Bob White

Ed, If you are a bad leader (as you profess) it is only because you have proven tools at your disposal that you refuse to use. It seems you would rather lose scouts and not see the program grow than use all the resources available in order to improve. There is a reason why some troops have 30+ and grow over ten years and some don't go beyond 10 or 12 scouts in the same period of time. You have been given the resources to grow. The program works. The more you use the better it works. One thing about leadership, you can always improve, all it takes is a willingness to grow. Best of luck, Bob White

The behaviour guidelines of scouting are spelled out in the Scout Oath and Scout Law, I have never found the need for anything further. The job of disciplining a scout is the parents not the unit leaders. The Guide to Safe Scouting sys that discipline problems are to be given to the parents to resolve. We give training on positive behaviour, we can give structure to help scouts learn good behaviour, BUT it is not our role to punish scouts. The role of the troop committee is to give administrative support to the troop program. See the Troop Committee Guide book. Youth and adult members are registered members of the BSA and of the youth program of scouting that is OWNED by the Chartering Organization. Because of that they can only have their membership removed by those two entities. Committee members are responsible for Boards of Review and can certainly take that opportunity to help influence the attitude and behavior of a scout. They are responsible for bringing unwanted behaviour to the attention of the parents and working out an acceptable behaviour for the scout to display at scouting events. They can arrange periods of suspension if needed to resolve problems. But only the Charter Organization or the BSA can remove membership. Why don't you see alot of material on this topic? Because that's not what scouting is about. We don't train leaders to be disciplinarians. They don't need to know how to punish anyone. We say "here are the ideals of scouting, teach them every week through repitition, stories, activities, the patrol method". If a boy doesn't want to behave like a scout, send him home. Let his parent(s) fullfill their responsibility. When he is ready to act like a scout then he can participate in scouting. Always remember that scoutmaster means a master of scouting skills, not a master of scouts. If their is someone "in charge" of the troop it's the Senior Patrol Leader, not the adults. A Scoutmaster or Assistant Scoutmaster has two primary responsibilities 1)Train junior leaders, and 2)know and understand the needs and characteristics of each boy. Boys want leaders they can respect for their positive traits, not be in fear of. Give scouts a fun, exciting, hands on, program so that having to miss even one meeting is the worst punishment they can imagine. Bob White

Baden-Powell said "a boy is not a sitting down animal". That is the best rule of thumb for scout activities that I can offer. Troop meetings need to have time to do Troop and/or patrol business but you have to keep the energy and the attention span of a scout age boy in mind. Active time needs to be greater than sitting time, and you need to change the activity every 10 or 15 minutes (20 minute maximum if the activity will support it.) Remember the see-saw of leadership. On one end is Keep the group together (fun and morale) and on the other end is Get the job done (tasks). The goal of good leadership is to keep the see-saw balanced. Too much fun and the work doesn't get done. Too much work and the activity ceases to be enjoyable, the scouts will not want to attend or cooperate. You need to understand your scouts to know when to shift the the load to keep the see-saw balanced. As far as what activities to do BP reminds us that "a good fisherman fishes with bait the fish like to eat not the food the fisherman likes to eat". If leaders do the activities that they think will be fun, they will end up with a program that only the adults enjoy. Boys learn by touching and doing. Remind the Scoutmaster of that. Good Luck, Bob White

Sorry Scoutpro, but we are going to disagree on this one. 50% is way too low, and scout age boys crying not to go on outings should be raising some real red flags. Consider your "incentive" program. Telling boys they can't participate and then saying that they don't participate enough to advance is ironic. What if instead of making them ride with the adults, you let them hike with their patrol so that they could work on a number of Tenderfoot to First class requirements? Rather than send them to bed earlier why not let them stay up and use the time to teach a skill or test a skill or have a motivational talk with them? Instead of using rank to determine eating order, (If they are cooking by patrols, how is that even possible?) why not encourage the patrol leaders to work out duty rosters that allow scouts who need cooking requirements can get them done? The best incentive program for advancing is the positive reinforcement they get when they accomplish something, not the negative reinforcement they are given when they don't accomplish something. Parents and kids will make time for the things they enjoy doing. As Bill Hillcourt used to say "You have to be the best show in town". I grant you it's a challenge but it is doable when we follow the program. By the way I never said I had a top troop. In fact I do not have a troop. My son has a troop. I serve his troop as an Assistant Scoutmaster for the New Scout Patrols. The troop currently has 14 new scouts (2 patrols). All but two joined in February the others in April. All are tenderfoot. The 8 going out this weekend will come back ready for their Scoutmaster Conferences and Board of Reviews for Second Class. The rest will finish on their next campout. None are more than 3 requirements from First Class. No one has quit, attendance varies from week to week. Almost everyone is in a sport or band. All own computer games. Some have one parent some have two, one lives with the grandparents. Some parents help, some don't. I have taught maybe three skill presentations. The two Troop Guides have done all the others. My job is to work with the guides on the annual plan to determine what skills get taught when and how we create application opportunities to test the scout's skill. It's nothing magical or extraordinary on my part that makes this work. It's the scouting program. We follow it works. I've used first class first year for over twenty years as a troop leader I have never seen more than 10% loss of new scout (or old for that mater)in any year. Again it's not me, it's the program. It's explained in the books and in training, and it works. Bob White

I agree with Mike and rlculver, 1,3,5,6,7,8,9 and 10, are not program problems, they are leadership problems caused by not using the resources of the program. 2, Is a localized problem and usually only temporary. nationally iit has been a jojuicy media item but in reality has had little effect or no effect on the national program. 4,is a non issue I feel, When you consider the total membership of the scouting program there are few negative events covered by the media. There are probably more Eagle scout announcements in newspapers nationwide every week than there are negative items. The negative for the most part is on one politically hot topic that one particular group keeps alive. I don't disagree with the areas of concern that scoutpro raises just with who is responsible. It's not a flawed program, it is local unit volunteers not using the program. Bob White

I'll let the scouts and parents in the troop you serve determine the quality of your leadership. I can say that if you followed the program as presented in the Boy Scout Handbook and Scoutmaster training (which includes New Scout Patrols and First Class Emphasis) you would likely have a better program. I would have to say that since you live in an area as populated as Pittsburgh and average about 12 boys that would raise a red flag to me as commissioner that something is wrong. Perhaps you could try a New Scout Patrol this February and for a year have an Asst, SM focus with them on a FCFY program, you might see some very positive results. The worst that can happen is things will stay the same and you seem very comfortable with that. On the other hand, you might see more boys stay in the program and that I hope would be a good thing for the community. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Eisely, Looking to recycle some past topics? You were involved in a string with the identical title last March. Here is the reprint of my response. It's the best way I can explain it. Bob In most cases Council and District lines are drawn by County and or school district boundaries. Overall size is determined by population density and financial strength. As an example, there is no point in drawing a council/district area over an expanse of land where there are few scouts (mountains) or enough income to finance camps and services. The who that makes the decision are committees made up of a variety of volunteers and professionals at local, regional and national levels. When it happens depends on many things, local school and government consolidations. Scout Councils going broke, Population shifts, can all cause scout boundaries to be re-evaluated. Hope this helps, Bob White

Scout Pro, Having visited nearly 100 or more troops in multiple councils, I can say with complete confidence that if the scouts you serve are not presented a program that offers the learning and application of all the requirements for First Class in or near the first 12 months, then you have a weak scouting program. If they are not advancing then they are not learning, doing, or attending or staying. All trademarks of a weak program. I never equated the scout resources with the Bible. They are more like a recipe book. There is room for different seasonings to customize the dish, but there are also key ingredients that if changed will completely alter the outcome. Example.. An apple pie without apples is no longer an apple pie. Even if you put a familiar crust over it so that it looks like an apple pie it still isn't. Even if it still tastes good, it's not an apple pie. Continueing to call it an apple pie is a misrepresentation of the actual content. There is room in the methods of scouting for local customization, but there are also key elements that if removed or not used, alters it from being a scouting program. Even if you wear a scout uniform, so that it looks like scouting scouting. Even if it's a "good" program, if it does not use the scout methods and accomplish the 3 aims of scouting IT'S NOT scouting. Scouting is specific methods for a specific purpose. Ignore the methods, or miss the aims and it's not scouting, no matter how much camping you do, or how many Eagles you have, or how many years you have been doing it. You cannot just brush off the training and literature of the BSA, they contain the promise and methods of scouting. They tell the how we do what we do and why we do it. They are the road maps of the program. Bob White

rlculver, You are correct in how badges can shift from required to elective after the scout receives his Life rank. We see the same trend as far as MBs being earned. I think it has a lot to do with the attitude presented by the adult leaders. In my son's troop we do not push Eagle required badges. We encourage the scout to follow his interests and treat all MBs the same. The scout will accumulate the required ones along the way. Because of this we have scouts with 12 or more merit badges by the time they get Star. We also have 5 Eagle Scouts (4 over the age of 16) who remain active in the troop because scouting is fun. They weren't pressured to get certain MBs, they were free to choose what interested them. Bob White

Ed, Ed, Ed, Read the posts, I have refered to the program as First Class Emphasis in most cases. It is also known by, and refered to, as First Class First Year, a term you yourself have used in your posts. Sure a boy can take 2 years or 7 years to reach First Class. The whole point of this thread, and one that most scouters comprehend and accept is..very few boys are going to wait that long. If they don't get to First Class around the end of the first year - they leave. Boys need to learn at their own pace, most boys can absorb and display the skills leading to First Class in about a year. That is a good, active, effective, pace for most boys. Some will finish sooner some later. The program allows for both, but you need a plan, and that plan needs to take into consideration the fact that boys don't want to take two years to learn the basics. If your program doesn't meet those needs then you are not serving the boys the way you think you are. Bob White

Keep in mind AS7 the current rate is the highest in the 90 plus years of the program. It is not a low percentage if you look at the total history of the BSA. Why isn't it higher. A big reason is the tremendous drop of rate following Webelos Crossover through the 1st year of scouting. Much of which is attributed to the large number of units that do not use the New Scout Patrol and First Class emphasis programs. In a previous string many units reported lossing 50% or more of their 1st year scouts every year. That is atrocious! It is also totally avoidable. A program that does not facilitate advancement is not going to hold the attention of a youth member, and bored scouts quit attending. I am reminded of a survey that the BSA did about 10years ago (maybe more) where they followed up on hundred of scouts who, after receiving the Arrow of Light Award, quit Boy Scouts in less than 1 year. They also surveyed the scoutmaster of these scouts. Here is what they found. The top 3 reasons the SM said the boy left was conflicting activities, poor parental support and negative peer pressure.The scouts (ex-scouts) told another story. Their top 3 reasons were 1)Boring troop meetings 2)No adventure 3)No advancement. The lesson is that adults rationalize low mwmbership alot of ways but the reason troops fail to grow or boys fail to advance is POOR UNIT PROGRAM. A leader can make any excuse they want, but boys know why they leave, and units that grow in membership and retain older scouts know why they succeed. Scouts need the the New Scout Patrol to adjust to the social, and operational changes between Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts and to learn the basics of outdoorsmanship so that they are comfortable in the outdoor classroom of scouting. They need to learn those things quickly so that they stay for the adventure and become self-motivated to continue to advance. However as you read in this string, even long time "trained" scouters continue to avoid these methods. The biggest reason I have seen as a unit commissioner is 1) an unwillingness to grow with the program, or 2) lack of understanding of the program due to reluctance to attend training. (As a side note ever notice how some leaders point to their Eagle count as measure of their ability to lead, but point to another troops Eagle count and if exceeds their own then they are labeled a "merit Badge Factory".) The truest measure of course is in the character of a single boy. But if you want to use numbers try these. A)what percentage of 1st year scouts stayed for a second year, B) What percentage of first year scouts reached First Class near the first year, C) What is the retention % of scouts 16 to 18 years old.) Boy's don't advance or stay in a units that don't follow the program. New Scout Patrol and First Class First Year are part of that program. Bob White

B-P never taught the current first aid-skills either. As time progresses the program changes to better serve today's youth. The New Scout Patrol and FC Emphasis help to meet the social and educational and self-esteem needs of the scouts. Where does it say the trail to First Class should be hard? Look at the requirements, unless you are a non-swimmer these are all very basic skills. If taught correctly they are easy to learn and apply. If your program doesn't create all the learning and application opportunities a participating scout needs to reach First Class near their first year then yes, you have a weak program. It will reflect in a high membership loss, poor skills, poor participation, weak patrols and reduced percentage of scouts achieving higher ranks. By the way your Eagle statistics are about a decade old. It's been a long time since only one or two percent reached Eagle. For years it has been 3%. Last year it was over 4% and this year if the current rate continues it will exceed 5%. Bob(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Mick Meyer, The Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures manual can clarify the answer but YES, for Star and life any Eagle required MB can be counted. It is not until you reach life that you must have a psecific amount from certain catagories. At that time you can only use one from certain sets of merit badge options. An example would be for instance..for Star or Life ranks Hiking and Cycling count as two Eagle required merit badges. Once you achieve Life rank you can count either Hiking or Cycling toward your total, but not both. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

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You are correct ASM7, First Class emphasis is a tool just as the other methods of scouting. It is one of the devices we use to achieve the 3 aims of the program. It is one that is described in the Boy Scout handbook, the Scoutmaster Handbook and in Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training. It is designed to help transition from Webelos dens to Boy Scout patrols, retain new scouts, and better prepare them for social interaction with older scouts, as well as give thenm the basic skills for being comforatble camping. It has been part of the scouting program for many, many years. If scouts in a troop do not reach First Class around the time of their first year it is a reflection of weak a program. Scouts do not stay long in weak programs. As evidence to that there are posters on this board who admit to not using FCFY and also admit to a 50% drop off rate. What concerns me to the point of anger is some peoples determination to live with the loss of 50% of new scouts rather than embrace the First Class First Year program. The Patrol Method lays out a troop structure of New Scout patrols, Regular patrols and Venture patrols. FCFY is a central part of the New Scout Patrol. One without the other is pointless. Without the use of the patrol method it just ISN"T scouting. That's not my opinion that is Baden-Powell's, the patrol method is what the entire program is based on. Does any scout resourse say you HAVE TO use the patrol method? No. But without it it is not scouting. So to purposely recuit boys into a program and call it scouting without using scouting methods to me seems like gross misrepresentation. If people want to run their own program that's fine, but have the courtesy to not call it scouting. Bob White

As I explained in the earlier post jbroganjr, since the time of my original post the BSA changed some uniforming guidelines as eveidenced in the NEW Senior Patrol Leader Handbook. It's not that I changed, Scouting changed and I was representing the scouting method not any personal opinion. The SPL handbook has info that will be included in the updates of the other manuals as they are published. The BSA now recognizes troop shirts, summercamp shirts and troop hats, as being "in uniform" WHEN WORN WITH official pants or shorts, belt, and socks. There is still no such thing as Class Bs. You are either in uniform or not in uniform. But the choices for an activity uniform have expanded. Hope this clarifies things, Bob White

If spiralling into mediocrity is your concern yaworsky, then perhaps you should raise your own behaviour to reflect the higher ideals of scouting as reflected in the Scout Law. Traits which, by your insults to the other posters, it would appear you have little regard for in your life. You are demonstrating yourself to be part of the spiral.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

Dan Williamson, The role of the unit committee does not include approving or denying membership. The youth members and adult volunteers are members of the BSA through the unit sponsored by the chartering organization. The charter organization is responsible for membership. The committee can certainly offer recommendations, but they have no authority in this particular matter. I agree that leaving the scout in a hostile environment is counter productive. If the COR cannot calm this situation, it would would be best to move on to another unit.

DDHII, It good to be able able to relate to scouts, but keep in mind who you work with as a commissioner..adult volunteers. If you are looking to work directly with the boys then become a unit volunteer. Being a unit commissioner is about supporting adult volunteers to help them have more successful units. you need to be able to relate to the adults if you are going to be an effective commissiooner. And as stated before, this is not a position your retiring UC can pass on to you. You must be approved by the District Commissioner or an Assistant District Commissioner. Bob White

Sorry OGE, but this isn't playing devil's advocate, it's just bad manners. It is not helpfull, cheerful, friendly, or courteous, and does not belong in the content of these posts. Bob

Thank you OGE. The Boy Scout Handbook says that scout spirit is the boy's use of the values of the Oath and Law in his everyday life. It has NOTHING to do with attendance. Bob White

If the ax is going to fall your friend the COR is the one holding the ax. Only the COR can remove you from the troop. He or she can remove you, or remove the SM, or even better... step in and mediate the problem to a resolution that best serves the scouts. Consider contacting your friend and askiing for a meeting of the SM, you, and the COR to discuss the situation. Bob

Ed, Take a look at the requirements for Tenderfoot to First Class and tell us how a scout can fulfill all the rank requirements without attending ANY events. I think you will answer your own question. (hint- it has nothing to do with scout spirit)(This message has been edited by Bob White)

It may not matter at this point but you didn't mention how the COR felt about your removal. I bring this up because the SM, the CC, and the other committee members have no authority to remove you from the troop. That has to be done by the COR. Assuming that the COR approved this action, there is nothing that can be done. The COR has the authority to take such action. It is impossible for us to know all the ins and outs of the personality clashes through the eyes of just one individual. Whatever caused this action is now past. You need to find out where your son wants to go from here. Hopefully there is another troop nearby where he can complete his scouting experience. I hope things work out for your family, Bob White

OGE, If we are nominating world leaders based on what we have read in these threads, I would have to think that you have the nomination wrapped up. I found yaworski's comment to be completely tasteless and void of dignity. It is unfortunate it had to appear in a scouting arena. Bob White