Bob White

Dan, It is kind of you to offer your time to help train leaders. But unless you intend to present the current training syllabus you are not helping. Remember that Scoutmaster /Asst Scoutmaster Leader Specific Training (BSBLT is a program from over 15 years ago)is not the end of the road for leader training and cannot be all things to all people. It is important that all our leaders begin with a common set of information. Scoutmaster Leader Specific accomplishes that goal. I really don't understand what you mean by real world. Having presented the new syllabus about 6 times now I'm pretty familiar with its contents and find it all to be "real world" as long as you are talking about the real world of troop scouting. Keep in mind that the scouting program is unique among all the youth organizations and operates as no other. But the program taught in Leader Specific Training is the scouting program. As far as the administrative portion of troop operation not being covered you are for the most part correct. the reason beoing that troop administration is the job of the committee chair and committee not the scoutmaster. Troop administartion is covered in The troop committee training Troop Committee Challenge. As far as having the training cover disipline, here a few points to consider. 1)As a new leader if one of the things you are hoping to learn is how to discipline other peoples children perhaps this is not the organization for you. 2)There are far more useful and important things you need to know that this should not be high on your list. 3)Before you learn how to discipline you need to know how to understand the scouts you serve, how to encourage, motivate, teach, reward and develop. 4) No adult leader has ever been remembered (in a positive way) because of their fine ability to discipline. The "real world" of scouting is in the training syllabus. The challenge those of us who train have is getting people to accept the fact that it is the scouting methods that make real scouting possible. Bob White Stirring the pot is fine as long as you stick to the recipe.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I don't know for sure. Perhaps commissioned would have been a better choice of terms. Whether money was involved or not he was asked and he said yes. Had he said no someone else would have said yes. for all we know Oscar wasn't the first one asked back then, he was simply the first to say yes. Bob

I wonder if...it has any really bearing on anything. First of all someone exactly like Oscar de la Renta was hired to design the uniform and he said yes. Secondly if someone like dela Renta said no, then it would suggest that someone unlike de la Renta would say yes. I mean it's not as if no one will take money from the BSA to design a uniform. There may be businesses out there that would would use scoutings values as an excuse to not give the BSA money, but I have yet to hear of a company that refused to take money away from the BSA. Bob White

Despite what I'm sure are the best of intentions on Yaworski's part his advice to you was incorrect. The fact that there are no punishments for wearing an incorrect uniform does not validate changing the uniform or give you, or yaworski, the authority to change the uniform. The uniform is a trade mark of the BSA and they have the sole authority to regulate its appearance and use. The policies regulating the uniforms are in the BSA's Uniform Insignia Guide. In there you will find that Cubs wear the neckerchief of their rank and no other. They can however wear custom slides as others have indicated. The BSA, to be effective as a national organization, depends on the integrity of those us who volunteer to follow the written program and policies. This is the only way to maintain any level of continuity througout the program. The BSA was not developed to track down and punish uniform violators. Hopefully the program develops youth and adults who follow rules in their home, their community and in the BSA , not out of fear of punishment but because it is a mature and responsible thing to do. Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

There are certain elements of District Roubdtables that I am very comfortable doing jointly. Primarily the meeting night and location, the fellowship time around the refreshments table (10-minutes maximum), and District and Council News (5-minutes maximum)(I no longer say "announcements" on the advice of my therapist after years of trying to get that silly song out of my head). Other than those two portions I strongly urge separate programs even for opening and closing ceremonies. The reason is that Roundtable activities need to be program specific in order to be a benefit to those attending. troop leaders need to see Boy Scout ceremonies and Cub Leaders cub ceremonies and they are very different animals. For obvious reasons the skill presentations and administrative training need to be separate as well. This format is supported in the Roundtable Program Guides, Roundtable Staff Training and at the Roundtable Conferenceds at Philmont Training Center. There are people who want to combine more Roundtable elements for time efficiency, convenience, and from a lack of understanding of the real purpose and structure of Roundatble. What has to be measured and valued above all else is the usefullness of the Roundtable experience on the unit level. If the participants are seeing something that cannot be used at their next meeting then you are wasting their time and yours. So you learned good stuff tim, stick to your covictions and persuade the folks that what your doing is in the best interest of the program. best of Luck, Bob White

Terrific job all around. You had a great mix of elements; Youth input, fun, creative, outdoors, patrol responsibilities, positive reinforcements, advancement. Small wonder it went so well. Sounds like you had a good time too! Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

I would take WB as an ASM. The thing you need to be sure of is that you have completed the basic training for an ASM. 1) New Leader Essentials (2-hours) 2) SM/ASM Leader Specific Training (7 1/2- hours) 3) Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills (1-weekend) Bob White

Exactly OGE, It is program plan with a purpose. It's not a program where you stand behind the scouts and push them to First Class. It is a plan where you lay a trail in front of them and they follow it to First Class. If you lay the trail clearly they will all arrive at First Class in a year. The trick is to stay ahead of them. Know what they need next and give them the opportunities to learn, then apply the skill, and then learn more. Teaching the skill is only 1/3 of the job. Creating the application opportunities is equally important. Being prepared at all times to catch them using the skill correctly and signing the advancement is the final portion. Bob

I haven't gotten my issue yet OGE. I'll get back to you after I get a chance to read it. Bob

You're right Fscouter I misunderstood the question. I agree 5 campouts would meet the Second Class requirement 2a. Thanks for shaking my cobwebs loose. Bob

Oops! Make that isn't this a good thing?

1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...10 Hi Ed, hi Scoutpro, Let's try a different way to look at things. Let's not talk about about good leaders or bad leaders, policy or program options. Let's talk about boys. The main purpose of this board I would hope is to help each other have more successful scouting programs for the youth we serve. I would hope you agree that the more youth who participate in scouting the better for the community. I live in a rural community (one of the largest corn producing areas in the country), my son's troop has no "feeder" pack. The parental make-up is widely varied. There are about 38 troops in our district. The vast majority are in the town we live in where my son's troop meets. Only a couple of the troops are sponsored by the school district. My sons troop has 39 boys and growing (and there are other this size). In the last two years I know of no scout who left this troop before the age of 18. We have 14 in 2 New Scout Patrols, 0% drop-off and we will again have 100% reach First Class in their first year. We go to summer camp, we go to high adventure camp. We camp nearly every month in the year. We meet the the requirements for Quality Unit Award. We have about 12 trained and registered committee members and 4 assistant scoutmasters. We never do entire Merit Badges as a troop and yet we have Scouts earning Merit badges and advancing to upper ranks constantly. Isn't this not a good thing? If your unit wasn't growing to serve more youth, if 50% left in the first year on a regular basis, if your scouts didn't stay till they were 18, wouldn't you want to know how to improve for the sake of the boys? I would hope you would want to do whatever you could to get and keep more boys in scouting. All I'm offering is a way to do that. It's not MY WAY of doing things, its the scouting way of doing things. I'm not saying change the way scouting works, I am saying "if you change your ways-scouting works". The methods that will allow you to serve more boys and keep them longer is explained in the methods of the scout handbook and other scouting resources. What possible reason is there for not employing all the given tools, if there is even a chance that it might make for better scouting for the boys you serve? Why would you want to accept 50% success in anything, when there are methods available to you to achieve 80% 90% or even 100%? Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

ScoutPro, I honestly don't know where to start. 1)I'm not a big fan of measuring leadership ability by how long you have done it. I've seen leaders be in scouting for 3 years and do a great job. I've seen others go decades with no visible skill at all. So tenure means nothing, I have to evalute on performance and results. I know from my experience that the program works, and it has been my experience that it works 90% of the time or better. 2)If Scouts are attending they should reach First Class near the first 12 months. If the 50% that aren't making it have been showing up then it falls to the training axiom "if the learner hasn't learned then the teacher hasn't taught". The fault lays with the teaching method not the scouts. If the problem is 50% attendance for the year then the problem lies with the troop program, if it isn't fun they aren't gonna come. Up to this point I'm not judging your specific unit, I giving my accessment of the success of the program based on my experiences. Now I'm judging your program! 3)if your not a certain rank, you do not have the skills (or proven the skills) to hike alone with a patrol which is guided by a youth Give me a break, hiking is just walking. You mean that a boy who is 10 1/2 or older lacks the skill to walk? In addition the Scoutmasters job is to train junior leaders, if the junior leaders cannot lead 6 or seven people on a walk then the SM isn't doing much training. When you were 11 you never went walking with other kids without adult supervision? You're not dangling a carrot, your sucking the fun out of their program until they show you what you want to see. (Cope is a bad example its not a hike! OA is a bad example as well. It has nothing to do with being able to walk with your patrol) While on a hike they could have learned or been tested on any of the following Tenderfoot-5,7,8,9,11,12b,13 Second Class 1a,1b,2e,4,5,6b,7a,10 First Class 1,2,4a,4c,4d,6,7a,8a,8c,8d,9a,11 You want to know why you might have 50% not advancing? How many were made to ride in the car? 3) What merit badge book are you using? There is no requirement in the cooking merit badge that says a scout must cook for the entire troop. In fact the largest group he must cook for is himself and two other boys. And I never knew that Uncle Sam at at McDonalds in Viet Nam. I have great respect for people who served in the armed forces but we learned a lot of important lessons in Viet Nam, I hope one was that jungle tactics have no place in the Boy Scouts of America. 4)"Ive had kids show up for an outing crying, kicking, and screaming they didnt want to go" I have never had, seen of, or heard of, a boy scout crying, kicking and screaming not to go to camp before. And you say it has happened more that once. So yes, I have missed the point and to be perfectly blunt so have you. If you have scouts displaying this behaviour something is terribly wrong in your activities. 5)I don't know what you mean by pencil whipping in Tenderfoot to First Class Advancement. I always understood pencil whipping as a teacher trying to imprint information through a barrage of written homework and written tests. Where in FCFY is that even possible? 6)Thanks for the offer to visit sometime, but since you have never put any information in your profile I have no idea where your are. On second thought I'm quite sure I don't want to see the scouting you have described. By the way the solution is to deliver the program as it is written in the Boy Scout handbook and taught in Scout Leader training. Regards, Bob White (This message has been edited by Bob White)

ScouterPaul, You need to reaqd each requirement in its entirety and understand that they are working on multiple ranks at once. But they must receive the ranks in ascending order. (They can complete First Class skills as they work toward tenderfoot and Second Class but they cannot receive First Class Until after they have received Tenderfoot and then Second Class.) In order to reach Second Class the scouts must have participated in at least 5 troop or patrol activities outside of the regular troop meetings. 2 of these activities must have been a campout. For first Calss they must have completed a total of 10 troop or patrol activities outside of the regular troop meeting a total of 3 must have been campouts. That means between the time they joined and the time they become first class a scout must camp a minimum of three separate times. If you look at the tenderfoot through First Class requirements there are specific things that must be done during these campouts. Tenderfoot requirements 2, 3 Second Class requirements 2a, 2b, 2c, 2g First Class requirements 3, 4e, There are other requirements that can be taught and tested on campouts , but the ones I listed above can ONLY be done while camping. All other requirements can be done on day activities or at troop or patrol meetings. Hope this helps, Bob White

Scoutmom, Your doubleposts are quite probably caused by double clicking on the submit button or by hitting ENTER after putting in your username and password and then hitting Submit. Try getting in the habit of single clicking on submit only OR just hitting ENTER after you put in your username and password. If this doesn't work consider using the edit function to go into one of the posts and erasing its content. Hope this helps, Bob White

Often times packs wait until after they have their round-up nights to recruit leaders and get den meetings started. Most often then not the recuitment works like this... (Cubmaster) "We need someone to be the __________leader(fill in the age group or rank of choice). If No one volunteers then your kids just won't be able to be in cubs this year. So come see me after the meeting if you are willing to do it". Sound familiar? Consider a different tactic. Your current Den Leaders probably know someone looking to join the pack this year. Have them identify people that they feel would be good den leaders and go ask them to join the leadership team now. Have their friends come with you when you invite them to join. They can share the work and rewards of being a scout leader with the prospective leader. That way when you organize dens you can introduce the Den Leaders. The parents will be impressed by the organizational abilities of the pack leadership and be more inclined to help when they see things have a structure to them. Another big advantage is that it takes less time to get that first meeting scheduled so the boys have a program waiting for them as soon as they join. And as Red Green would say "Hang in there. Remember, we're all in this together!" Bob White(This message has been edited by Bob White)

The BSA leaves the agenda to each unit to do what works best for them. However there are a number of resources to help you plan your year's program. The Boy Scout Handbook, The Troop Program Features volumes 1-3, first class teracking Sheet, Troop Program resources, and of course input from the scouts themselves. I'll share the proces I have used as the ASM for New Scout Patrols, maybe it will help. I always start by having the Troop Guides sit down with the new scouts. They explain the advancement process and review the topics that lead to First Class. Then they talk to the scouts about what they would like to learn about first. We always work that into the agenda that the troop Guides and I prepare together. Troop meetings during the first 3 to 4 months consist of teaching how to prepare for camping mixed with skills needed to use at camp. Campouts are where we observe the skills in use and determine if each scout uses the skill correctly or if we need to do more instruction. We also use the time in the outdoors to teach the nature skills and improve camping skills. Summer camp is fun time, we encourage the boys to go have fun. We introduce the merit badge program at this point and encourage the scouts to pick some topics they are interested in and go to the merit badge classes, but the thing we are looking for the most is coming home having had a fun time. They alsways come home with merit badges and most if not all complete all the swimmming requirements through First Class. By this time of the year we are ready to get into map and compass and finish up first aid. Then it is a matter of recycling instruction where needed, teaching them how to teach a skill to others (this is how we get any scouts who are having difficulty get more practice) and we work on Patrol operation and administration. The Troop Guides are beginning to back out and by December everyone should be First Class, and they will elect their first 6-month patrol leader. Hope this brief explanaition helps. Bob White

My apologies on the spelling in the last post. I was heading out the door and did a type and post on the run. Just had a chance to look at it again and saw how badly I butchered the language. Mia culpa, Bob White

Actually the initial uniform of BP and the British scouts was military surplus, and looked the way the way it did for no other particular reason other than that it was readily available to BP and a fashion he was known by. The field uniform looks formal because it is meant for formal occasions. There are now a variety of official activity uniforms available as well as the option of being out of uniform depending on the nature of the activity. The field uniform was not meant to be an all purpose apparel. Bob White

As a cubmaster we had an annual event the boys really liked to do. During the month of november each den made a different Holiday ornament (we had Christian and Jewish members so we did Holiday activities not Christmas activities). Each scout made two, one for his familiy and one for the pack holiday tree. At our December holiday party we decorated the holiday tree (we found that even our jewish families did this at home) and as cubmaster I delivered it to a needy family that was identified to us by the local fire department. The siblings of the cubs decorated another tree with children's winter hats, gloves and mittens. This was given to the Salvation Army. Parents baked cookies and placed a variety into gift bokes that were distributed to needy families by the grade school principal.

It is more a responsibility of the region and Council than National. sice the district boundaries often floow school district lines yo would need to ask "are all school districts the same geographic size and population?" the answer is no. Do all school districts have the same financial make-up? No. There is a recommended ratio of Disrtrict professionals to District population, but even that is a guideline not a rule. The District I live in meets the qualifications in Geographis size and population to have 4 De's. We have 2. The more districts a council has the more administartive costs (professional payroll). The balance is to have enough professionals to get the job done, enough budget to afford good programing, and enough fundraising to pay for both. Bob White

Parents punish, scoutmasters train junior leaders. Scoutleaders develop positive character, parents deal with behaviour problems. Scouts who do not behave, endanger the safety and welfare of others. send them home until they agree to follow the Oath and Law.

Venturer2002, Don't let yourself fall into the trap that many adults do. Older is not always better. Traditional is not always correct. The traditional way to stop bleeding in scouting was to use a tourniquet. The correct way is with direct pressure. A good way to have happy adults and very few scouts is to do things the way the adults did it when they were kids. Boy scouts is for today's kids not yesterday's.

You first need to realize that unless you represent an organization capable of chartering a troop you cannot start a unit. If your intention is to be a scoutmaster of another troop then you should talk to your district executive and see if they are in the process of organizing a unit or if they know of a unit looking for new leadership. If you have other troops in your area, the simpliest thing might be to vist them. Have your son select a troop to join and offer your help as an ASM or committee member. Good Luck, Bob White

Make sure he gets a signed bluecard from his Scoutmaster before he contacts the MB counselor.