Bob White

Ok here is the historical (or perhaps hysterical) background on the tab colors. Many years ago, for about 30 years or more(and ending in the 60s) scouts wore knee socks with their uniform pants and shorts. These socks, as was the fashion at the time, were held up by garters that rolled up under the cuff of the knee sock. Hanging off the garter was a fringed cloth tab. The tabs were a different color for each of the scouting programs that wore the socks. Red for Exploring, Green for Boy Scouts. When service stars were introduced they were given backgounds that matched the tabs. Green for Boy scouts and red for explorers, yellow was selected for cubs (Blue and Gold theme), light blue for adults. Several years later when the garters and tabs were dropped and the current uniform was introduced, the shoulder tabs took on the colors of the uniform shirts (sort of). Blue was chosen for cubbing to reflect the blue uniform, dark green for explorers to represent the dark green shirts they were recognized for, and red for boy scouts since explorers had green, and green and red were the boy scout colors. Gold tabs selected to represent national level volunteers and professionals. Silver for district and council. When Varsity scouting was introduced they got orange tabs, but a brown star since Tigers already had orange. When Venturing replaced Exploring they inherited the green tabs and the red service stars. Could the shoulder tabs have followed the service star backgrounds? Sure, but Oscar de le Renta, the fashion designer who was paid many many dollars to design the new uniform, decided otherwise. The tabs and service stars have now been in use for decades and it seems unnecessarry to change them now. By the way Tiger years are no longer shown on the orange background. Since Tigers is now a regular den in the pack their year is reflected on a yellow service star like the other cub years. WHILE WE ARE ON THE TOPIC I've noticed cub leaders wearing youth service stars to represent their years as cub leaders and some scout leaders wearing youth service to show their years as a troop leader. Lets check the insignia guide folks ! It's youth stars for youth years and the adult (light blue backgroud) to show adult years OR adult and youth years combined, in which case you do not wear the youth stars. I hope this explained why the colors are what they are. Bob White By the way as far as the silver awards go they used to all be done in real silver. The Eagle Award, the silver palms, Silver Beaver, Silver Antelope, Quartermaster Award, were all in solid silver. Silver was affordable and valued. Solid gold was impractical. The military sequence may have something to do with it as well.

It should be available at your local scout service center or on-line at www.scoutstuff.org it is publication #WW33588 and costs $7.95. Bob White

Venturer2002, the key to the success of First Class First Year is the troop program. In a troop that uses FCFY correctly, advancement takes place naturally as the scout participates. If you were active and did not make 1st Class in 12 to 14 months it was not due to your focus, it was due to the troop program not setting up the learning and application phases of advancement so that as you participated you commpleted the requirements. Bob White

A word of warning ASM7, There is no attendance requirement for advancement in the Boy Scout Handbook and no person or unit can to or subtract from the advancement requirements, according the the BSA policies on advancement. Some think that they can do it as a part of the show scout spirit requirement but that is incorrect. That requirement as explained in the Boy Scout Handbook refers to the scout displaying the scouting ideals of the Oath and Law in his everday life. Please review the rules on advancement in the Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual. I think you will clearly see that what the unit is doing is in violation of the national policies. Bob White

scoutparent, I apologize, I shouldn't write posts at 3 a.m. The Rule of four is as you wrote two adults two boys MINIMUM. I do feel things you wrote, such as possibly being obsessive because I attend most of the campouts my son's troop takes, as pretty outrageous. Im the Assistant Scoutmaster, I'm expected to be there, I have a responsibility to be there! The other assistants feel the same way. You have taken opinions that Scoutperson asked us to offer and taken them way too personally! No one has attacked him . It is obvious that the vast majority of us see two deep as a minimum not as the standard the Scoutperson suggests. We see safety in numbers and an opportunity to promote family bonds. We have learned how to use parental resources and control their participation so that it does not interfere with the boys. AND YES the troops I have been in have all promoted patrol activities free of adult involvement. I still contend that restricting or discouraging adults from attending is contrary to the rules of youth protection, and recommend that the troop scoutperson serves re-evaluate that policy. So take a chill pill, relax and take part in the conversation, but no one has tried to attack anyone in this string, your tone however is out of line. Bob White

Venturer2002, You are correct, My original post in this string was made before the new SPL book was released in our council, and was based on the information in the lates Insignia Guide manual. The NEW Spl Handbook does indeed have new info on what hats and shirts can be worn with official pants orshorts, official beltand official socks and still be "in Uniform". Another example that we are a "movement" not an 'organization". Bob White

Two-deep leadership is the minimum not the maximum! Read the rules for backcountry and the minimum increases to four. Saying "no you can't come" is denying access. If they can visit anytime, then why not let them stay anytime? It's like telling a parent they can't come to a little league game to watch their kid play. The parents don't play the game, and they don't send a message to their children that they don't trust their baseball ability because they came to watch. Too many parents settle for "being aware of where their boys are" rather than being there with them. As an Asst. Scoutmaster I make almost every campout. My son thinks it's great that I am involved in the things he likes to do. I spend very little time with him except for moments around a campfire or when we teach skills together, but he still enjoys the time we spend together. Why should only the scout leaders get to have that special connection with their kids. I welcome any and every parent that wants to spend time watching their kids grow and mature. We agree that scouts develop by getting to do things themselves. Just because a parent is there doesn't mean the scouts can't act independently. "Actions speak louder than words", we agree again. If you want scouts to grow up understanding the importance of family then let scouting be a family friendly activity. Bob White (Good Night)

Scoutparent, One of the safeguards in the Youth Protection program, and it is memtioned in the video training that as a parent and leader you should view at least once every 36 months, is the open door policy of scouting. You CANNOT deny a parent or legal guardian attendance to any scouting activity. That does not mean they have to participate, but you cannot restrict them from being present. If a parent wants to come observe his son's scout group on a campout you cannot say no. You can set boundaries as to their involvement based on their skill, experience and training, but you cannot say no. Bob White

Atchmom, I think if you check you will find that the District Advancement Chair gets the advancement report from the council service center. The council offfice is responsible for the permanent record keeping of membership and advancement for all districts in the council. Most councils will not sell rank awards until they have received the advancement paperwork from the unit. Bob White

dan, Remember, you have resources other than the SM handbook! You can find the most recent version of the First Class Tracking sheet in the Troop Program resources manual. It will be at least a 1998 printing which means you will need to edit out the the First Class swimming requirement that is no longer used. There are also versions available on the Internet. Best of luck, Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

ctablock, You're right to a point. 1) First recognition-The SCOUT earns his rank once he has passed the troop's BOR (except for the Eagle) and he should get verbal recognition that night. The board should sign the rank advancement paperwork immediately and send it to council for the badge and pocket certificate. 2) Second recognition-- at the next troop meeting the SCOUT should get the badge if it is back from council-or-get a verbal recognition in front of the troop (sometimes this happens on BOR night but not all troop do BORs on troopp nights) 3) 3rd recognition (sometimes 2nd) The scout should be presented the badge of rank ASAP! DO NOT wait for the Court of Honor! The boy might have to wait 3 months for a COH by then he could earn another rank and never get a chance to display his previous one. 4) final recognition--at the next COH give the scout the pocket certificates for his achievements since the last COH. Just because council wants good records that is not a bad thing and there is no need to wait until a COH to present the badge. Bob White

That still entitles him to wear a Philmont patch, just not the arrowhead patch. The arrowhead is a symbol of participation on a trek. However he can wear the Philmont Family Camp or the Philmont Training Center Patch. He can even wear the Philmont longhorn on a red jack-shirt. I hope he would wear his Philmont patch. the Philmont Training Center and its family activity program are outstanding. Maybe those scouts asking about it will encourage their scouter parents to go to PLC on a family vacation. Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

KUDOS to Fscouter and k9gold-scout! They are right on the money! Bob White

Scoutparent and scoutperson, No on questioned the ability of the scouts in the troop. The converstaion has centered around Scoutpersons opinion that there should only be two adults on a campout, and that is not true. First of all that is poor youth protection planning. Scouting recommends at least 4 adults so that if a youth or adult is injured and two adults travel to a medical facility there is still two adults with the troop. Secondly, scoutperson says they limit adults, using a Philmont trek as an example. Well scoutperson didn't limit the adults...Philmont did. Philmont set the adult limits and have enough staff (over 900) that there is still a huge number of adults around in case of emergencies (yet you don't see them getting in the way of the boys fun). Thirdly we are an open program and a family program. Having parents along doesn't mean that the boys can't have fun. Being there doesn't mean being in the way. Many excellent examples of the benefits of more adults participating have been presented in this string. What Scoutperson is doing in restricting adults is risky, not needed and very likely a violation of youth protection. I strongly urge you to open your doors to more parental involvement on outings. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Maddoro, The only communication required between the two Troops is the transferform with the advancement information. I have never heard of a report or a council office tracking transfers. There is a monthly report to the DEs and District Commissioners tracking current youth membership and any exodus of scouts from a troop can be easily seen. Bob

Again, I agree, with Mike. jbroganjr, I based my response on the info you provided in your first two posts. You never said this was one day out of the year or that the the current PLC determined the uniform. More info could have produced a different response. Bob

netscouter, At your invitation I visited your website. I was a little surprised at what I saw for someone as insistent about the "full" uniform as you. Granted everyone has the same neckerchief on, however... There are photos of scouts in uniform with a JLT patch in a location specifically reserved for a National Jamboree participation patch. Scouts with a temporary patch on the left hand pocket where the rank should be. Adults with youth patrol patches on their sleeves. and scouts with Troop numerals in too low of a location. I also noticed that not everyone wore the same belt (also a uniform pieces which has optional choices available). That made me curious as to why it is so important that the scouts all dress alike except for their belts? Now you have a great site, and it looks like your uniform infractions have not kept you from having a very active and interesting program. Why should another unit that wears a correct uniform though not identical, be any worse off than your unit in a nearly identical but incorrect uniform? My point is that when it comes to the uniform the emphasis should be less about dressing alike, and more about dressing correctly. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

netscouter, Learning the importance of good grooming is more important than all looking identical. Nowhere does the scouting program ask, require or suggest, that every scout in the troop should dress identically. How does dressing identically help develop character, citizenship or fitness? dan, I agree that hats and neckerchiefs are a troop option and the troop should decide. But this boy's troop didn't decide. The boys in the troop 5 years ago made the decision. If you want the current troop to wear the identical uniform it should be their decision and their choice of uniform options. shouldn't it? Bob White

You misunderstood me netscouter. I never said do not wear a full uniform. I said that a correct uniform is equally as important. The scout he described was in a correct uniform. Perhaps, he was not in the troop mandated uniform, but then again that uniform was determined by a different group of scouts 5 years ago. If you want the scouts to dress alike they should have a say in what "alike" is. It is the same in god management in an all adult setting. People want a chance to decide some things for themselselves. The BSA leaves some uniform parts to the option of the troop. The should make its decisions through the PLC. 'Todays' PLC not the PLC 5 years ago. Bob White PS Netscouter, Even the BSA does not require scouts or scouters to be "in Full Uniform ALL the time". Try water skiing in a full uniform! Not very practical. Let's be less worried about wearing it "all the time" and more concerned about wearing it "correctly at appropriate times".(This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

jbroganjr, OK, here is just my opinion. first I am glad you support the use of a complete uniform, and that you try to help make it possible for everyone to afford and own a complete uniform. Here is where I think you are having trouble. Try being more open to a scout wearing a correct uniform rather than the the one ordered by a troop policy. The boy wearing the shirt, belt, pants or shorts, and socks and any neckerchief is in a correct uniform. There are lots of choices in hats and neckerchierfs that are currently available and in styles that boys enjoy wearing that forcing them to wear one particular one (especially outdated ones or ones chosen by other 5 years ago). Getting scouts to dress alike in t-shirts, hats or neckerchiefs should be more a matter of espirit d'corps than mandate. Spirit will will generate team apparrel not the other way around. Mom was part right by the way when she said that a neckerchief is not required with a short sleeve shirt. In fact a neckerchief is not required with any shirt. BSA uniform does not require any neck wear to be complete. Don't misunderstand me, I am all for a troop uniform, I just think you are trying to achieve it with a heavy hand. Let the current scouts decide what the current hat and neckerchief should be, if any. They have as much right to choose their look as the scouts 5 years ago did (assuming it was the scouts who chose it ). One last thing. i do not understand the comment "At camp, it was amusing to me to see this kid not have any answer to older scouts when asked about being selected for a philmont trip." I have never heard of a scout being selected to go to Philmont. Philmont is there for all eligible scouts to attend by their choice. Only adults at the Philmont Training Center are there by invitation. Right? Bob White

jbroganjr, Before I give my full answer I will need to know what your troop policy considers a full uniform. Bob

Check your e-mail OGE, I sent a reply. Bob

OGE brings up a very important point. Barring parents or guardians from a scout event is a violation of the youth protection policies and is forbidden in the BSA. There are times (specifically in high adventure) when the number of adults participatiing are restricted, but you cannot tell a custodial parent or legal guardian that they cannot attend an activity.

Ditto the ground rules that Mike Long uses. Bob White

Ozemu, No one denies that the program has scouting has something to offer both sexes, it is just the unique, informal, relationship between our two organizations. Both sides feel that a totally coed program could damage the GSA and that is not our goal. Both programs have a purpose and neither wants to harm the other. Call it professional courtesy if you will. It's not as if the female population does not have a program, they just don't have the 6 year old to 13 year old BSA program available. That situation is not expected to change in the near future according to the panel we spoke with. Bob