Bob White

accu40, As far as why the coaches at school can be so demanding on attendance, keep in mind they have a pay check involved. They are expected to field a winning team, even in grade school, in order to get bigger and better paying jobs. As far as what do I do when someone wants to go on a campout at the last minute? How is that my problem? He is not in my patrol! We train patrol leaders to plan with their patrol. If the food is bought and the gear is drawn and transportation arranged, then I would expect the PL to tell the scout "if you bring your own food, your own tent and your own ride here is where we are camping". You don't need troop rules to teach good planning and common courtesy. "And Bob, their is nothing that says being active is more than paying your dues." Actually thats not true, page 169 of the Boy Scout Handbook addresses this. It says nothing about paying your dues. It says you have to be there to make a difference. What is active to one may not be to another. What are the demands of his position, what are his other obligations, what are his goals and his personal timetable. These are things you can't legislate by a broad set of rules, you need to understand the individual scout. The Scout hanndbook contains all the rules you need for a successful scout program. They are contained in the scouting ideals, and the advancement requirements. You can try making your own rules but you will spent an unnecessary amount of time creating them, administering them, and trying to keep from contradicting BSA rules. Bob

Hi suzdvm, As far as the "official" rules, most are found in the the BALOO training course. BALOO is required training for any cub family camp event. Someone in your pack organization should have been BALOO trained and in a supervisory capacity at the event. The SM and the SPL as always are responsible for the troop. Without proper documentation the visiting 17-year-old should not have been allowed to stay. That rule should have been clearly shared with everyone attending. The lizard incident is a violation of the local laws and of the BSA's Outdoor Code. It should have been dealt with by the SM. Your problem is less the behavior of the scouts and more the lack of supervision by the adults responsible for the event. Bob White

Philmont is a high adventure base, and high adventure comes with risk. In fact all scouting comes with risk. We play with fire, sharp tools, water activities, snow sports, cave exploration, rock climbing and rappelling, among other potentially hazardous activities. However in scouting all these activities are preceeded by training. Your son has hopefully been training for his Philmont experience along with the other members of his crew. The Ranger staff at philmont will help to prepare him further for his trek. The other posters are right, trust in your son's abilities to do what is required of him, and trust in the programs ability to develop and train scouts. Your son is going to have a great experience and so will you. Bob White

A quick update- I can tell you for sure that the the zip-off leg uniform pant is not going to happen. The military has tested this uniform option and has scrapped it as well. The zippers do not meet their durability testing and unless you wash them as a complete unit they fade at differing rates and look tacky. For those reasons the BSA has dropped them for now. I got this from a panel of BSA professionals at Philmont. Bob

accu40, Consider this, the person who suffers the most, is the person who is not attending. If the scouts in attendance are suffering then that is a leadership problem. Scouts with high levels of "unexcused" absences are trying to tell you something. There is something missing from the program that is important to them. That is not to say that what they are looking for can be provided in scouting, however it is our responsibility as leaders to discover that missing element. Pushing them them farther away is probably not the best answer for the good of the individual scout. Just a thought. Bob White

hi sctmom, It's nice to know you missed me I just returned from a stint at Philmont Training Center. You did a fine job of pointing ou that regardless of what one may "feel" or wish, the requirements are what they are and cannot be added to or subtracted from. The Boy Scout Handbook defines the requirements clearly and no one can alter them. A minimum attendance added to an advancement requirement is a violation of the advancement policies. There are better ways to evaluate whether a scout has actively served in a leadership capacity or is an active member of a unit. By the way being a paid member is not enough. My handbook is still packed up from my trip, but I'm sure someone has one on hand and can find the reference on being an active member. Good to be home but it's great to be at Philmont, Bob White

Hi t23nolasplscrbhst, Good question and probably quite common. Before you start to think "What's wrong with these new kids?" think about this... first they are new kids, they came from a program where the only people they had to listen to were adults, so they are not used to peers as leaders. Secondly they don't want to be seen as the new kids, so there is a tendency for them to try an act up to show they are not afraid of the older scouts. It's like the young bulll in the pen scuffing the ground and snorting at the older stronger bull. It's not because he thinks he is strong enough to take him on and survive, he justs wants the bigger one to know he's a bull. Here are some tips that can help. 1. Use the New Scout Patrol program. If the boys are in a patrol with scouts their own age they are less prone to acting up to fit in. 2. Give them a Troop Guide, an older scout who treats them with respect and shows genuine concern for their scouting growth. 3. As a senior scout don't try to tell others what to do. Thats not your job or the SPL's job. The patrol leader is responsible for the individuals in the patrol as well as the patrol as a whole. Only talk to the PL when it comes to giving instructions. 4. Get your junior leaders trained. There are new handbooks available for the patrol leaders and senior patrol leaders. They are excellent and will give you a better understanding of what "running the troop" means. I hope this helps. Keep your questions coming, there are some very good leaders on this board who are always happy to help a scout. Happy Scouting, Bob White

Hi Chippewa, I think you know my answer. If the boys made the decision then the decision is made. the role of the Troop Committee (and by the way that is the correct label) is to fiind ways to support that decision. You need a friendly heart to heart with the committee chair to clarify the role of the committee and its members. Bringing in the committee training program "Troop Committee Challenge" will help. So would reviewing the contents of the Troop Committee Guidebook. Not meaning to stir the pot too much but here are two things to consider. 1. 'Going to training' is not always followed by 'using the training'. 2. Nothing in the scouting program says that the troop committee is operated by majority vote. The training and the manual say that the troop makes the decisions and the committee helps make it happen, AND that the committee chair (working in cooperation with the SM and the charter rep) assigns tasks to the committee members and they report back at the committee meeting. You are on the scouting path when you let the boys make these decisions. now you need to get the committee chair to make the committee walk the same trail. Bob PS: The ex-SM should not have over ridden your e-mail like that. He should have talked to you and if a rertraction needed to be made he should have let you send it. That was very poor etiquette on his part.

OGE, No offense taken. I enjoy our exchanges very much. Just to recap for those who missed the other string. BSA now recognizes the optimum troop size to be 30 to 60scouts. The reason is that beyond that size either the patrols will be too large for a boy to lead 9more than 8) or the number of patrols will be too large for the SPL to manage in a PLC (more than 8). These numbers were determined after years of studying youth and evaluating troop operations. Not to say that there arent units larger than 60, however the scouting objectives of youth leadership become extremely difficult. These super troops often end up being run by the adults even when the intention is there to let the boys run it. It is simply to large an operation for the methods of scouting to be employed consistently. Now back to OGEs question, the problem has handled in many different ways. Some charter organizations have helped other local organizations start new troops to fill an obvious need in the community. Others have referred the scouts away explaining that they are not able to accommodate more members at this time. Another option that I have seen is a divisional troop where the patrols are divided into a Red troop and a Blue that meet on different nights of the year each lead by an ASM. Each unit operates as a separate entity with its own committee that shares a Committee Chair and Scoutmaster. The SM job becomes one of training and coaching the ASMs. My personal experience has been that the best solution is more charter organizations. More charter organizations have greater stability, greater total membership potential, able to meet a variety of family schedules, allows for families to join a scout unit sponsored by their own school church or club, helps families who might have a personal conflict with unit leaders maintain a scouting connection for their kids. Smaller troop also have an easier time recruiting new scoutmasters. (and if every unit followed the program, scouts from different units would have a consistent scouting experience and result) As afar as how big should the troop get? That should be the decision of the units 3 key administrators. The SM, the committee chair, and the charter organization rep.. They are in the best position to determine, what the program will support, what the committee can administrate and what the sponsor can support. As others have pointed out there are a variety of problems that arise in over-60-member troops, youth leadership, too much adult participation, camping limitations, meeting room limitations, transportation problems etc. but the one that concerns me the most is the lost boy. A little fish in way too big a pond. It is the SMs responsibility to know and understand the needs and characteristics of every boy in the troop. How many of us currently know the personal needs and characteristics of 60 or more people? So OGE, I would sit down with your units key 3 and determine the best course for the good of the scouts and the stability of the scouting program in the community you serve. Im confident that you will find a solution that fits your community. Bob

Actually acco40, according to the Troop Committee Guidebook and the troop committee training course the Troop Committee Challenge, The Scoutmaster is the program representative to the troop committee and shares adult recruitment responsibilities with the committee. Although the Committee Chair and Charter Organization Rep. or executive officer do the final approvals, the scoutmaster is expected to help recruit other adult leaders. In addition it is the Scoutmasters responsibility ( in coordination with the Committee Chair) to determine the job function for those leaders. So while I would agree that it is not the responsibility of the SM alone, and that others must approve the individuals he recruits, the Scoutmaster plays a key role in recruiting and developing assistants. Bob White

dancinfox, Policies and procedures are cut and dry. Things such as safety, uniforming, advancement, and membership. Methods, such as the patrol method, are program elements that make the BSA program unique among all youth activities. They are both a process and a philosophy. They are structured to the point that without them it is not scouting, but they are flexible to accomodate age levels and group size. They are rigid in the purpose and intent, but they leave a little elbow room to accomodate the individual characteristics of the youth. A good example is the patrol method. Breaking a troop into patrols and assigning leaders is not the patrol method. Boys electing leaders and self governing through those elected leaders is the patrol method. Where you see me get frustrated is not with the leaders who want to know what to do, like T337SM, it is with leaders who say "I know what the program and the handbook say, but I don't do that" T337SM brings up a common concern how smalll is too small, or how big is too big to run the patrol method. The patrol method can work with any number of boys as long as you accept what the BSA's definition of "work" is. The effectiveness of the patrol method is not found in how smooth the troop runs, but in the amout of control and decision making done by the boys. Although there is not a too small there is now in BSA's opinion a too big. It is believed that a troop larger than 60 cannot function properly using the patrol method. (I am sure there are some units out there who may be doing just fine so don't barrage me with with examples) The reasoning behind it is this. We know that a young man can naturally function isn a social group of 6 to 8 boys, a basic patrol. but look at what happens to a troop of 65. Lets say that an SPL, an ASPL and 2 instructors and a JASM. That leaves 60 boys with an average of 7 boys to a patrol this you give you at least 8 patrols. So after 65 the PLC gets too large for a boy too handle comfortably. (Remember that the PLC is like a patrol of patrol leaders with the SPL leading it.) A troop that gets over 65 usually ends up with adults doing too much of the work. An ideal size for the scouting methods to be able to fully function and to allow youth leadership and to have enough adult support and resources is 30 to 60 scouts. I am not thrilled that I am percieved as the stickler for rules on the board. I think it has more to do with the occasional inappropriate advice that has been shared by a few posters, where I felt I had to bring things back to the BSA perspective. I quoted the resource books to show this was not my opinion but the BSA program. Thanks for listening Dancinfox, Bob

dancinfox, Is this really a topic that deserves the anger you are giving it? The SPL's responsibility is to oversee the PLC and to run troop meetings. Troops are the gathering of patrols. This unit only has one patrol. To elect one person to supervise two meetings a month over one person is not the purpose of the Patrol Method. By following the steps I described the unit will operate as a patrol with elected leadership by the boys and every member having a responsibility. That is the Patol Method. (see the Scoutmaster handbook and the Patrol Leaders handbook) once another patrol is added in February, the troop (a gathering of Patrols), can elect an SPL. I hope this clarifies things for you, now take a nap, you seem a bit cranky this morning. Bob White

Good question T337SM, Don't let size through you. You can still use the patrol method. Keep in mind what the main points of the patrol method are. >Elected youth leadership >boys leading boys >Adults training the elected and appointed leaders Since you only have one patrol the role of Senior Patrol leader is not needed. Once two patrols are formed include a Senior Patrol Leader position. In the mean time have the patrol elect a patrol leader. have the PL select an assistant. Then have the PL recruit the other 3 boys to be a QM, a scribe, and perhaps a librarian or historian. (don't double up responsibilities, remember they are just learning how to lead to over burden them. Start working with the PL to plan troop meetings and outings. Encourage your scouts tobring in a friend (there is a very sharp new "recruiter" badge available.) I would always give a free pizza coupon to a scout and his new recruit to enjoy together. Recruit an Assistant Scoutmaster to begin working the packs for new recruits in February. When the Webelos join in Feb. make them a New Scout Patrol (or patrols) of 5 to 6 boys (if possible) to match your existing patrol. Now you are on your way. You will be a full troop in no-time. Best of Luck, Bob White

Hi Korea, oh I'm not saying it isn't measured. That's done as much for the council and district volunteers as it is for the professional staff. We need a yard stick to be able to determine the effectiveness of the local program. But as far as what is used to determine the productivity of a DE it is still membership, manpower and money. Bob White

Bubba I wasn't antagonizing. I was being quite serious. What happens or more precisely what doesn't happen on this board should be the decision of the owner who allows us to use it. You asked that you, Ed and I stop posting and I did. In the mean time you posted 5 or 6 times. I am having a hard time accepting your commitment and sincerity in this matter. I offered a compromise as you have asked others to do and in return I get a very harsh response. That doesn't seem to be very fair minded. (This message has been edited by Bob White)

Hey BubbaBear, how about a compromise? Since we just participate in this board voluntarily and do not own or determine the policies of the site, let's let those people who do run the site make the decision as to whether or not the topic gets didcussed. Then as a voluntary participant you can choose to follow the decisions made by the site owners or choose to join a different board that embraces your values and preferences. (see the parallel to scouting? Bob White

If you are asking for the the technically correct answer..... 1. If as you say it is not an "official" badge, then it does not go anywhere onthe official unifor. it could be displayed on a vest, non-official jacket, scrap book, patch blanket etc. 2. If it meets the requirement of a locally produced district or council activity patch (ask you DE for the elements that the patch must contain) it could be worn on the right breast pocket only, as a temporary activity patch, and nowhere else on the uniform. hope this helps, Bob White

Mr Fox, i appreciate if you could site your references on your 2 points. In fact the Advancement Procedures Policyies and procedures says something quite different than what you site. The MB is earned when the MB counselor signs it, and no where in a scout resource does it say the SM is the only person to sign scout spirit. Iin addition the Boyscout hasndbook gives the requirements for scout spirit and it refers only to living the oath and law in your everyday life. Bob White

Evmori, I look at it more as accurate and laden with sarcasm. It has become apparent that any similarities between your methods and the Boy Scout Handbook are purely coincidental. I enjoy training new and old leaders, I enjoy answering questions from leaders who want to do the right thing, I enjoy that I learn new skills and new ways of teaching skills nearly every time I meet a scouter. But the night I wrote that last post I had just returned from a council task force meeting on long term program planning for our council. There was a scouter there who had some ideas that were in direct conflict with scouting regualtions. He also had some comments about scout leader training that related to course syllabii we hadn't used in years. One of his complaints was the inaccessible times that training was held. I offered him to name any evening that was good for his committee (he is a troop committee chair) and I would see that a trainer was there to do NLE and then return at their coinvenience to do Troop Committee Challenge. He declined. He prefered complaining to getting trained. His biggest concern was that he would only argue with the trainer. Why, I asked, would he feel compelled to argue with someone sharing the current national program with him? Because, he answered, that is not how we do things. So you see, he he doesn't want to bring the scouting program to his community. He wants to bring "his" scouting program the community. As long as it's his, he gets to be in charge. I invited him several times to come get trained and he declined several times. After all he's been doing it for 15 years. (he's been doing it wrong for 15 years). He has had 8 or 9 Eagles a year. (a number relevant only to the measurement of his ego not to scouting). He knows all about scouting. (when I asked him what the 3 goals of scouting were, he had no idea, but was sure he was doing them.) I asked him if he hunted, he did, so I asked what the first rule of aiming a gun was. He said know what your shooting at. So how is it he can direct a scouting program if he doesn't know what he is supposed to shoot at. You evmori, aknowledge that first class first year works, "I never siad the FCFY program dosen't work yet you don't use it. In previous posts you admit; you don't follow the unit elections methods, the new scout patrol methods, the youth protection guidelines on harrassment, the advancement policies and procedures. All things explained to the scouts and promised to the scouts in the Boy Scout Handbook. Why for pete's sake do even allow them a book? The other scouter at this meeting offered me his uniform. (a sure sign of a dictatorship scouter). I declined, I don't need another uniform, (let alone one so poorly worn). I explained to him what I want is for him to take training and learn the program he is working so hard to avoid. I am not asking you to be a cookie cutter scouter. (I honestly have no idea what that means). I am inviting you to do things the way they are written in the Boy Scout Handbook and taught in the BSA training guides and resources. You don't have to camp where everyone else camps or cook what every one else cooks or use the same gear everyone else uses. I am asking use to use the same rules we are all supposed to be using. That's what makes us a "program". Same game, same rules, different team owners and coaches. But someday down the road when a scout from the troop you serve meets a scout from another troop, they should have something more in common than their shirts looked similar. I have no doubt you are a well meaning volunteer, but if I was buiding a house I would want a carpenter who read and followed the blueprints not just someone who meant well. I see no point in responding to you directly in the future, as I said at the beginning we are worlds apart and at this point I see that as a good thing. Bob White Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Korea, I think a balanced discussion is good. You bring up some very common concerns, I'd like an opportunity to follow up in some of the things you mention many are excellent points and a couple I would like to offer a different vantage point on. 1. Advancement isn't one of the three aims, but it IS one of the eight methods through which we achieve the aims. You are absolutely correct when you say that advancement should not be an end in itself, and as an aside, I think we collectively put way too much emphasis on earning Eagle rank as an ultimate goal in Scouting Absolutely right on all points. Advancement is not an aim, it is just one of 8 methods to reach the aims. because of that we need to not look at it as a goal but rather as a single tool. As one of the 8 methods it is vital that it be used correctly to accomplish it's purpose. The MB program is designed to allow scouts to practice decision making and choosing their own path. Their handbook tells them that they choose their badges. You will find no instruction or implication in any training or resouyrce material that even implies that leaders should tell a scout which MB or how many to work on. You are also correct that some units put way too much emphasis on earning Eagle. Nothing in scouting suggests using Eagles as a measurenment of good troop scouting. It speaks of the qualities of the individual scout not the troop leadership. 2. If it wasn't, why is rank advancement one of the criteria for Quality Unit determination, and why does National rate DEs in part on advancement stats? The QUA shows that a unit has met the minimum requirements that national uses to judge the health of a unit. Troop programs are to creating opportunities for scouts to learn and to put what they learn to practical use. Good leadership catches the scouts doing things correctly and signs their advancemnt. A good program introduces MB topics in a way that sparks a scout's interest in looking deeper into the topic as an individual, setting personal goals and working to accomplish them. The QUA is looking to see if your troop program is functioning in this way. Why does National rate DEs in part on advancement stats? It doesn't. DE's are not measured on scout advancement. they are measured on Increase in youth served, adult volunteers, Growth in # of units and financial health. 3. a Scout who isn't advancing at the same approximate rate as his peers is more likely to leave the movement That is true to a point. That point appears to be First Class. That is why the emphasis is on First Class First Year. From there on from there on you can expect an active scout to advance one rank every 12 to 18 months, if they choose to. Remeber we are trying to get the scouts to develop there own motivation. it will be different for different scouts. Some will be motivated by peers as you suggest. Others will want to please parents, or a scout leader, or be an Eagle like Grandpa. Others will have career goals that they know will be helped by a successful scouting backgraound. The skillful SM will learn what makes each individual tick and use that to encourage the scout to go on. Others may just like the outdoors and understand and accept the scouting ideal. A boy who leaves the program at 18 as a First Class Scout, who knows how to take care of himself and others, who is a good citizen with strong morals, is a terrific scout. The program has worked. He doesn't need to be Star, Life or Eagle to have enjoyed scouting or for us to look at him and be proud of who he is and how we helped him develop. 4. take care of the methods, Mr. Scoutmaster, and the methods will take care of the aims... Absolutely correct. Pay attention to the 8 methods, the rules of the game that make scouting unique among all other organizations. There in fact is where the core of my frustration resides with some of our fellow posters (I do not include yo in that). They admit they don't use the methods then they want to tell others how to scout. If you aren't doing the things that we tell the boys in their handbooks they will get to do in scouting, then you aren't scouting. Just because you do things in a scout uniform does not make it scouting. The handbook says they will operate as a boy lead patrol, that they will elect their own leaders, that they will choose their own Merit Badges, that they will hike and camp and canoe, that they will earn First class in about a year, that they will be rub by the PLC and that the SM will train them how to do it, not tell them what to do. It's important that we keep the promise. The advancement method is about how to teach and how to reward and recognize. It is not about how to assign MBs, refuse MBs or stifle an individuals curiosity or goals. 5. all need some counseling to reach the nirvana of independent decision making you refer to We agree completely. They all need counseling. But all couseling ends with the counselor asking "what is your decision." it is not the counselor's role to say "here is what you are going to do", or even "here is what you should do". Counseling should walk the scout through his own thought process and allow the scout to make his own choice. So you see we are not that far apart. Baden-Powell said "Train them, trust them, let them lead". That leading is not always about leading others, it's also about learning to lead themselves. Your friend in scouting, Bob White

Koreas scouter, I have great respect for your scoutmastership that I have read in these posts. This is one of the few portions we differ on. As too your recent example with the scouts two options...Keep in mind that rank advancement is not an aim of scouting, it is a learning opportunity for the boy. One that he is allowed to choose for himself. whether the group of badges put him in line for his next rank advancement is of no matter to the goals of the progaram. What is important is the independence and that the scout is developing and the opportunity to exercise making his own decisions, as well as following his own interests. Bob White

Actually Korea nothing in the the BSA says a boy cannot ask for 15 merit badge cards. keep in mind there is no time limit for MB completion other than the boy's 18th Birthday. in addition, look at real life, has a boy ever asked you for 15 MB cards? I Doubt it. Maybe somewhere at sometime a scout has done it but it would be a rarity. But lets say a boy does ask for them. if he has the interest what is the harm in his attempt. Be happy he has a plan. All you are out is a few minutes of writing your signature. If the scout earns them all that's great. if he earns a few that's good too. If he starts on some and learns he is not ready to complete them, that's OK the program allows that (no deadline until 18 remember). This is a no loss situation. We are supposed to be creating learning opportunities not limiting them. Why work so hard to get boys interested in scouting subjects only for them to say "OK lets go!" and you to say "NO!"? Besides except for Summer camp most scouts rarely ask for more than 1 or 2 cards at a time. Remember they have other things happening in their lives as well. Don't sweat a few blue cards. Encourage the boys to follow their interests and let them choose their own advancement path. As far as the MB counselor, you are correct on some points. You cannot reverse a MB advancement once the card is signed. It is presumed that the counselor is expert enough to make the decision and a SM blessing is not required. However, if you know of a MB couselor who is not doing the job correctly you do not need to wait until the unit recharters. MB counselors are registered with the council not the unit (although they can choose to only work with a specific unit) you can contact the council advancement committee anytime regarding a MB counselor's credibility of performance. Keep in mind scouting was not designed to make the SM the boss in charge of everything. There are parts of a scouts activity not in the SM's control. MB's are one such area. Happy Scouting, Bob White

Ed, As I said I have a new project that has made it difficult for me to contact national during business hours, I leave soon for Philmont, and may or may not contact national by then. I don't know if they have current statistics or not. I know there were studies done prior to FCFY emphasis and I know how successfull it has been for units I have seen use it. Although it is the method of scouting described in the Boy Scout handbook, the SM handbook, the PL handbook, the SPL handbook, SM Leader Specific Training and The Advancement Procedures Policies and Procedures manual, don't let that sway your opinion. You keep doing it whatever way you want. I'm confident you know more about scouting than any number of qualified people who have designed the program over 92 years. Best of Luck, Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I agree with netscouter. I don't see the connection between hacking and stalking. A firewall will do nothing as far as youth protection that I am aware of. Bob White

It's not blind obedience if you understand and accept the reasoning behind the rule. The majority of scouts and scouters do. Bob White