Keep in mind that the money in your bank account is not the pack's. It is the Charter organization's. Since the Charter Organization is expanding their scouting program using the money they already have in their scouting program as seed money makes perfect sense. I agree that I would use a amount that is based on the Webeolos joining the troop and perhaps a little more if it can be afforded to help with start up costs. However you need to do with the CO's money what they ask you to do. it sounds to me like they took a very reasonable approach by saying "bring us a plan". I would do as requested and see how things progress from there.

Bubba, you fail to aknowledge that altho the individual states can "handle their own internal problems through their own constitutions", no state constitution can exceed the boundaries of the Federal constitution. Just as individual Charter organizations have a large amount of local authoriity they cannot exceed the limits set by the nation policies of the BSA. The Charter organizations voluntarily accept and agree to those policies each year at charter renewal. If they choose not to follow those policies they are not forced to have a scout unit. But if they choose to use scouting they must choose to use all of it. Bob White

All the scouting handbooks say "the boy chooses", you rationalize taking that away from him any way you want. The handbook says "Boy" scouts. Baden-Powell wrote "Don't do anything for a boy that a boy can do for himself". A boy is certainly capable of choosing what interests him, and the advancement program supports that. Don't get me wrong Ed I'm not saying you can't control how the boys think or force them to do only the badges you think they should do. As the SM can do whatever the parents and committee let you do. I'm not expecting to change how you run the troop. But there are alot of other leaders who read these posts, and I'm hopeful I can influence others to let the scouts follow their individaul interests and make the trail to Eagle one that is personal to them, as it is promised in the handbooks and taught in the training courses of the BSA. Bob White

TJ In response to your questions I give you this example. I have two brothers who are police officers. They swore to uphold the law. They chose their profession knowing what the laws were and that they could change at any time. What the laws used to be or may be someday is irrelavent. Their responsibility is to the laaws that apply today. Their approval or disapproval of the individual laws is irrelavent. There job is not to make or change the law. Their job is to maintain the rules that let the community function. My father is a deacon in the catholic church. he accpted the resonsibility knowing the teachings and tenenets of the church and knowiing they could change at any time. What the future tenets will be is irrelavent. His responsibility is to the current teachings. He embraces the values of the church as his own or he would not accept the duties involved. I take my responsibilities to my community and to scouting the same way. I volunteered to do this service and I agreed to use the methods and to follow the regulations as they are today. Not as they used to be or might be in the future. I have been and am involved as a volunteer at many levels in scouting. I have a role in influencing scouting to a small degree on a national level. If I see the need for change I share it with the people responsible for affecting that change, I don't weaken the program by puffing my chest out and wailing in public or by using my methods rather than the scouting methods. I would not embarass myself by belonging to an organization who's policies values I disagreed with, and I would not be so naive as to think I could violate an organizations rules and stay a member of that organization. As a guest in your home I am bound by yopur rules. if I don't like them I can leave. If you don't like behavior you can make me leave. I don't get to stay because I think you are wrong. A svolunteers we are guiests in BSA's house. NO it is not our house! The BSA was here before we came, it will be here when we are gone. If you don't like the house rules leave. If you don't follow the house rules you can be thrown out. You do not have a right to stay just because you think you are right. You are here as a team player not a team owner. if you don't like the rules of the game you get to go play another game. You want to change the rules fine do it by the rules. Until then you don't get to play a different game or interrupt the game for others. Bob White

My personal opinion when it comes to wood tools is that a bow saw is far more useful than an ax or hatchet. If I need wood for fire or shelter and need to adjust the length of the stock, a saw is far more efficient and a better tool choice. The only real value in an ax is to split wood to get to the dry heart. I have to chuckle when I think of an ax being useful to build your shelter or make a fire when the gas or electricity in your home fails. It reminds me of the run on tents when the people were scared by the Y2K bug that some thought would destroy civization as we know it. It tickled me that people thought if their power failed that they would find comfort by setting a tent up in the back yard. If and when (because it happens too frequently in my neighborhood) we lose power, my last thought is to grab my ax and go outside to build a shelter, or if my gas went out I don't think chopping wood for my gas fireplace would help. I build a fire every time I camp and I overnight in a natural shelter at least once a year. I'm sure I haven't used an ax for anything other than teaching Totin'Chip in 15 years. As far as lost in the woods, a compass and a water bottle weigh less and more usefull than an ax. IMHO, Bob

Don't misunderstand me fboisseau, I never said don't talk to the scout. Counseling is good. Helping the scout understand what will be expected for the MB is good. Deciding for the scout is wrong. Bob

"It is a misinterpretation of the principles of Scouting, by people who wish to impose their religious beliefs on everybody else." Right, and the traffic laws are a misinterpretation of the principles of the founding fathers. So you will continue to obey all the other laws except the few traffic laws that YOU don't agree with. That still makes you a bad driver.